Speculation: Celtics eyeing John Collins

[td450]

Latest rumor has Collins to SAS for Murray. But I don’t love the Trae/Murray fit in ATL, actually think Collins is better there.

So why don’t we get in the middle. Smart to ATL, Collins to SAS, Murray to BOS — and then send out whatever Pritchard/Nesmith/GW combo you need to, plus picks as appropriate, to SAS?

SAS would need a lot more

Would they? SAS signaled they would look for a “Jrue Holiday-type return” for Murray. Holiday went for Bledsoe, George Hill and future picks.

but in this scenario they would be getting Collins so you have top Collins or they should just take him on.

Well, by my count, Murray is the 6th best player in the NBA we could get over the long run.

Antetokounmpo
Dončić
Jokić
Embiid
Morant

You could also argue for Durant and Curry, but they are 33 and 34.

How could we not give them Smart, G Williams and at least 2 1sts? Almost anything but Tatum, Brown or RWilliams would be justified.

[Surferdad]

Rather have Huerter and not disrupt the core. Collins would require a lot going out the door.

Well you get what you pay for.  Huerter is a nice player but doesn't move the needle for me.

[jambr380]

Yes on giving up White, no on giving up Smart. We very much have something ATL wants (a defensive guard to pair with Trae. But If SAS is actually willing to give up Murray for Collins, then we are out. No way we can beat that. I have my doubts about that, though.

[Who]

Murray is one of the most overrated players in the league.

Not sure he is as good as Marcus Smart to be honest. Not sure Murray is a top 15 PG either. He is a stat padder on a bad team. He would be a 14ppg 6apg guy on a contender. He just isn't efficient enough offensively to have the ball in his hands as much as he does and/or to take as many shots as he does. That is why his stats would take such a large drop-off.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Latest rumor has Collins to SAS for Murray. But I don’t love the Trae/Murray fit in ATL, actually think Collins is better there.

So why don’t we get in the middle. Smart to ATL, Collins to SAS, Murray to BOS — and then send out whatever Pritchard/Nesmith/GW combo you need to, plus picks as appropriate, to SAS?

SAS would need a lot more

Would they? SAS signaled they would look for a “Jrue Holiday-type return” for Murray. Holiday went for Bledsoe, George Hill and future picks.

but in this scenario they would be getting Collins so you have top Collins or they should just take him on.

Well, by my count, Murray is the 6th best player in the NBA we could get over the long run.

Antetokounmpo
Dončić
Jokić
Embiid
Morant

You could also argue for Durant and Curry, but they are 33 and 34.

How could we not give them Smart, G Williams and at least 2 1sts? Almost anything but Tatum, Brown or RWilliams would be justified.

You rank Murray significantly higher than I do.

[Who]

I'm not wild about John Collins fit-wise.

(1) He is a score first / non passer type of offensive player which is not a great fit next to Jaylen and Tatum.

(2) Collins is at his most lethal when the paint is open for him to use his quickness & athleticism going to the basket which means he works best next to a stretch five rather than a paint dweller like Rob Williams. I do like Collins fit next to Horford at center. Next to Rob, Collins becomes an overpaid ordinary player who gets unhappy with his lack of offensive involvement just like he has been in Atlanta next to Capela. I would trade Rob Williams for a long term stretch five (say Myles Turner) if we acquire John Collins.

Collins has a basic perimeter game to be functional next to a paint dweller at center. But I do mean basic & I do mean functional. He can exist but he cannot flourish. His 3PT attempts are low. His handles are limited. His passing is limited.

Where Collins flourishes is in PnRs, cuts, offensive rebounds, isos from the midpost and low post post ups. He needs to be in and around the paint to flourish. In other words, he needs to be in and around the paint in order to justify a big payday & to keep him happy otherwise he becomes an unhappy guy in the locker room.

[td450]

Murray is one of the most overrated players in the league.

Not sure he is as good as Marcus Smart to be honest. Not sure Murray is a top 15 PG either. He is a stat padder on a bad team. He would be a 14ppg 6apg guy on a contender. He just isn't efficient enough offensively to have the ball in his hands as much as he does and/or to take as many shots as he does. That is why his stats would take such a large drop-off.

That's an odd take. The second best offensive player on that team is 22 year old Keldon Johnson, and the talent goes down fast from there.  Yet he averages over 9 assists a game. I don't see a stat stuffer at all.

If he replaced Smart, there would be virtually no defensive drop off. Offensively, he's an a completely different level as a passer, he can actually beat people off the dribble, and he's a far better finisher. He's a beast on the boards and he pushes the ball in transition consistently.

There is no comparison between Smart and Murray. There isn't a single GM in the NBA that would choose Smart plus a midlevel 1st instead of Murray. Not one.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Murray is one of the most overrated players in the league.

Not sure he is as good as Marcus Smart to be honest. Not sure Murray is a top 15 PG either. He is a stat padder on a bad team. He would be a 14ppg 6apg guy on a contender. He just isn't efficient enough offensively to have the ball in his hands as much as he does and/or to take as many shots as he does. That is why his stats would take such a large drop-off.

That's an odd take. The second best offensive player on that team is 22 year old Keldon Johnson, and the talent goes down fast from there.  Yet he averages over 9 assists a game. I don't see a stat stuffer at all.

If he replaced Smart, there would be virtually no defensive drop off. Offensively, he's an a completely different level as a passer, he can actually beat people off the dribble, and he's a far better finisher. He's a beast on the boards and he pushes the ball in transition consistently.

There is no comparison between Smart and Murray. There isn't a single GM in the NBA that would choose Smart plus a midlevel 1st instead of Murray. Not one.

I watched him quite a bit last year. He looks like a stat padder to me. He reminded me a lot of a discount Russell Westbrook.

And you are wrong. Many, many GMs would choose the reigning defensive player of the year over Murray, regardless of if a 1st is thrown in.

[nebist]

I'm not wild about John Collins fit-wise.

(1) He is a score first / non passer type of offensive player which is not a great fit next to Jaylen and Tatum.

(2) Collins is at his most lethal when the paint is open for him to use his quickness & athleticism going to the basket which means he works best next to a stretch five rather than a paint dweller like Rob Williams. I do like Collins fit next to Horford at center. Next to Rob, Collins becomes an overpaid ordinary player who gets unhappy with his lack of offensive involvement just like he has been in Atlanta next to Capela. I would trade Rob Williams for a long term stretch five (say Myles Turner) if we acquire John Collins.

Collins has a basic perimeter game to be functional next to a paint dweller at center. But I do mean basic & I do mean functional. He can exist but he cannot flourish. His 3PT attempts are low. His handles are limited. His passing is limited.

Where Collins flourishes is in PnRs, cuts, offensive rebounds, isos from the midpost and low post post ups. He needs to be in and around the paint to flourish. In other words, he needs to be in and around the paint in order to justify a big payday & to keep him happy otherwise he becomes an unhappy guy in the locker room.

Fair points about Collins’ fit. Long-term, we would obviously want him to work alongside Rob. However, for next year, I don’t think it would be a huge issue if he played primarily alongside Al. If the big 4/5 rotation was Rob, Collins, Al, and Grant, you could see Collins at 32 MPG, Rob at 28 MPG (slight reduction from this year to limit wear and tear), Al at 24 MPG (significant reduction in an effort to keep him fresh for playoffs), and Grant at 12 MPG (would end up being quite a bit higher than 12 on average as he might play a bit at the 3 and would also have bigger minute nights whenever Al/Rob/Collins need a night off for whatever reason). Anyways, you could stagger Collins’ minutes in his first year in such a way that he only plays about 10 MPG with Rob even if they start together and spends most of his time paired with Al or Grant on the floor.

[LilRip]

I'm not wild about John Collins fit-wise.

(1) He is a score first / non passer type of offensive player which is not a great fit next to Jaylen and Tatum.

(2) Collins is at his most lethal when the paint is open for him to use his quickness & athleticism going to the basket which means he works best next to a stretch five rather than a paint dweller like Rob Williams. I do like Collins fit next to Horford at center. Next to Rob, Collins becomes an overpaid ordinary player who gets unhappy with his lack of offensive involvement just like he has been in Atlanta next to Capela. I would trade Rob Williams for a long term stretch five (say Myles Turner) if we acquire John Collins.

Collins has a basic perimeter game to be functional next to a paint dweller at center. But I do mean basic & I do mean functional. He can exist but he cannot flourish. His 3PT attempts are low. His handles are limited. His passing is limited.

Where Collins flourishes is in PnRs, cuts, offensive rebounds, isos from the midpost and low post post ups. He needs to be in and around the paint to flourish. In other words, he needs to be in and around the paint in order to justify a big payday & to keep him happy otherwise he becomes an unhappy guy in the locker room.

I’m in this camp too. Unless he becomes a lethal outside shooter and becomes satisfied with being a 3rd option/kickout threat.

[Roy H.]

Murray is the 6th best player in the NBA we could get over the long run.

Antetokounmpo
Dončić
Jokić
Embiid
Morant

What are you basing that assessment on?  You have Murray as MVP-caliber?

To me, he’s a less proven, less versatile Jrue Holiday. 

[BruceBanner18]

I'm not wild about John Collins fit-wise.

(1) He is a score first / non passer type of offensive player which is not a great fit next to Jaylen and Tatum.

(2) Collins is at his most lethal when the paint is open for him to use his quickness & athleticism going to the basket which means he works best next to a stretch five rather than a paint dweller like Rob Williams. I do like Collins fit next to Horford at center. Next to Rob, Collins becomes an overpaid ordinary player who gets unhappy with his lack of offensive involvement just like he has been in Atlanta next to Capela. I would trade Rob Williams for a long term stretch five (say Myles Turner) if we acquire John Collins.

Collins has a basic perimeter game to be functional next to a paint dweller at center. But I do mean basic & I do mean functional. He can exist but he cannot flourish. His 3PT attempts are low. His handles are limited. His passing is limited.

Where Collins flourishes is in PnRs, cuts, offensive rebounds, isos from the midpost and low post post ups. He needs to be in and around the paint to flourish. In other words, he needs to be in and around the paint in order to justify a big payday & to keep him happy otherwise he becomes an unhappy guy in the locker room.

I think a lot of Collins'perceived shortcomings can be attributed to Atlanta's roster and offense. He is super efficient offensively but scores best off other players passing to him on the roll, cuts and as a stationary 3 pt shooter. His complaints, as far as I remember, were wanting more ball and player movement instead of the heliocentric approach around Young. So essentially, he wants to play more like the Celtics because it fit his strengths. I think he flourishes in a better offensive system. It's not surprising he's being linked to the Spurs too. He'd fit just fine.

[td450]

Murray is the 6th best player in the NBA we could get over the long run.

Antetokounmpo
Dončić
Jokić
Embiid
Morant

What are you basing that assessment on?  You have Murray as MVP-caliber?

To me, he’s a less proven, less versatile Jrue Holiday.

I didn't say he was MVP caliber. I said he'd be 6th best player for us. I think Holliday is great too and would probably be a bit better immediately, but Murray is 7 years younger and for a team centered around Tatum and Brown, that is too much to overlook. He is one of only a few point guards in the league that could replace Marcus without compromising our defensive schemes.

He would give us better passing, add a jolt of rebounding, and would push in transition every time. I also like that he's developed under Pop. He's a perfect complementary player to Tatum and Brown.

[gouki88]

Murray is one of the most overrated players in the league.

Not sure he is as good as Marcus Smart to be honest. Not sure Murray is a top 15 PG either. He is a stat padder on a bad team. He would be a 14ppg 6apg guy on a contender. He just isn't efficient enough offensively to have the ball in his hands as much as he does and/or to take as many shots as he does. That is why his stats would take such a large drop-off.

You grossly underestimate his brilliant playmaking and excellent defence. He doesn’t turn it over either.

[BringToughnessBack]

Every year Atlanta tries to get rid of him like the Sixers tried with Noel. Hard pass from me if Smart is involved