Which center should we sign?

[sgrogan]

Given the C's got Theis for dumping Schröder, someone who HAD to go, anything he gave was a net positive in a fairly good way. Was Theis perfect? No. But he did bring a bunch of good stuff when called upon as opposed to the "it's about me getting my numbers" play of Schröder.

Sure.  But he was a long way from the “perfect fit” for our defensive scheme that he was described as.

Passing on useful players because they’re not “switch everything” bigs is silly.

No arguments on that from me.

I'll argue that we should pass on useful players because they’re not “switch everything” bigs. I guess I'm silly.

As of now, we have two great shooters who don't fit in Pritchard and Gallo. They are likely the last two in our rotation despite elite shooting. It will be difficult to hide one more.

If you leave a hole in the “switch everything” defense for too long, that defensive form fails. It is the single most important capability this team has. We do not have a top 5 offensive player, and we win nothing without it.

While I understand many here disagree, I feel good about the fact that all evidence suggests that Stevens and Udoka agree with that defensive commitment.

Not silly, but what is your alternative?

Barring a bigger deal, what do we do?
Rob's out a few games, play Al 38 mpg like in the playoffs?
Do you want to play Al 30 mpg in the regular season? Are you happy having Grant play 36 mins as a big during the regular season?

I've posted about this quite a bit, but I'm fine with the compromises you listed for the regular season. I don't think it would be disastrous to play someone like Kornet or Kabengele for a couple of shifts a game for a few weeks during the regular season, if it came to that. Not ideal, but OK.

I agree that we would be important to get one more big who could play a rotation spot at a playoff level. Sooner is better, but only if they are actually worth playing in the playoffs.

I think our best bet is to wait on disruptive major deals like the possible Durant trade, and make a move then. I expect we will get a chance to act as a facilitator and get someone who could actually help when it matters. We might even be able to make a major move. Durant will make teams do whatever it takes to make a deal work, even if it would be otherwise crazy.

We're probably not going to find a lot of common ground. My "compromises" were meant as extremes.
I'm all for better players, but I think for this team the difference between 53 and 57 wins matters.

[perks-a-beast]

What ever happened to Chinanu Onuaku? It was rumored a few months ago that the Celtics were interested in him, but I haven't heard anything since.

For those who don't know - Onuaku is a 6'11 PF/C who played college ball for Louisville and won the Israeli league MVP last year. He looks pretty [dang] good in his highlight videos; but then again, those are highlights from an overseas league lol.

[Celtics2021]

What ever happened to Chinanu Onuaku? It was rumored a few months ago that the Celtics were interested in him, but I haven't heard anything since.

For those who don't know - Onuaku is a 6'11 PF/C who played college ball for Louisville and won the Israeli league MVP last year. He looks pretty [dang] good in his highlight videos; but then again, those are highlights from an overseas league lol.

He’s having a workout for teams tomorrow in Las Vegas.  The Celtics are one of the teams expected to attend.

[W8ting2McHale]

Is Kabengele looking like a better option than Giles or some of the other retreads available? He certainly will cost less than Noel. Is he as good or better than Zeller? Will he fit in once he learns the defense and improves his passing? Can he do either of those things?

And did I hear the announcer call out Jammin’ Jelly when he dunked on a PnR the other night?

[td450]

Given the C's got Theis for dumping Schröder, someone who HAD to go, anything he gave was a net positive in a fairly good way. Was Theis perfect? No. But he did bring a bunch of good stuff when called upon as opposed to the "it's about me getting my numbers" play of Schröder.

Sure.  But he was a long way from the “perfect fit” for our defensive scheme that he was described as.

Passing on useful players because they’re not “switch everything” bigs is silly.

No arguments on that from me.

I'll argue that we should pass on useful players because they’re not “switch everything” bigs. I guess I'm silly.

As of now, we have two great shooters who don't fit in Pritchard and Gallo. They are likely the last two in our rotation despite elite shooting. It will be difficult to hide one more.

If you leave a hole in the “switch everything” defense for too long, that defensive form fails. It is the single most important capability this team has. We do not have a top 5 offensive player, and we win nothing without it.

While I understand many here disagree, I feel good about the fact that all evidence suggests that Stevens and Udoka agree with that defensive commitment.

Not silly, but what is your alternative?

Barring a bigger deal, what do we do?
Rob's out a few games, play Al 38 mpg like in the playoffs?
Do you want to play Al 30 mpg in the regular season? Are you happy having Grant play 36 mins as a big during the regular season?

I've posted about this quite a bit, but I'm fine with the compromises you listed for the regular season. I don't think it would be disastrous to play someone like Kornet or Kabengele for a couple of shifts a game for a few weeks during the regular season, if it came to that. Not ideal, but OK.

I agree that we would be important to get one more big who could play a rotation spot at a playoff level. Sooner is better, but only if they are actually worth playing in the playoffs.

I think our best bet is to wait on disruptive major deals like the possible Durant trade, and make a move then. I expect we will get a chance to act as a facilitator and get someone who could actually help when it matters. We might even be able to make a major move. Durant will make teams do whatever it takes to make a deal work, even if it would be otherwise crazy.

We're probably not going to find a lot of common ground. My "compromises" were meant as extremes.
I'm all for better players, but I think for this team the difference between 53 and 57 wins matters.

Do you really think you can take on someone like a Whiteside or a Howard, play a completely different defense with your second rotation the whole regular season, then switch back in the playoffs? You can't. That matters too.

I very much hope we can solve for this before the start of the season. That is more likely than not. But I'd rather go with some no-name PF/C guy who has limited offensive skills but can move his feet than some old dinosaur that requires the whole team to play differently. The defense is the priority, especially for that 3rd big.

[Roy H.]

Given the C's got Theis for dumping Schröder, someone who HAD to go, anything he gave was a net positive in a fairly good way. Was Theis perfect? No. But he did bring a bunch of good stuff when called upon as opposed to the "it's about me getting my numbers" play of Schröder.

Sure.  But he was a long way from the “perfect fit” for our defensive scheme that he was described as.

Passing on useful players because they’re not “switch everything” bigs is silly.

No arguments on that from me.

I'll argue that we should pass on useful players because they’re not “switch everything” bigs. I guess I'm silly.

As of now, we have two great shooters who don't fit in Pritchard and Gallo. They are likely the last two in our rotation despite elite shooting. It will be difficult to hide one more.

If you leave a hole in the “switch everything” defense for too long, that defensive form fails. It is the single most important capability this team has. We do not have a top 5 offensive player, and we win nothing without it.

While I understand many here disagree, I feel good about the fact that all evidence suggests that Stevens and Udoka agree with that defensive commitment.

Not silly, but what is your alternative?

Barring a bigger deal, what do we do?
Rob's out a few games, play Al 38 mpg like in the playoffs?
Do you want to play Al 30 mpg in the regular season? Are you happy having Grant play 36 mins as a big during the regular season?

I've posted about this quite a bit, but I'm fine with the compromises you listed for the regular season. I don't think it would be disastrous to play someone like Kornet or Kabengele for a couple of shifts a game for a few weeks during the regular season, if it came to that. Not ideal, but OK.

I agree that we would be important to get one more big who could play a rotation spot at a playoff level. Sooner is better, but only if they are actually worth playing in the playoffs.

I think our best bet is to wait on disruptive major deals like the possible Durant trade, and make a move then. I expect we will get a chance to act as a facilitator and get someone who could actually help when it matters. We might even be able to make a major move. Durant will make teams do whatever it takes to make a deal work, even if it would be otherwise crazy.

We're probably not going to find a lot of common ground. My "compromises" were meant as extremes.
I'm all for better players, but I think for this team the difference between 53 and 57 wins matters.

Do you really think you can take on someone like a Whiteside or a Howard, play a completely different defense with your second rotation the whole regular season, then switch back in the playoffs? You can't. That matters too.

I very much hope we can solve for this before the start of the season. That is more likely than not. But I'd rather go with some no-name PF/C guy who has limited offensive skills but can move his feet than some old dinosaur that requires the whole team to play differently. The defense is the priority, especially for that 3rd big.

The team tried to sign Thomas Bryant.  He's not a switchable big, and yet he was apparently first on our priority list.

[Celtics2021]

Given the C's got Theis for dumping Schröder, someone who HAD to go, anything he gave was a net positive in a fairly good way. Was Theis perfect? No. But he did bring a bunch of good stuff when called upon as opposed to the "it's about me getting my numbers" play of Schröder.

Sure.  But he was a long way from the “perfect fit” for our defensive scheme that he was described as.

Passing on useful players because they’re not “switch everything” bigs is silly.

No arguments on that from me.

I'll argue that we should pass on useful players because they’re not “switch everything” bigs. I guess I'm silly.

As of now, we have two great shooters who don't fit in Pritchard and Gallo. They are likely the last two in our rotation despite elite shooting. It will be difficult to hide one more.

If you leave a hole in the “switch everything” defense for too long, that defensive form fails. It is the single most important capability this team has. We do not have a top 5 offensive player, and we win nothing without it.

While I understand many here disagree, I feel good about the fact that all evidence suggests that Stevens and Udoka agree with that defensive commitment.

Not silly, but what is your alternative?

Barring a bigger deal, what do we do?
Rob's out a few games, play Al 38 mpg like in the playoffs?
Do you want to play Al 30 mpg in the regular season? Are you happy having Grant play 36 mins as a big during the regular season?

I've posted about this quite a bit, but I'm fine with the compromises you listed for the regular season. I don't think it would be disastrous to play someone like Kornet or Kabengele for a couple of shifts a game for a few weeks during the regular season, if it came to that. Not ideal, but OK.

I agree that we would be important to get one more big who could play a rotation spot at a playoff level. Sooner is better, but only if they are actually worth playing in the playoffs.

I think our best bet is to wait on disruptive major deals like the possible Durant trade, and make a move then. I expect we will get a chance to act as a facilitator and get someone who could actually help when it matters. We might even be able to make a major move. Durant will make teams do whatever it takes to make a deal work, even if it would be otherwise crazy.

We're probably not going to find a lot of common ground. My "compromises" were meant as extremes.
I'm all for better players, but I think for this team the difference between 53 and 57 wins matters.

Do you really think you can take on someone like a Whiteside or a Howard, play a completely different defense with your second rotation the whole regular season, then switch back in the playoffs? You can't. That matters too.

I very much hope we can solve for this before the start of the season. That is more likely than not. But I'd rather go with some no-name PF/C guy who has limited offensive skills but can move his feet than some old dinosaur that requires the whole team to play differently. The defense is the priority, especially for that 3rd big.

The team tried to sign Thomas Bryant.  He's not a switchable big, and yet he was apparently first on our priority list.

For what it’s worth, they tried to sign Bryant while Theis was still on the roster.  It’s unclear how much they pursued him after the trade.

[Jvalin]

Guys like Whiteside or Cousins or Howard break our defensive scheme. Any old school post only center will. They also impact team culture, which, if anyone is paying attention, seems to matter some these days.

There is no point in using the TPE for a band-aid. If you can't imagine one of these guys helping win a championship, then why bother? Yes, they might get us a couple of extra wins in the regular season, but they don't get us anywhere in the playoffs. We have the same defense as we had second half of last year, or we don't win the title. Its that simple.

There will be some crazy stuff going down at some point. If we can walk away with an Adebayo (probably the best conceivable guy in the league) or Capela or any other very good to great two way player that can play our defensive scheme, then I'm guessing Stevens will go all in. I doubt we will know about what is available until it happens. What seems available now isn't worth the trouble.

Theis didn't really fit our scheme, either. Very few backup bigs will.  But, Theis helped win us a playoff series. 

And, why downplay a couple of extra regular season wins?  That can change seeding, making our path to a title easier.  Plus, more depth means more rest, meaning a fresher team in the playoffs.

I think that we're likely to get somebody just as good with the vet minimum as with the TPE, so I think it's fine for Brad to let it expire.  But, the hole needs to be filled one way or another.

What are you talking about? Theis is literally the perfect fit in our switch-heavy defensive scheme. I bet this is the only reason he was getting playing time, cause otherwise he's nothing special in terms of talent.

- Unreliable shooter
- Undersized post defender
- Mediocre rebounder
- Mediocre shot blocker
- Cannot put the ball on the floor to create his own shot

That said,
- He's mobile enough for a big man to switch ball screens on the perimeter.
- He's a very good screener. Was constantly setting up Tatum with his screens. Ranked 13th best in the NBA in screen assists in 2019 (his best season for us) with 4.3 per game.
- He's a decent PnR roller. Was scoring 1.17 PPP in 2019 which was ranking in 66th percentile.

Theis' defense and switchability are vastly overrated by some fans.  It's why, despite decent production in terms of scoring and rebounding, Ime didn't play him a ton.

Overrated or not, it's all about how we were defending the PnR. The way our PnR defense worked, Theis had to meet the opposing ball handler at the level of dribble hand off and deny penetration. Most bigs cannot do what Theis was doing. Feel free to believe his D was overrated, but the fit was undeniable.

If somebody fails at a task repeatedly, do they really fit?

Who says he failed repeatedly? He was terrific under Brad. His advanced stats were great as well. Seems like his lateral quickness isn't what it used to be, hence we punted him. I guess being overpaid didn't work in his favor either.

So, he's gone from the "perfect fit" to an overpaid guy who lacks lateral quickness and didn't get playing time while declining under Ime?

Perhaps he wasn't the perfect fit after all?

Lateral quickness is everything when it comes to perimeter defense. You gotta be able to stay in front of explosive guards, which means you gotta be able to move laterally in order to deny penetration. Most bigs are far more comfortable in a drop scheme. Even elite defenders like Giannis may lack elite lateral movement. Giannis is probably the best help defender in the NBA. He's very fast when moving in a straight line, but he's nothing special when it comes to lateral quicks. This is partly why the Bucks run a drop scheme on D with Giannis as a free safety. They run hedge-and-recover when they use Portis instead of BroLo, but they almost never switch the PnR. Each team has different strengths and weaknesses. The Celtics are built around 2 switchable (s)wings in Tatum and Brown. If we wanna maximize their effectiveness on both sides of the ball, we need as many switchable defenders as possible. Drop bigs like Whiteside would be a terrible fit on the C's. He was a great fit on the Jazz cause they had Gobert who thrives in a drop scheme.

Anyway, feel free to believe Theis didn't fit our scheme. Fwiw, Brad clearly has a different opinion, otherwise he wouldn't have brought him back.

[boscel33]

After 11 pages of posts, not going to look to see if this has been covered, but I found it this morning, I know I read it on Twitter yesterday.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/celtics-dwindling-backup-center-options/ar-AAZgEbq?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=711cb1e7a5bf4aa39e00d6577d9d7e68

For a pure flier, Chinanu Onuaku is the guy there I'd go for, aside from Giles.  Looks like playing in the Israeli top tier, he's figured things out.

"Onuaku washed out of the NBA about four years back. But he’s figured things out playing in Croatia and Israel the last couple of years. He’s an NBA-level talent and could probably handle 10-15 minutes a night as a backup. At 26 years old, Onuaku screams classic “late bloomer”."

We're talking flier, so what the heck!

I hope the C's sign him on the spot!

[td450]

Given the C's got Theis for dumping Schröder, someone who HAD to go, anything he gave was a net positive in a fairly good way. Was Theis perfect? No. But he did bring a bunch of good stuff when called upon as opposed to the "it's about me getting my numbers" play of Schröder.

Sure.  But he was a long way from the “perfect fit” for our defensive scheme that he was described as.

Passing on useful players because they’re not “switch everything” bigs is silly.

No arguments on that from me.

I'll argue that we should pass on useful players because they’re not “switch everything” bigs. I guess I'm silly.

As of now, we have two great shooters who don't fit in Pritchard and Gallo. They are likely the last two in our rotation despite elite shooting. It will be difficult to hide one more.

If you leave a hole in the “switch everything” defense for too long, that defensive form fails. It is the single most important capability this team has. We do not have a top 5 offensive player, and we win nothing without it.

While I understand many here disagree, I feel good about the fact that all evidence suggests that Stevens and Udoka agree with that defensive commitment.

Not silly, but what is your alternative?

Barring a bigger deal, what do we do?
Rob's out a few games, play Al 38 mpg like in the playoffs?
Do you want to play Al 30 mpg in the regular season? Are you happy having Grant play 36 mins as a big during the regular season?

I've posted about this quite a bit, but I'm fine with the compromises you listed for the regular season. I don't think it would be disastrous to play someone like Kornet or Kabengele for a couple of shifts a game for a few weeks during the regular season, if it came to that. Not ideal, but OK.

I agree that we would be important to get one more big who could play a rotation spot at a playoff level. Sooner is better, but only if they are actually worth playing in the playoffs.

I think our best bet is to wait on disruptive major deals like the possible Durant trade, and make a move then. I expect we will get a chance to act as a facilitator and get someone who could actually help when it matters. We might even be able to make a major move. Durant will make teams do whatever it takes to make a deal work, even if it would be otherwise crazy.

We're probably not going to find a lot of common ground. My "compromises" were meant as extremes.
I'm all for better players, but I think for this team the difference between 53 and 57 wins matters.

Do you really think you can take on someone like a Whiteside or a Howard, play a completely different defense with your second rotation the whole regular season, then switch back in the playoffs? You can't. That matters too.

I very much hope we can solve for this before the start of the season. That is more likely than not. But I'd rather go with some no-name PF/C guy who has limited offensive skills but can move his feet than some old dinosaur that requires the whole team to play differently. The defense is the priority, especially for that 3rd big.

The team tried to sign Thomas Bryant.  He's not a switchable big, and yet he was apparently first on our priority list.

For what it’s worth, they tried to sign Bryant while Theis was still on the roster.  It’s unclear how much they pursued him after the trade.

For what its worth, he's 24, he's going to make $2M with the Lakers, he's got a huge wingspan, a good motor and he's a good athlete. He's an inconsistent defender, but he's got the tools to improve. Its just a very, very low risk situation.

If this is what we're arguing about then fine, you win. We could have had him instead of Kornet. He's not filling in for Horford or Robert Williams in the playoffs, right?

[Roy H.]

Given the C's got Theis for dumping Schröder, someone who HAD to go, anything he gave was a net positive in a fairly good way. Was Theis perfect? No. But he did bring a bunch of good stuff when called upon as opposed to the "it's about me getting my numbers" play of Schröder.

Sure.  But he was a long way from the “perfect fit” for our defensive scheme that he was described as.

Passing on useful players because they’re not “switch everything” bigs is silly.

No arguments on that from me.

I'll argue that we should pass on useful players because they’re not “switch everything” bigs. I guess I'm silly.

As of now, we have two great shooters who don't fit in Pritchard and Gallo. They are likely the last two in our rotation despite elite shooting. It will be difficult to hide one more.

If you leave a hole in the “switch everything” defense for too long, that defensive form fails. It is the single most important capability this team has. We do not have a top 5 offensive player, and we win nothing without it.

While I understand many here disagree, I feel good about the fact that all evidence suggests that Stevens and Udoka agree with that defensive commitment.

Not silly, but what is your alternative?

Barring a bigger deal, what do we do?
Rob's out a few games, play Al 38 mpg like in the playoffs?
Do you want to play Al 30 mpg in the regular season? Are you happy having Grant play 36 mins as a big during the regular season?

I've posted about this quite a bit, but I'm fine with the compromises you listed for the regular season. I don't think it would be disastrous to play someone like Kornet or Kabengele for a couple of shifts a game for a few weeks during the regular season, if it came to that. Not ideal, but OK.

I agree that we would be important to get one more big who could play a rotation spot at a playoff level. Sooner is better, but only if they are actually worth playing in the playoffs.

I think our best bet is to wait on disruptive major deals like the possible Durant trade, and make a move then. I expect we will get a chance to act as a facilitator and get someone who could actually help when it matters. We might even be able to make a major move. Durant will make teams do whatever it takes to make a deal work, even if it would be otherwise crazy.

We're probably not going to find a lot of common ground. My "compromises" were meant as extremes.
I'm all for better players, but I think for this team the difference between 53 and 57 wins matters.

Do you really think you can take on someone like a Whiteside or a Howard, play a completely different defense with your second rotation the whole regular season, then switch back in the playoffs? You can't. That matters too.

I very much hope we can solve for this before the start of the season. That is more likely than not. But I'd rather go with some no-name PF/C guy who has limited offensive skills but can move his feet than some old dinosaur that requires the whole team to play differently. The defense is the priority, especially for that 3rd big.

The team tried to sign Thomas Bryant.  He's not a switchable big, and yet he was apparently first on our priority list.

For what it’s worth, they tried to sign Bryant while Theis was still on the roster.  It’s unclear how much they pursued him after the trade.

When was the Brogdon trade announced?  July 1?  Negotiated June 30?  We reportedly had an offer open to Bryant on July 1, as well.

I don’t think there’s any evidence that Brad is focused solely on a switchable big.

[gouki88]

Brad Stevens said they will probably add one more big to the roster.

I wonder if this means a Kabengele or a Boogie type (i.e. veteran)

[DefenseWinsChamps]

What about Mason Plumlee? He's was pretty disappointing for the Hornets. With the loss of Bridges and the additions of Richards, Williams, and Jones in consecutive years, maybe they will go full rebuild.

Plumlee is the ideal veteran role player as a backup. He's unselfish, can protect the rim, and is a pro at running the DHO game. He'd be an ideal backup for Rob Williams that neither wants to take his starting role, but is also not afraid of anyone. He'd give legit backup size against Lopez, Giannis, Embiid, Davis, or Jokic.

On top of that, I seriously doubt he is worth anything more than a future 2nd, like for instance the 2023 Orlando or Portland 2nd.

Maybe we could snag PJ Washington too. Even though we really don't have a role for him, I like him and think he can be in the rotation on a contending team.

Edit: Ooh. Maybe a three team trade that brings Poetl to the Hornets, Plumlee to the Cs, and  the Orlando 2023 2nd, and a future conditional 1st from the Hornets to the Spurs. That makes a ton of sense for all three teams.

[gouki88]

What about Mason Plumlee? He's was pretty disappointing for the Hornets. With the loss of Bridges and the additions of Richards, Williams, and Jones in consecutive years, maybe they will go full rebuild.

Plumlee is the ideal veteran role player as a backup. He's unselfish, can protect the rim, and is a pro at running the DHO game. He'd be an ideal backup for Rob Williams that neither wants to take his starting role, but is also not afraid of anyone. He'd give legit backup size against Lopez, Giannis, Embiid, Davis, or Jokic.

On top of that, I seriously doubt he is worth anything more than a future 2nd, like for instance the 2023 Orlando or Portland 2nd.

Maybe we could snag PJ Washington too. Even though we really don't have a role for him, I like him and think he can be in the rotation on a contending team.

Edit: Ooh. Maybe a three team trade that brings Poetl to the Hornets, Plumlee to the Cs, and  the Orlando 2023 2nd, and a future conditional 1st from the Hornets to the Spurs. That makes a ton of sense for all three teams.

I would be over the moon if we got Plumlee. His playmaking would be perfect for this team

[nickagneta]

I think Plumlee and Poeltl would be good gets. Both might be starters where they are and you hope they would be cool coming off the bench/starting only when Timelord or Al sits(which could be a lot, though let's hope not). Either, IMHO, would make a keen acquisition and probably make substantial contributions to a championship team. But, that's a bunch of money that I don't see ownership being okay with, regardless of what Brad said publicly.