Celtics trade grades?

[todd_days_41]

If you could only have three of the following players, who would you take? Meaning, which one would you drop?

Robert Williams
Grant Williams
Payton Pritchard
Derrick White

Depends on what I'm getting back in return.

Maybe to answer the question that I think you're actually asking: each of those players provides things that the team needs; so if I'm losing/trading one of them I need to somehow replace those things.

Nothing in return -- you just have to cut one.

You'd still have to add a rotation-quality player to replace what you're losing. That's why I said that. Each of those players adds different things. Incidentally Daniel Theis might have been a better one on this list than Robert Williams, since he's a starter.

I suppose I should admire your persistence in your anti-Derrick White campaign; and I must say I'm not bothered by it. It's one of those discussions that makes you take a closer look at what you actually know vs. your impressions and assumptions.

All 4 are rotation players, so of course you need to factor replacement. But first and foremost, which player do you value least going forward?

I think both the Williams' are staying in anyone's book. You're not losing one of them for either Pritchard or White.

I'm a little surprised to see a group of people say Pritchard so quickly. I think it's a pretty close call between him and White. I do think Pritchard's stubbornness as a scorer is important. The guy wants to hoist it at all times, and believes its going in.... need a guy like that on your bench.

[todd_days_41]

If you could only have three of the following players, who would you take? Meaning, which one would you drop?

Robert Williams
Grant Williams
Payton Pritchard
Derrick White

Got a better one:
If you could only have three of the following players, who would you take? Meaning, which one would you drop?

Jayson Tatum
Jaylen Brown
Marcus Smart
Al Horford

Obviously you'd drop Horford. What's your answer the original question? Wait, I thought you weren't responding to this thread anymore?

Pritchard. I responded because this isn't really a trade question.

It's certainly a trade question.

[Hoopvortex]

If you could only have three of the following players, who would you take? Meaning, which one would you drop?

Robert Williams
Grant Williams
Payton Pritchard
Derrick White

Depends on what I'm getting back in return.

Maybe to answer the question that I think you're actually asking: each of those players provides things that the team needs; so if I'm losing/trading one of them I need to somehow replace those things.

Nothing in return -- you just have to cut one.

You'd still have to add a rotation-quality player to replace what you're losing. That's why I said that. Each of those players adds different things. Incidentally Daniel Theis might have been a better one on this list than Robert Williams, since he's a starter.

I suppose I should admire your persistence in your anti-Derrick White campaign; and I must say I'm not bothered by it. It's one of those discussions that makes you take a closer look at what you actually know vs. your impressions and assumptions.

I'm a little surprised to see a group of people say Pritchard so quickly.

I am, too, especially after his recent surge. He'll make some big shots in playoff games this year.

[sgrogan]

If you could only have three of the following players, who would you take? Meaning, which one would you drop?

Robert Williams
Grant Williams
Payton Pritchard
Derrick White

Depends on what I'm getting back in return.

Maybe to answer the question that I think you're actually asking: each of those players provides things that the team needs; so if I'm losing/trading one of them I need to somehow replace those things.

Nothing in return -- you just have to cut one.

You'd still have to add a rotation-quality player to replace what you're losing. That's why I said that. Each of those players adds different things. Incidentally Daniel Theis might have been a better one on this list than Robert Williams, since he's a starter.

I suppose I should admire your persistence in your anti-Derrick White campaign; and I must say I'm not bothered by it. It's one of those discussions that makes you take a closer look at what you actually know vs. your impressions and assumptions.

All 4 are rotation players, so of course you need to factor replacement. But first and foremost, which player do you value least going forward?

I think both the Williams' are staying in anyone's book. You're not losing one of them for either Pritchard or White.

I'm a little surprised to see a group of people say Pritchard so quickly. It's obviously between him and White -- I think frankly it's a pretty close call. I do think Pritchard's stubbornness as a scorer is important. The guy wants to hoist it at all times, and believes its going in.... need a guy like that on your bench.

I'm influenced by how I think Ime would alter the rotation.

GWIII
Theis is here as insurance for just this. Theis minutes go up, but Ime's not going to play him 30 mins, so Grant plays a little more, Tatum plays more 4, Brown more 3 and White's minutes go up.

Grant
Again Theis, Al plays more 4. Tatum and Brown slot up and Whites minutes go up.

White
Pritchards minutes go up, Nesmith would probably have to play some. Maybe Theis and Grant plays some 3, not excited about that.
Ime would probably play Marcus 38 mpg.

Pritchard.
Whites minutes go up. I don't think Nesmith adds anything in this case, so probably Brown and Smart take the rest of the minutes.

[todd_days_41]

My point in all this discussion of White v. Richardson is the Celtics traded away the equivalent of TimeLord, Grant, or PP -- the Celtics last three draft picks in the 20s ('18, '19, '20) -- to acquire White.

Clearly an argument can be made that they're all more valuable players than Derrick himself -- at WAY better value considering the Celtics year-over-year cap / tax management -- much less giving Richardson, Langford and the absurd '28 pick swap in the balance.

A large reason why i think the deal was really poor.

[bdm860]

My point in all this discussion of White v. Richardson is the Celtics traded away the equivalent of TimeLord, Grant, or PP -- the Celtics last three draft picks in the 20s ('18, '19, '20) -- to acquire White.

Clearly an argument can be made that they're all more valuable players than Derrick himself -- at WAY better value considering the Celtics year-over-year cap / tax management -- much less giving Richardson, Langford and the absurd '28 pick swap in the balance.

A large reason why i think the deal was really poor.

Directionally, I think that could be an okay way to evaluate a trade, but you're doing it wrong, because it's far from a guarantee you're going to land those caliber of players in the 20's.  Could easily be Zizic, RJ Hunter, Sullinger, Fab Melo, JaJuan Johnson.

It's more like, the Celtics traded away a 20% chance of drafting a Grant Williams or Payton Pritchard, or a 5% chance of drafting the next Time Lord.  Are those options better than 100% of Derrick White?

20% chance to draft the next Grant Williams or 100% you get Derrick White?  That's the way you should look at it.  I would take White.

[todd_days_41]

My point in all this discussion of White v. Richardson is the Celtics traded away the equivalent of TimeLord, Grant, or PP -- the Celtics last three draft picks in the 20s ('18, '19, '20) -- to acquire White.

Clearly an argument can be made that they're all more valuable players than Derrick himself -- at WAY better value considering the Celtics year-over-year cap / tax management -- much less giving Richardson, Langford and the absurd '28 pick swap in the balance.

A large reason why i think the deal was really poor.

Directionally, I think that could be an okay way to evaluate a trade, but you're doing it wrong, because it's far from a guarantee you're going to land those caliber of players in the 20's.  Could easily be Zizic, RJ Hunter, Sullinger, Fab Melo, JaJuan Johnson.

It's more like, the Celtics traded away a 20% chance of drafting a Grant Williams or Payton Pritchard, or a 5% chance of drafting the next Time Lord.  Are those options better than 100% of Derrick White?

20% chance to draft the next Grant Williams or 100% you get Derrick White?  That's the way you should look at it.  I would take White.

Not sure what the relevance of guys taken 10 years ago is. Think I stated pretty clearly that those are the Cs last three picks in the 20s. In consecutive years. Is there 100% chance they get another solid rotation player? No. But your percentages don't reflect current reality. They've managed to get players of equal to better value than White in those spots recently.

[Roy H.]

My point in all this discussion of White v. Richardson is the Celtics traded away the equivalent of TimeLord, Grant, or PP -- the Celtics last three draft picks in the 20s ('18, '19, '20) -- to acquire White.

Clearly an argument can be made that they're all more valuable players than Derrick himself -- at WAY better value considering the Celtics year-over-year cap / tax management -- much less giving Richardson, Langford and the absurd '28 pick swap in the balance.

A large reason why i think the deal was really poor.

Directionally, I think that could be an okay way to evaluate a trade, but you're doing it wrong, because it's far from a guarantee you're going to land those caliber of players in the 20's.  Could easily be Zizic, RJ Hunter, Sullinger, Fab Melo, JaJuan Johnson.

It's more like, the Celtics traded away a 20% chance of drafting a Grant Williams or Payton Pritchard, or a 5% chance of drafting the next Time Lord.  Are those options better than 100% of Derrick White?

20% chance to draft the next Grant Williams or 100% you get Derrick White?  That's the way you should look at it.  I would take White.

Not sure what the relevance of guys taken 10 years ago is. Think I stated pretty clearly that those are the Cs last three picks in the 20s. In consecutive years. Is there 100% chance they get another solid rotation player? No. But your percentages don't reflect current reality. They've managed to get players of equal to better value than White in those spots recently.

Well, only Timelord is better than White.  Also, those were all Danny picks, which seems relevant.  Brad obviously didn’t trust himself to pick a guy better than White.

[bdm860]

My point in all this discussion of White v. Richardson is the Celtics traded away the equivalent of TimeLord, Grant, or PP -- the Celtics last three draft picks in the 20s ('18, '19, '20) -- to acquire White.

Clearly an argument can be made that they're all more valuable players than Derrick himself -- at WAY better value considering the Celtics year-over-year cap / tax management -- much less giving Richardson, Langford and the absurd '28 pick swap in the balance.

A large reason why i think the deal was really poor.

Directionally, I think that could be an okay way to evaluate a trade, but you're doing it wrong, because it's far from a guarantee you're going to land those caliber of players in the 20's.  Could easily be Zizic, RJ Hunter, Sullinger, Fab Melo, JaJuan Johnson.

It's more like, the Celtics traded away a 20% chance of drafting a Grant Williams or Payton Pritchard, or a 5% chance of drafting the next Time Lord.  Are those options better than 100% of Derrick White?

20% chance to draft the next Grant Williams or 100% you get Derrick White?  That's the way you should look at it.  I would take White.

Not sure what the relevance of guys taken 10 years ago is. Think I stated pretty clearly that those are the Cs last three picks in the 20s. In consecutive years. Is there 100% chance they get another solid rotation player? No. But your percentages don't reflect current reality. They've managed to get players of equal to better value than White in those spots recently.

The relevance of guys taken 10 years ago is the same as relevance of a guy taken last year when determining how successfully the C's will be in the next draft.  None of them impact the outcome as every draft is different, but they form a larger pool of data to help make an educated decision.

[Celtics2021]

My point in all this discussion of White v. Richardson is the Celtics traded away the equivalent of TimeLord, Grant, or PP -- the Celtics last three draft picks in the 20s ('18, '19, '20) -- to acquire White.

Clearly an argument can be made that they're all more valuable players than Derrick himself -- at WAY better value considering the Celtics year-over-year cap / tax management -- much less giving Richardson, Langford and the absurd '28 pick swap in the balance.

A large reason why i think the deal was really poor.

Directionally, I think that could be an okay way to evaluate a trade, but you're doing it wrong, because it's far from a guarantee you're going to land those caliber of players in the 20's.  Could easily be Zizic, RJ Hunter, Sullinger, Fab Melo, JaJuan Johnson.

It's more like, the Celtics traded away a 20% chance of drafting a Grant Williams or Payton Pritchard, or a 5% chance of drafting the next Time Lord.  Are those options better than 100% of Derrick White?

20% chance to draft the next Grant Williams or 100% you get Derrick White?  That's the way you should look at it.  I would take White.

Not sure what the relevance of guys taken 10 years ago is. Think I stated pretty clearly that those are the Cs last three picks in the 20s. In consecutive years. Is there 100% chance they get another solid rotation player? No. But your percentages don't reflect current reality. They've managed to get players of equal to better value than White in those spots recently.

Well, only Timelord is better than White.  Also, those were all Danny picks, which seems relevant.  Brad obviously didn’t trust himself to pick a guy better than White.

And TimeLord only became better than White this year.  Even if Stevens were to have hit on the draft pick this year, he was unlikely to have performed better than White for the entirety of White’s 3.5 years remaining on his deal.

[Vermont Green]

My point in all this discussion of White v. Richardson is the Celtics traded away the equivalent of TimeLord, Grant, or PP -- the Celtics last three draft picks in the 20s ('18, '19, '20) -- to acquire White.

Clearly an argument can be made that they're all more valuable players than Derrick himself -- at WAY better value considering the Celtics year-over-year cap / tax management -- much less giving Richardson, Langford and the absurd '28 pick swap in the balance.

A large reason why i think the deal was really poor.

If you think that this year's pick is going to for sure result in a player equivalent to how GWill, RWill or Pritchard are playing right now, then I can see how you would be very much down on this trade.  Drafting is far more variable than that though.  And in the case of GWill and RWill, they did not do much of anything the first 3 seasons.  Do you want to make the Jays wait 3 more season to get some capable support?

I don't hate the trade.  White can't put the ball in the ocean so far but even with the poor shooting, the team has played well with him.  Better than we played with Richardson.  To me this feels like an overpay but time will tell.  I view a "in the 20s" pick (at 23 right now) as having less value than you seem to.  Sure, it could be a rotation player in 3 years, or it could be a G-Leaguer.

If it turns out to be both, meaning White continues to make us better and the pick turns out to be a decent player, I am still happy with the trade.  It is worth it to be better now rather than maybe better in a few years.

[todd_days_41]

My point in all this discussion of White v. Richardson is the Celtics traded away the equivalent of TimeLord, Grant, or PP -- the Celtics last three draft picks in the 20s ('18, '19, '20) -- to acquire White.

Clearly an argument can be made that they're all more valuable players than Derrick himself -- at WAY better value considering the Celtics year-over-year cap / tax management -- much less giving Richardson, Langford and the absurd '28 pick swap in the balance.

A large reason why i think the deal was really poor.

Directionally, I think that could be an okay way to evaluate a trade, but you're doing it wrong, because it's far from a guarantee you're going to land those caliber of players in the 20's.  Could easily be Zizic, RJ Hunter, Sullinger, Fab Melo, JaJuan Johnson.

It's more like, the Celtics traded away a 20% chance of drafting a Grant Williams or Payton Pritchard, or a 5% chance of drafting the next Time Lord.  Are those options better than 100% of Derrick White?

20% chance to draft the next Grant Williams or 100% you get Derrick White?  That's the way you should look at it.  I would take White.

Not sure what the relevance of guys taken 10 years ago is. Think I stated pretty clearly that those are the Cs last three picks in the 20s. In consecutive years. Is there 100% chance they get another solid rotation player? No. But your percentages don't reflect current reality. They've managed to get players of equal to better value than White in those spots recently.

Well, only Timelord is better than White.  Also, those were all Danny picks, which seems relevant.  Brad obviously didn’t trust himself to pick a guy better than White.

Yikes. Meanwhile, Grant Williams isn’t better than White? Can’t agree with that. 

[Hoopvortex]

My point in all this discussion of White v. Richardson is the Celtics traded away the equivalent of TimeLord, Grant, or PP -- the Celtics last three draft picks in the 20s ('18, '19, '20) -- to acquire White.

Clearly an argument can be made that they're all more valuable players than Derrick himself -- at WAY better value considering the Celtics year-over-year cap / tax management -- much less giving Richardson, Langford and the absurd '28 pick swap in the balance.

A large reason why i think the deal was really poor.

And in the case of GWill and RWill, they did not do much of anything the first 3 seasons. 

Grant was a rotation player who finished games in crunch time in his rookie year. They went to the ECF. He was a rotation player again last year, who shot above league-average from 3. THIS season is his third season.

So obviously his coaches, at least, are persuaded that he is doing "much of anything" for the team in his first three seasons.

[pokeKingCurtis]

It's like they spent a first round pick reconfiguring all of Josh Richardson's stats (in becoming Derrick White). Less good shooting, more passing and better defense.

My point in all this discussion of White v. Richardson is the Celtics traded away the equivalent of TimeLord, Grant, or PP -- the Celtics last three draft picks in the 20s ('18, '19, '20) -- to acquire White.

Clearly an argument can be made that they're all more valuable players than Derrick himself -- at WAY better value considering the Celtics year-over-year cap / tax management -- much less giving Richardson, Langford and the absurd '28 pick swap in the balance.

A large reason why i think the deal was really poor.

And in the case of GWill and RWill, they did not do much of anything the first 3 seasons. 

Grant was a rotation player who finished games in crunch time in his rookie year. They went to the ECF. He was a rotation player again last year, who shot above league-average from 3. THIS season is his third season.

So obviously his coaches, at least, are persuaded that he is doing "much of anything" for the team in his first three seasons.

I remember he stuffed that dude from the Raps. Good times.

If we see the Raps in the playoffs, gonna be a bitter series, with me hating Nick Nurse.

[nickagneta]

Sooooooo....anyone thinking about changing their grades?

Last 17 games White with 40/34.3/86.5 shooting splits. Over the last 8 games, he is at 45.2/50/83.3

Decent chance White could finish around 31% 3PT% in Boston after today, which is amazing given his 38.2/21.6/86.6 start in shooting his first 17 games in Green.

Theis at 7.8/1/4.5 shooting 59.6/37/68 shooting split in Boston. Since Timelord went down Theis' numbers are 13.5/1/5.1 with shooting splits of 58.9/41.7/71.4.

I loved the trades at the time and thought once these guys got acclimated their play would show how good the trades have been. Given the pick given up will probably be #26, that makes the White trade look even better.