2021-22 Celtics Playoffs Discussion

[Vermont Green]

Yeah, this seems like a funny debate.  Jaylen Brown is a star and a great Celtic.  Hard worker, team oriented, everything you could want.  But he does dribble himself into trouble more than he should.  Tatum is even better.

I think the team but these two in particular are really growing through this playoff run.  I saw a different Tatum last night.  He was missing shots, had some ugly air balls, was 1-7 from 3, but he did not let that get to him.  He stayed focused and found other ways to help the team.  He didn't let the shooting affect the rest of his game.  That is a pretty big step for a star player, and a pretty big moment to do it.

Brown I feel, gets tight at times when the moments are big.  Loses his poise a little, rushes things or dribbles into traffic.  These are big moments right now.  I have a feeling that what Tatum did last game, and how he did it, will not be lost on Brown.  Tatum stayed poised, stayed focused.  Didn't get too up when he made big shots, didn't get down when he missed.  Just kept to his game.  I know it is subtle but I think Tatum turned a corner in game 4.

I think Brown has that next level in him also.  He is still figuring it out though.  I think he is almost there.  But that is OK.  I'll take 23 pts/gm in the playoffs on 38% 3p% along with his defense, rebounding and even 3.4 assists, and live with the rest for now.

[Moranis]

I don't really know why Brown gets more of the blame, but I do know even if this set of playoffs, Boston is 8.4 points per 100 possessions better with Jayson Tatum in the game and 11.1 points worse per 100 possessions with Jaylen Brown in the game.  Of the regular rotation only Horford 12.3, Pritchard 11.4, Tatum 8.4, White 5.5, and Rob 1.4 are positive.  Smart -4.1, Grant -4.7, Brown -11.1, and Theis -17.4 are negative.  Obviously there have been several games with massive swings (both ways), which can skew in the numbers in a 15 (or less) game sample size, though it does continue the general multi-year trend where Tatum is just so much more critical to the actual scoreboard than anyone else is (in the regular season Tatum was +13.8, Theis was +11.4, and then there was a grouping between +3.3 and +5.6, Brown was at +5.4). 

Tatum just means so much more to the actual success of the Celtics than anyone else that perhaps he doesn't bear the full weight of the criticism when he plays poorly (because the team often doesn't play poorly when he does).  It also doesn't tend to matter all that much how Tatum actually plays, he just has to play.  Tatum is the engine of the team.  The team goes as he goes and has since he first stepped on the floor as a rookie. 

[nickagneta]

I don't really know why Brown gets more of the blame, but I do know even if this set of playoffs, Boston is 8.4 points per 100 possessions better with Jayson Tatum in the game and 11.1 points worse per 100 possessions with Jaylen Brown in the game.  Of the regular rotation only Horford 12.3, Pritchard 11.4, Tatum 8.4, White 5.5, and Rob 1.4 are positive.  Smart -4.1, Grant -4.7, Brown -11.1, and Theis -17.4 are negative.  Obviously there have been several games with massive swings (both ways), which can skew in the numbers in a 15 (or less) game sample size, though it does continue the general multi-year trend where Tatum is just so much more critical to the actual scoreboard than anyone else is (in the regular season Tatum was +13.8, Theis was +11.4, and then there was a grouping between +3.3 and +5.6, Brown was at +5.4). 

Tatum just means so much more to the actual success of the Celtics than anyone else that perhaps he doesn't bear the full weight of the criticism when he plays poorly (because the team often doesn't play poorly when he does).  It also doesn't tend to matter all that much how Tatum actually plays, he just has to play.  Tatum is the engine of the team.  The team goes as he goes and has since he first stepped on the floor as a rookie.

Tatum gets the early sub out in games/halves and then returns and heads a team of bench players against the opposition's bench. He kills it in these times. And that's a huge reason for his plus minus numbers. It's been that way for years.

Don't get me wrong, Tatum's numbers are great, but the substitution pattern is a major reason for that top of team plus minus.

[Phantom255x]

Still think Jaylen is due for a big game which encompasses an all-around effort. Yes he scored 40 in Game 3 but he also turned the ball over like every other possession and looked awful for some stretches, including on defense.

Struggled last night, but I believe in Jaylen to have a big game tomorrow night in Game 5 

Jaylen gets unfair slights that Jayson doesn't. Everyone is using his turnovers the other night to caveat his 40 points game.

"Oh Jaylen was great....but...."

Jayson has had multiple games this postseason with 20+ and 30+ points with 5, 6 and 7 turnovers and you just don't hear the caveats when dealing with him.

Jayson has a real turnover issue this post season averaging 4.2 turnovers per game with Jaylen having 2.8. But you just don't have people on this site using that caveat to describe Tatum's game. People barely b!tch in the game threads about Tatum's turnovers.

Celtics had 9 turnovers last night. Jayson had 3 of those but no one said boo. Jaylen had 1 last night and people complained about it. Jaylen had 2 turnovers for like five straight games and people were complaining in every one of those games about his turnovers. Tatum 3 TOs.....crickets. I don't get it

Why is Jaylen Brown this team's whipping boy?

I never said Jaylen is the main reason we lost Game 3. Game 3 was an atrocious effort by almost everyone. But Jaylen did contribute to it as well. So did Tatum.

Maybe you're right, if they won Game 3 then Jaylen would have been the star and no one would talk that much about his turnovers and sloppy play. I'm more so saying that I feel in Game 5, we'll see a better all-rounded performance from Jaylen on efficient shooting, hopefully in a winning effort.

[nickagneta]

Still think Jaylen is due for a big game which encompasses an all-around effort. Yes he scored 40 in Game 3 but he also turned the ball over like every other possession and looked awful for some stretches, including on defense.

Struggled last night, but I believe in Jaylen to have a big game tomorrow night in Game 5 

Jaylen gets unfair slights that Jayson doesn't. Everyone is using his turnovers the other night to caveat his 40 points game.

"Oh Jaylen was great....but...."

Jayson has had multiple games this postseason with 20+ and 30+ points with 5, 6 and 7 turnovers and you just don't hear the caveats when dealing with him.

Jayson has a real turnover issue this post season averaging 4.2 turnovers per game with Jaylen having 2.8. But you just don't have people on this site using that caveat to describe Tatum's game. People barely b!tch in the game threads about Tatum's turnovers.

Celtics had 9 turnovers last night. Jayson had 3 of those but no one said boo. Jaylen had 1 last night and people complained about it. Jaylen had 2 turnovers for like five straight games and people were complaining in every one of those games about his turnovers. Tatum 3 TOs.....crickets. I don't get it

Why is Jaylen Brown this team's whipping boy?

I never said Jaylen is the main reason we lost Game 3. Game 3 was an atrocious effort by almost everyone. But Jaylen did contribute to it as well. So did Tatum.

Maybe you're right, if they won Game 3 then Jaylen would have been the star and no one would talk that much about his turnovers and sloppy play. I'm more so saying that I feel in Game 5, we'll see a better all-rounded performance from Jaylen on efficient shooting, hopefully in a winning effort.

Who did? I didn't. Also, I don't view Brown's, Horford's or Smart's contributions in that game as atrocious. Not even close.

[Ed Monix]

Playoff wins over the last 15 years
 
Philadelphia 76ers: 37

Jayson Tatum: 37

#TrustTheProcess

[Phantom255x]

Still think Jaylen is due for a big game which encompasses an all-around effort. Yes he scored 40 in Game 3 but he also turned the ball over like every other possession and looked awful for some stretches, including on defense.

Struggled last night, but I believe in Jaylen to have a big game tomorrow night in Game 5 

Jaylen gets unfair slights that Jayson doesn't. Everyone is using his turnovers the other night to caveat his 40 points game.

"Oh Jaylen was great....but...."

Jayson has had multiple games this postseason with 20+ and 30+ points with 5, 6 and 7 turnovers and you just don't hear the caveats when dealing with him.

Jayson has a real turnover issue this post season averaging 4.2 turnovers per game with Jaylen having 2.8. But you just don't have people on this site using that caveat to describe Tatum's game. People barely b!tch in the game threads about Tatum's turnovers.

Celtics had 9 turnovers last night. Jayson had 3 of those but no one said boo. Jaylen had 1 last night and people complained about it. Jaylen had 2 turnovers for like five straight games and people were complaining in every one of those games about his turnovers. Tatum 3 TOs.....crickets. I don't get it

Why is Jaylen Brown this team's whipping boy?

I never said Jaylen is the main reason we lost Game 3. Game 3 was an atrocious effort by almost everyone. But Jaylen did contribute to it as well. So did Tatum.

Maybe you're right, if they won Game 3 then Jaylen would have been the star and no one would talk that much about his turnovers and sloppy play. I'm more so saying that I feel in Game 5, we'll see a better all-rounded performance from Jaylen on efficient shooting, hopefully in a winning effort.

Who did? I didn't. Also, I don't view Brown's, Horford's or Smart's contributions in that game as atrocious. Not even close.

Oh I thought you said I was saying Jaylen cost us Game 3 lol.

Okay "atrocious" I'll admit was strong to say, but tbh the whole team wasn't great in Game 3. Horford was probably our best guy but even he was getting killed by Bam early on and that was a reason Miami ballooned their lead.

[Big333223]

Sometimes I worry about my green goggles coloring my judgement but I just listened to the Lowe Post and Tim Bontemps said two things I've been harping on verbatim:

1. When Lowe said this series was weird, Bontemps said, No it's not. It's very simple. If the Celtics are sloppy and turn it over, they lose and if they focus and take care of the ball they're obviously better and will win.

2. Lowe brought up the FT disparity last night and mentioned that the Heat foul always foul a lot (they were 27th in the league at committing fouls) and Bontemps added that they're essentially fouling on every play, strategizing that the refs can't call them all.

So that felt validating to hear someone else say it.

[Celtics2021]

Sometimes I worry about my green goggles coloring my judgement but I just listened to the Lowe Post and Tim Bontemps said two things I've been harping on verbatim:

1. When Lowe said this series was weird, Bontemps said, No it's not. It's very simple. If the Celtics are sloppy and turn it over, they lose and if they focus and take care of the ball they're obviously better and will win.

2. Lowe brought up the FT disparity last night and mentioned that the Heat foul always foul a lot (they were 27th in the league at committing fouls) and Bontemps added that they're essentially fouling on every play, strategizing that the refs can't call them all.

So that felt validating to hear someone else say it.

Tim Bontemps is my new favorite national analyst!

[Roy H.]

Tyler Herro is questionable for Game 5, but in general he has a "two week" injury. 

[libermaniac]

Tyler Herro is questionable for Game 5, but in general he has a "two week" injury.

I’m not sure if Herro playing would cut into Oladipo’s time but if so I’d prefer Herro to be back.

[86MaxwellSmart]

Sometimes I worry about my green goggles coloring my judgement but I just listened to the Lowe Post and Tim Bontemps said two things I've been harping on verbatim:

1. When Lowe said this series was weird, Bontemps said, No it's not. It's very simple. If the Celtics are sloppy and turn it over, they lose and if they focus and take care of the ball they're obviously better and will win.

2. Lowe brought up the FT disparity last night and mentioned that the Heat foul always foul a lot (they were 27th in the league at committing fouls) and Bontemps added that they're essentially fouling on every play, strategizing that the refs can't call them all.

So that felt validating to hear someone else say it.

Tim Bontemps is my new favorite national analyst!

TRUTH--The Heat could have been called for 20 more fouls last night--they're always grabbing and holding...Fat man always hacking our big men under the basket too.

[Moranis]

I don't really know why Brown gets more of the blame, but I do know even if this set of playoffs, Boston is 8.4 points per 100 possessions better with Jayson Tatum in the game and 11.1 points worse per 100 possessions with Jaylen Brown in the game.  Of the regular rotation only Horford 12.3, Pritchard 11.4, Tatum 8.4, White 5.5, and Rob 1.4 are positive.  Smart -4.1, Grant -4.7, Brown -11.1, and Theis -17.4 are negative.  Obviously there have been several games with massive swings (both ways), which can skew in the numbers in a 15 (or less) game sample size, though it does continue the general multi-year trend where Tatum is just so much more critical to the actual scoreboard than anyone else is (in the regular season Tatum was +13.8, Theis was +11.4, and then there was a grouping between +3.3 and +5.6, Brown was at +5.4). 

Tatum just means so much more to the actual success of the Celtics than anyone else that perhaps he doesn't bear the full weight of the criticism when he plays poorly (because the team often doesn't play poorly when he does).  It also doesn't tend to matter all that much how Tatum actually plays, he just has to play.  Tatum is the engine of the team.  The team goes as he goes and has since he first stepped on the floor as a rookie.

Tatum gets the early sub out in games/halves and then returns and heads a team of bench players against the opposition's bench. He kills it in these times. And that's a huge reason for his plus minus numbers. It's been that way for years.

Don't get me wrong, Tatum's numbers are great, but the substitution pattern is a major reason for that top of team plus minus.

Then how do you explain that in the games Tatum plays and Brown doesn't, Boston is well above .500, but in the games Brown plays and Tatum does not, Boston is well below .500. 

The team just functions better when Tatum is in the game and it always has.  It does not play all that well when Brown is the lead guy.  Heck even this year in the regular season and post season, Boston is 1-2 when Brown scores at least 40.  When Tatum scores at least 40, Boston is 6-0.  If you go to at least 38 points that adds 3 more wins and no losses for Tatum (so 9-0 when Tatum scores at least 38).  And it was fairly similar last year and the year before as well. 

Brown is an excellent player, but the team goes as Tatum goes and in many respects Tatum simply plays better without Brown next to him as they occupy much of the same space on the floor offensively.  That is why I've been an advocate for trading Brown.  It isn't because I don't like him (you won't find me on here criticizing him in these or any playoffs), it is because I can see that he isn't a great compliment to Tatum and I recognize that Tatum is the guy that needs to be complimented.  That was really the only critique I had of Ainge i.e. he just didn't make the moves to maximize Tatum.  Ainge's moves weren't bad in a vacuum, but they didn't match with what I felt should be happening.  Stevens came in and basically every move he made was made with the intent of maximizing Tatum.  He brought Horford back so Tatum could play SF.  He got rid of a shoot first PG and went with Smart who is more of a playmaker.  He added shooters at all positions (aside from Rob) to keep the spacing available for Tatum.  Not every move Stevens made was the best one or worked out 100% as well as it could have, but every move he made was with the intention of maximizing Tatum's skill set.  He went all in around Tatum.  He picked a direction and everything he did was geared towards that direction.  That is what I wanted Ainge to do since basically the day he drafted Tatum, but that isn't what Ainge did.  He kept trying to make win now moves, while not fully committing to win now.  That was Ainge's real failure as a gm the last 5 years or so.  He just wanted to save and eat his cake, and by doing that he harmed both paths. 

[nickagneta]

I don't really know why Brown gets more of the blame, but I do know even if this set of playoffs, Boston is 8.4 points per 100 possessions better with Jayson Tatum in the game and 11.1 points worse per 100 possessions with Jaylen Brown in the game.  Of the regular rotation only Horford 12.3, Pritchard 11.4, Tatum 8.4, White 5.5, and Rob 1.4 are positive.  Smart -4.1, Grant -4.7, Brown -11.1, and Theis -17.4 are negative.  Obviously there have been several games with massive swings (both ways), which can skew in the numbers in a 15 (or less) game sample size, though it does continue the general multi-year trend where Tatum is just so much more critical to the actual scoreboard than anyone else is (in the regular season Tatum was +13.8, Theis was +11.4, and then there was a grouping between +3.3 and +5.6, Brown was at +5.4). 

Tatum just means so much more to the actual success of the Celtics than anyone else that perhaps he doesn't bear the full weight of the criticism when he plays poorly (because the team often doesn't play poorly when he does).  It also doesn't tend to matter all that much how Tatum actually plays, he just has to play.  Tatum is the engine of the team.  The team goes as he goes and has since he first stepped on the floor as a rookie.

Tatum gets the early sub out in games/halves and then returns and heads a team of bench players against the opposition's bench. He kills it in these times. And that's a huge reason for his plus minus numbers. It's been that way for years.

Don't get me wrong, Tatum's numbers are great, but the substitution pattern is a major reason for that top of team plus minus.

Then how do you explain that in the games Tatum plays and Brown doesn't, Boston is well above .500, but in the games Brown plays and Tatum does not, Boston is well below .500. 

The team just functions better when Tatum is in the game and it always has.  It does not play all that well when Brown is the lead guy.  Heck even this year in the regular season and post season, Boston is 1-2 when Brown scores at least 40.  When Tatum scores at least 40, Boston is 6-0.  If you go to at least 38 points that adds 3 more wins and no losses for Tatum (so 9-0 when Tatum scores at least 38).  And it was fairly similar last year and the year before as well. 

Brown is an excellent player, but the team goes as Tatum goes and in many respects Tatum simply plays better without Brown next to him as they occupy much of the same space on the floor offensively.  That is why I've been an advocate for trading Brown.  It isn't because I don't like him (you won't find me on here criticizing him in these or any playoffs), it is because I can see that he isn't a great compliment to Tatum and I recognize that Tatum is the guy that needs to be complimented.  That was really the only critique I had of Ainge i.e. he just didn't make the moves to maximize Tatum.  Ainge's moves weren't bad in a vacuum, but they didn't match with what I felt should be happening.  Stevens came in and basically every move he made was made with the intent of maximizing Tatum.  He brought Horford back so Tatum could play SF.  He got rid of a shoot first PG and went with Smart who is more of a playmaker.  He added shooters at all positions (aside from Rob) to keep the spacing available for Tatum.  Not every move Stevens made was the best one or worked out 100% as well as it could have, but every move he made was with the intention of maximizing Tatum's skill set.  He went all in around Tatum.  He picked a direction and everything he did was geared towards that direction.  That is what I wanted Ainge to do since basically the day he drafted Tatum, but that isn't what Ainge did.  He kept trying to make win now moves, while not fully committing to win now.  That was Ainge's real failure as a gm the last 5 years or so.  He just wanted to save and eat his cake, and by doing that he harmed both paths.

I will respond only this once because I swore to myself I would never discuss this stupidity with you ever again, but an example happened that proves your point ridiculous.

Is Memphis better without Ja Morant? His record playing vs not playing kinda shows that. Point is the playing/not playing stats are meaningless without a whole bunch of context which you have refused to address so many times in the past.

Also, Stevens has discussed multiple times of needing to add pieces to compliment BOTH JAYSON AND JAYLEN. Not just Tatum, both guys. He has repeatedly said The Jays are not the issue and can play great together. But apparently you missed the last 5 months that prove he is right about that.

Sure glad Stevens is the GM and not you.

[Moranis]

I don't really know why Brown gets more of the blame, but I do know even if this set of playoffs, Boston is 8.4 points per 100 possessions better with Jayson Tatum in the game and 11.1 points worse per 100 possessions with Jaylen Brown in the game.  Of the regular rotation only Horford 12.3, Pritchard 11.4, Tatum 8.4, White 5.5, and Rob 1.4 are positive.  Smart -4.1, Grant -4.7, Brown -11.1, and Theis -17.4 are negative.  Obviously there have been several games with massive swings (both ways), which can skew in the numbers in a 15 (or less) game sample size, though it does continue the general multi-year trend where Tatum is just so much more critical to the actual scoreboard than anyone else is (in the regular season Tatum was +13.8, Theis was +11.4, and then there was a grouping between +3.3 and +5.6, Brown was at +5.4). 

Tatum just means so much more to the actual success of the Celtics than anyone else that perhaps he doesn't bear the full weight of the criticism when he plays poorly (because the team often doesn't play poorly when he does).  It also doesn't tend to matter all that much how Tatum actually plays, he just has to play.  Tatum is the engine of the team.  The team goes as he goes and has since he first stepped on the floor as a rookie.

Tatum gets the early sub out in games/halves and then returns and heads a team of bench players against the opposition's bench. He kills it in these times. And that's a huge reason for his plus minus numbers. It's been that way for years.

Don't get me wrong, Tatum's numbers are great, but the substitution pattern is a major reason for that top of team plus minus.

Then how do you explain that in the games Tatum plays and Brown doesn't, Boston is well above .500, but in the games Brown plays and Tatum does not, Boston is well below .500. 

The team just functions better when Tatum is in the game and it always has.  It does not play all that well when Brown is the lead guy.  Heck even this year in the regular season and post season, Boston is 1-2 when Brown scores at least 40.  When Tatum scores at least 40, Boston is 6-0.  If you go to at least 38 points that adds 3 more wins and no losses for Tatum (so 9-0 when Tatum scores at least 38).  And it was fairly similar last year and the year before as well. 

Brown is an excellent player, but the team goes as Tatum goes and in many respects Tatum simply plays better without Brown next to him as they occupy much of the same space on the floor offensively.  That is why I've been an advocate for trading Brown.  It isn't because I don't like him (you won't find me on here criticizing him in these or any playoffs), it is because I can see that he isn't a great compliment to Tatum and I recognize that Tatum is the guy that needs to be complimented.  That was really the only critique I had of Ainge i.e. he just didn't make the moves to maximize Tatum.  Ainge's moves weren't bad in a vacuum, but they didn't match with what I felt should be happening.  Stevens came in and basically every move he made was made with the intent of maximizing Tatum.  He brought Horford back so Tatum could play SF.  He got rid of a shoot first PG and went with Smart who is more of a playmaker.  He added shooters at all positions (aside from Rob) to keep the spacing available for Tatum.  Not every move Stevens made was the best one or worked out 100% as well as it could have, but every move he made was with the intention of maximizing Tatum's skill set.  He went all in around Tatum.  He picked a direction and everything he did was geared towards that direction.  That is what I wanted Ainge to do since basically the day he drafted Tatum, but that isn't what Ainge did.  He kept trying to make win now moves, while not fully committing to win now.  That was Ainge's real failure as a gm the last 5 years or so.  He just wanted to save and eat his cake, and by doing that he harmed both paths.

I will respond only this once because I swore to myself I would never discuss this stupidity with you ever again, but an example happened that proves your point ridiculous.

Is Memphis better without Ja Morant? His record playing vs not playing kinda shows that. Point is the playing/not playing stats are meaningless without a whole bunch of context which you have refused to address so many times in the past.

Also, Stevens has discussed multiple times of needing to add pieces to compliment BOTH JAYSON AND JAYLEN. Not just Tatum, both guys. He has repeatedly said The Jays are not the issue and can play great together. But apparently you missed the last 5 months that prove he is right about that.

Sure glad Stevens is the GM and not you.

There is absolutely an argument that Memphis is better without Morant.  His defense is terrible, he is a relatively small guard, and he is incredibly ball dominant that it is hard for others to find their own groove with him on the floor.  That is a critique that works with Luka, but Luka is just flat out better than Morant (he is also a lot bigger).  It is harder to hide a small terrible defender (we all remember IT4). 

Speaking of IT4, that isn't the only time we've seen that phenomenon with the C's recently.  Whether it was with Thomas or Irving leading the way Boston wasn't all that much worse without them on the floor because they were ball dominant, small guards, that were terribly defensively.  They weren't play makers, they didn't get others involved, and they didn't have the true top end talent where you can overcome that sort of play (Westbrook is another player in that ilk, but at least he created offense for others and rebounded the ball).   

Year after year for the same thing to keep happening isn't a coincidence, it isn't just context unless the context is, the team doesn't need Brown to be successful.   

Boston should win the title this year and when that happens obviously no major moves are going to be made, but that doesn't mean there aren't better long term fits next to Tatum than Brown, and Tatum is absolutely the guy to build around.