Credit to Ainge?

[jambr380]

I am seriously in disbelief of the people who don't think Ainge deserves any credit for Horford or Theis (obviously he deserves credit for Tatum, Brown, Smart, TL, Grant, and PP). Gift did a nice job explaining why Horford wouldn't now be on this team if he didn't originally sign with us in 2016. And Ainge is the one who literally brought undrafted 27 year old Theis to the NBA. The only reason we traded him was to duck the salary cap - I don't think anybody in the world - especially Ainge - ever thought Luke Kornet was a better player than Theis.

Stevens literally just went out and re-acquired guys that Danny already brought in for him. And in the case of Horford, it's quite likely that Ainge at least had conversations with OKC beforehand since the deal was done so quickly.

Stevens may develop into a very good GM, but Ainge was probably the best of his era.

[aefgogreen]

I think the biggest change for this team has been the hiring of Ime.  It was rough early, but he clearly seems to have taken them to another level that Brad couldn't.  Not that Brad isn't a brilliant coach, just something didn't seem to click with the players and him.

In regards to the makeup of the team, it's probably 90% Ainge.  The players that are here are almost entirely his work.  Brad has made some nice adjustments that have panned out very well and helped round out the roster, but the meat and potatoes of it was Ainge (Tatum, Brown, Marcus, and Rob)

I honestly feel like if the Celtics win the Championship this season, then Ainge deserves to get a ring for it, even if he's not with the organization currently.  This is the team he built for sure.

This is huge.  Ainge is reluctant to trade away his guys unless he's sure and it paid off...Sometimes the best deals are the ones you don't make.

[Hoopvortex]

Stevens undid Ainge's mistakes in Walker (and Fournier). 

I can't view Walker as a mistake, unless his chronic knee problem was foreseeable; of course it wasn't. He became a part-time player with mobility issues.

Brad the coach didn't get proper credit for completely re-vamping the Celtics offense around Kemba's p&r genius; hell, even Tatum got more p&r ballhandler reps. Maybe if Kemba had not been a shell of his former self in the Bubble playoffs they could have beaten Miami.

I would certainly agree that the deal to dump Kemba's contract and future medical history was a big success for Brad the executive.

Stevens added size.

Good point. As much as anything, they moved on from smaller players. Certainly Udoka has embraced larger lineups, with two bigs and typically size advantages at the 1-2-3.

Stevens had a great summer and an even better trade deadline. 

Have to agree, and I'd even say 'brilliant'.

Stevens created the framework and flexibility to acquire White.  And Stevens hired Idoka.  Saying that all Stevens did was put the icing on top of Ainge's cake just isn't accurate and takes basically all of the credit away from Stevens that he deserves.

I agree.

I think we mostly make a mistake in comparing Stevens with Ainge; Stevens is taking the next step, consolidating and streamlining. Ainge made a priority of accumulating draft assets - a 'process' if you like, Celtics-style; this is inevitably messy, with a lot of unpredictability, dead ends, and good choices that still don't pan out.

The old NBA cliché is, you can't know what's in a player's heart; nor can you know if a player can acquire the skills you think he needs to play on a contender; nor can you predict how his body will deal with the load; nor how well he'll fit with his teammates. Best guesses and a big dollop of good fortune are a big part of the equation.

But you can load the equation up in your favor by giving yourself more chances, and that's what Danny did, leading to extended comparisons, for example, between Edwards and Pritchard, Ojeleye and Grant, Romeo and Nesmith.

[I was shocked at one point this season to discover how many posters on this site weren't following the rest of the league. Well, that's their business, of course, but I'm betting that a lot of Celtics fans don't know and will be surprised to learn that Carsen lit it up in the G-League, and Semi is getting more paint touches than 3-pt attempts in LA.]

Brad Stevens, taking the roster into the next phase, has moved decisively to consolidating and streamlining, resolving the internal competitions, and putting an end to the steady flow of prospects.

[RPGenerate]

I never like arguing about things like "who actually gets the most credit???", because it just feels like meaningless semantics and a waste of time. Ainge drafted our core, Brad put us on the next level with his shrewd moves, Ime has got the team running like a well oiled machine, and the players are executing at a near flawless level. Anything past that doesn't really matter to me, as everyone deserves credit for the turnaround.

[aefgogreen]

Ainge gets full credit for the Jays.

Do we really think our head coach had no say in the matter? I’d love folks to name some comparable draft selections by Danny (even someone comparable to Timelord) when Doc was coach…

Here’s a thought: Perhaps the reason why ownership was so confident having Brad as GM is because Wyc knows who really nailed it with the draft selections behind the scenes? And knows who was right about it being a mistake to not keep Horford and Theis?

Ainge (alongside the boneheads in Brooklyn) gets full credit for fleecing the Nets, which brought us the Jays. He also gets full credit for getting extremely lucky in acquiring KG (no fleecing of the Nets without KG), which was the most consequential thing to happen to the franchise in the past 35 years (otherwise, Danny would have been out of a job by the late 2000s…). Finally, he gets credit for bringing Brad here, although if it wasn’t Danny bringing him into the NBA, it would have been the GM of the Pacers sooner or later, at the very least.

We are extremely fortunate to have Brad Stevens leading this organization. It’s ultimately why we are feeling invincible and on top for the first time since 2008.

It's my understanding that coaches don't have much time to evaluate potential draftees.  Unless I hear otherwise, I'm going to assume that Brad had little influence on who Ainge drafted.

[Hoopvortex]

Ainge gets full credit for the Jays.

Do we really think our head coach had no say in the matter? I’d love folks to name some comparable draft selections by Danny (even someone comparable to Timelord) when Doc was coach…

Here’s a thought: Perhaps the reason why ownership was so confident having Brad as GM is because Wyc knows who really nailed it with the draft selections behind the scenes? And knows who was right about it being a mistake to not keep Horford and Theis?

Ainge (alongside the boneheads in Brooklyn) gets full credit for fleecing the Nets, which brought us the Jays. He also gets full credit for getting extremely lucky in acquiring KG (no fleecing of the Nets without KG), which was the most consequential thing to happen to the franchise in the past 35 years (otherwise, Danny would have been out of a job by the late 2000s…). Finally, he gets credit for bringing Brad here, although if it wasn’t Danny bringing him into the NBA, it would have been the GM of the Pacers sooner or later, at the very least.

We are extremely fortunate to have Brad Stevens leading this organization. It’s ultimately why we are feeling invincible and on top for the first time since 2008.

It's my understanding that coaches don't have much time to evaluate potential draftees.  Unless I hear otherwise, I'm going to assume that Brad had little influence on who Ainge drafted.

Or even traded away; looks like, reading between the lines, Brad may have preferred to keep Al and Daniel the first time around. Those were money moves as much as anything else, which is something coaches are unlikely to spend much time thinking about.

[RJ87]

Of course Danny deserves credit. That should be a no brainer. Honestly, just picture where this team would be if Ainge had listened to the outside noise, kept the #1 pick, and drafted Fultz. Or if he took Kris Dunn or Dragan Bender like so many wanted instead of Jaylen at #3. His prints are all over this team whether people like it or not.

A lot of people have recency bias when it comes to Ainge. But I have no doubt in my mind that the 2017/18 team he put together was capable of winning a championship. A freak injury changed that completely.

[wdleehi]

Yes Ainge gets credit for the base of the team he left.



Just like Stevens should get the base of the player development he left for Ime.   



In both cases, what had been put in place wasn't just thrown out and it was started new.   It was new eyes and new approaches to adjust on what was already done. 

[Vermont Green]

People mostly rag on Ainge for all the potential draft picks he passed on but in reality, this team is made up of largely Ainge draft picks, in many cases, draft picks obtained in savvy trades.  No question that Ainge deserves credit for all of that.

I don't think you can give Ainge credit for the Horford trade or the Theis trade though.  It may be possible that Ainge had laid groundwork for the Horford trade but these were Stevens trades.  Whether Ainge had signed Horford or Theis in the past has nothing to do with these recent transactions.  For example, if Horford had bombed out and played terrible, would you say it is Ainge's fault because he signed Horford in the past?  No, of course not, you would blame Stevens for making the trade and by the same reasoning, Stevens gets the credit, not Ainge.

This is still mostly the team that Ainge built, now with a few Stevens additions/changes.  This is not a difficult thing to determine.

[spikelovetheCelts]

Danny  Hired Brad Brad hired Ime. Danny is part of these Celtics but the vibe now he has nothing to do with that Started with Ime's approach and calmness. Danny is a top 5 drafter but he had some wiffs but not like Philly or New York. He also did not trade for AD and I was one who said no to that. Our future is bright. Nesmith will be a good player. Romeo is IL is all. He has talent. Semi and Nader are still in this League. Rozier is a borderline All Stare. Man I thankful for my league Pass. This is some great stuff here. Danny has not had a total wiff.

[Roy H.]

Danny  Hired Brad Brad hired Ime. Danny is part of these Celtics but the vibe now he has nothing to do with that Started with Ime's approach and calmness. Danny is a top 5 drafter but he had some wiffs but not like Philly or New York. He also did not trade for AD and I was one who said no to that. Our future is bright. Nesmith will be a good player. Romeo is IL is all. He has talent. Semi and Nader are still in this League. Rozier is a borderline All Stare. Man I thankful for my league Pass. This is some great stuff here. Danny has not had a total wiff.

Fab Melo.  JR Giddens.  If you want to talk early second rounders, Gabe Pruitt and Jordan Mickey.

So, he's had a handful of strikeouts.  Also some HRs and a lot of solid doubles.

[slamtheking]

Danny  Hired Brad Brad hired Ime. Danny is part of these Celtics but the vibe now he has nothing to do with that Started with Ime's approach and calmness. Danny is a top 5 drafter but he had some wiffs but not like Philly or New York. He also did not trade for AD and I was one who said no to that. Our future is bright. Nesmith will be a good player. Romeo is IL is all. He has talent. Semi and Nader are still in this League. Rozier is a borderline All Stare. Man I thankful for my league Pass. This is some great stuff here. Danny has not had a total wiff.

Fab Melo.  JR Giddens.  If you want to talk early second rounders, Gabe Pruitt and Jordan Mickey.

So, he's had a handful of singles.  Also some HRs and a lot of solid doubles.

those are whiffs for sure but really going deep into the late first to find those, never mind the second rounders.  I'd say James Young was his biggest whiff.  JJJ would make that list too.  Overall, Danny's track record in the draft is more than solid. 

I wouldn't lump Yabu or Zizic in with the whiffs.  Not because they were bad picks, they were, but because their selection wasn't based on talent evaluation but due to Danny's horrid asset management in that draft where he had so many picks that he couldn't add to the roster such that he painted himself into a corner to have take draft-and-stash players.  if he managed the draft assets better, he'd have either packaged them for a decent, established player OR a higher draft pick that would have been chosen based on talent evaluation OR for future draft assets. 

[dannyboy35]

I think the biggest change for this team has been the hiring of Ime.  It was rough early, but he clearly seems to have taken them to another level that Brad couldn't.  Not that Brad isn't a brilliant coach, just something didn't seem to click with the players and him.

In regards to the makeup of the team, it's probably 90% Ainge.  The players that are here are almost entirely his work.  Brad has made some nice adjustments that have panned out very well and helped round out the roster, but the meat and potatoes of it was Ainge (Tatum, Brown, Marcus, and Rob)

I honestly feel like if the Celtics win the Championship this season, then Ainge deserves to get a ring for it, even if he's not with the organization currently.  This is the team he built for sure.

   
   Absolutely. Brad is a great defensive coach but his offense is awful. He couldn’t adjust on the fly. I have way more faith in Ime. He brings 2 bigs to the foul line instead of nobody on a 2-1-2 zone. We’ll crush zones. Ime is waaay better. Ainge deserves a ton of credit for this though. I wish we had Ime a bit earlier. I DO believe Horford was a Danny move snd I DON’T believe Brad is the main decision maker. He’ll fulfill his years and coach somewhere else for sure.

[gift]

Yes Ainge gets credit for the base of the team he left.



Just like Stevens should get the base of the player development he left for Ime.   



In both cases, what had been put in place wasn't just thrown out and it was started new.   It was new eyes and new approaches to adjust on what was already done.

I started the topic just as a way to recognize the Ainge dna in this team that we are enjoying so much. I think it's due. However, the more I think about it, the more I think ownership deserves a ton of credit. They went the continuity route like you said and put some new eyes in new places and were steadfast enough to keep what Ainge put together.

[GreenlyGreeny]

I think we need to give credit to Red Auerbach because if he had never brought in Danny as a player he never would have later given his endorsement of Danny for GM, which led to Danny being hired as GM, so we never would have got to this point without Red. Therefore it’s still Red’s team and Red gets the credit…even though Red’s been dead for 15 years 🙄

Obviously the owners picked Brad, not Danny, for 2021-2022. Obviously the head coach was hired by Brad, and Ime added coaches to the guys Stevens hired before. The coaching credit all goes to Ime and Brad. Danny gets some credit for hiring Brad, but Brad made the decision to leave Butler because of Celtic Pride, not Danny, and Brad hired Ime…

In terms of players, the Horford trade happened under Stevens and probably happened right away because Brad, Jayson, Jaylen and Marcus all told ownership that the team has never been the same since Al left, and we need Al back, so that’s exactly what happened ASAP under Brad. In contrast to the fact that trade was executed by Stevens, there’s zero evidence Danny would have done it, or had anything to do with it before leaving. That’s just revisionist history by the Danny Worshippers who won’t give it up even though Danny is now a Utah Jazz exec…

In terms of White, that’s clearly all Brad and Ime.

With regards to Theis, again, all Brad finding a way to bring him home.

Danny made a couple big mistakes at the end because he never did quite understand the importance of chemistry and legacy (he’s the dude who suggested trading Larry Legend, which led to Danny being traded instead and rightfully so): He let two of the most popular locker room guys in Al and Daniel go because of money. Because of money. And don’t forget what Danny did to IT and how that led to Kryme.  Even if IT had been toast in 2017-2018, if we had stayed loyal to him we still would have been just as good in 2017-2019 without Kyrie considering Kyrie was injured most of that first year and was a cancer the second year. And we likely would have had the 8th pick in the 2018 draft had we not done the Kyrie move, so we could have added cost-controlled SGA or Mikal Bridges. Heck, we possibly had the ammo to move up to 3 to add Doncic. Can you imagine how amazing we would be now?

Danny no longer has the job because he failed to win a title in over a dozen years and even failed to make an appearance in the Finals for 11 straight years. What did him in was probably letting Al walk, which led to a terrible two years despite a decent trip in the Bubble. It’s not a coincidence that Timelord and Grant are having their best seasons ever under Al’s wing. Kyrie did not help matters at all for Danny.

As soon as Hayward’s contract is up, we’ll probably be bringing him back, too, to fix another one of Danny’s final flawed decisions.

Chemistry matters. Celtic Pride matters.