Celtics trade grades?

[gouki88]

I think White is the better fit.  Richardson is the better scorer and shooter.  White is a much better passer and defender.  We probably overpaid for White but the ball moves better, he defends better and he blends better than Richardson.

I object to the notion that White is a much better defender than JR. Richardson's defensive versatility is an underrated part of his game, and I think White gets by more on smarts than skill on the defensive end.

Folks are making too much of White's defense on a team that was already defensively elite with Richardson.

We could win the title the next four seasons and I don't think you'd admit you're wrong, but man, you're just wrong.

If we look at just Richardson's last 16 games, so it mostly includes the good run for the team and ignores the three months of mediocrity before that (which Richardson was absolutely a part of), and compare them to White's first 16 games, we see that the Celtics score 5.3 more points per 100 possessions with White on the court than Richardson on the court (114.0 to 108.7), and give up 2.5 points (102.1 to 104.6) per possession fewer with White compared Richardson. 

The team overall was playing well for both of these samples (12-4 with Richardson and 13.3 with White).  But the team had an overall Net rating of 13.2 while Richardson was on it during that stretch, but only a 4.1 net rating with Richardson on the court, so 9.1 points worse.  With White on the team, the overall net rating has been a similar 13.0, but that rating barely changes with White on the court compared to off (11.9 with him on).

Both players were on the court a similar amount (25.6 for White and 23.0 for Richardson).  The Celtics are simply a much better team with White than Richardson, for all the reasons everyone has been telling you over the last 10 pages of this thread.  I really hope you can get over these blinders you've put on, because you're missing something special, and Derrick White is an important part of that.

Brilliant post. You’ve nailed it!

[Vermont Green]

The bottom line is that we sent out Richardson, Schroder, and Freedom and we got back White and Theis but also freed up time for Pritchard to be in the core rotation.  So what is better:

White
Theis
Pritchard

or

Richardson
Freedom
Schroder

I think it is pretty clear that we are better with White, Theis, and Pritchard (taking Schroder's minutes).  And that is with White shooting well below his career norms and Theis only now starting to get comfortable.   The impact of these player is not major, they are still all bench players.  I don't really understand the debate though.  Whether White or Richardson is a better defender?

If we still had Richardson and not White, we would still be playing well, probably not better, but not much worse either.

[feckless]

I think White is the better fit.  Richardson is the better scorer and shooter.  White is a much better passer and defender.  We probably overpaid for White but the ball moves better, he defends better and he blends better than Richardson.

I object to the notion that White is a much better defender than JR. Richardson's defensive versatility is an underrated part of his game, and I think White gets by more on smarts than skill on the defensive end.

Folks are making too much of White's defense on a team that was already defensively elite with Richardson.

I wonder if anyone else agrees with you on Richardson as a better defender than White.  I did not see Richardson as a defender.  And you have to admit that the ball movement has been contagious since White got here.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

I think White is the better fit.  Richardson is the better scorer and shooter.  White is a much better passer and defender.  We probably overpaid for White but the ball moves better, he defends better and he blends better than Richardson.

I object to the notion that White is a much better defender than JR. Richardson's defensive versatility is an underrated part of his game, and I think White gets by more on smarts than skill on the defensive end.

Folks are making too much of White's defense on a team that was already defensively elite with Richardson.

I don't think Richardson was as versatile as his reputation held. He was good on-ball against guards. He is good at getting over screens and using his length to bother opposing guards as he trails them. He contests jump shots well.

But I also think he got blown by a decent amount. He'd push too far up pressuring guards and get beat pretty easily going to the rim. He also wilted a bit when bigger players would take him down into the post. Suddenly his length disappeared against those players and he looked more like a guard than a wing on them.

He used to be a contender for all-defense, but he is not that anymore. He's an above average to good on-ball defender against guards. He's pretty average at guarding up with his versatility. He's pretty average as a help defender as well.

I think Richardson is a little better than White at bothering guards on the perimeter with his length. But I think White is better at staying in front of his man than Richardson and doesn't wilt as easily when bigger guys take him inside. I would say White is above average-to-good in all three areas. In fact, White is one of the best in the league at getting blocks and taking charges. Richardson is pretty average in both categories.

[Big333223]

The Celtics are 14-3 with White playing 26 mpg.

The fact that this is happening with White shooting 21% from 3 is an indication of everything else he's bringing to the table. If he settles in by playoff time and hits just his own career average from 3 (.334) I'll be happy.

[liam]

The Celtics are 14-3 with White playing 26 mpg.

The fact that this is happening with White shooting 21% from 3 is an indication of everything else he's bringing to the table. If he settles in by playoff time and hits just his own career average from 3 (.334) I'll be happy.

That would make us more deadly come playoff time. The defense is what will carry us night in night out...

[jambr380]

The bottom line is that we sent out Richardson, Schroder, and Freedom and we got back White and Theis but also freed up time for Pritchard to be in the core rotation.  So what is better:

White
Theis
Pritchard

or

Richardson
Freedom
Schroder

I think it is pretty clear that we are better with White, Theis, and Pritchard (taking Schroder's minutes).  And that is with White shooting well below his career norms and Theis only now starting to get comfortable.   The impact of these player is not major, they are still all bench players.  I don't really understand the debate though.  Whether White or Richardson is a better defender?

If we still had Richardson and not White, we would still be playing well, probably not better, but not much worse either.

I really dislike the argument that we essentially acquired Pritchard by trading away Schroder. A roster with Schroder and Pritchard is better than one with just Pritchard (yes, I realize we traded Schroder for Theis - and I am happy about that - but just don't think Pritchard should be considered somebody we traded for).

And yes, we have been playing very well, but we were also playing very well before the deadline. 6-1 in the 7 games just before and 15-6 from 12/29 until the deadline. This run started well before we acquired White and is due to the core players who were already on our team - especially Tatum and Smart - stepping up their games to another level.

[todd_days_41]

I think White is the better fit.  Richardson is the better scorer and shooter.  White is a much better passer and defender.  We probably overpaid for White but the ball moves better, he defends better and he blends better than Richardson.

I object to the notion that White is a much better defender than JR. Richardson's defensive versatility is an underrated part of his game, and I think White gets by more on smarts than skill on the defensive end.

Folks are making too much of White's defense on a team that was already defensively elite with Richardson.

We could win the title the next four seasons and I don't think you'd admit you're wrong, but man, you're just wrong.

If we look at just Richardson's last 16 games, so it mostly includes the good run for the team and ignores the three months of mediocrity before that (which Richardson was absolutely a part of), and compare them to White's first 16 games, we see that the Celtics score 5.3 more points per 100 possessions with White on the court than Richardson on the court (114.0 to 108.7), and give up 2.5 points (102.1 to 104.6) per possession fewer with White compared Richardson. 

The team overall was playing well for both of these samples (12-4 with Richardson and 13.3 with White).  But the team had an overall Net rating of 13.2 while Richardson was on it during that stretch, but only a 4.1 net rating with Richardson on the court, so 9.1 points worse.  With White on the team, the overall net rating has been a similar 13.0, but that rating barely changes with White on the court compared to off (11.9 with him on).

Both players were on the court a similar amount (25.6 for White and 23.0 for Richardson).  The Celtics are simply a much better team with White than Richardson, for all the reasons everyone has been telling you over the last 10 pages of this thread.  I really hope you can get over these blinders you've put on, because you're missing something special, and Derrick White is an important part of that.

..and yet White is often the only minus in the Cs box score (unless Theis joins him). Why?

My points remain:

1) I think the Cs are succeeding in spite of White, not because of him. Folks don't like small sample size when it comes to his shooting, and yet you're using one here to evidence him as a difference maker. Personally, I don't see that on the floor. I see a role player with good instincts whose a back seat guy with some plusses and (big) minuses.

2) The proof will be in the pudding of the playoffs. White is going to be a bullseye for opposing coaching schemes. Can he actually be used in the 4th quarter of games if he can't hit open jumpers? Won't know until it happens, but if he keeps shooting 20% from 3, I think the answer is no. We'll have to wait and see. Again, guards who can't shoot are HIGHLY limited in the playoffs.

Generally, I think fans struggle to dissociate the trades Stevens made at the deadline with the incredibly hot streak the Cs are on. Like, "stop questioning it just keep rubbing the rabbit's foot!" I don't. White has been worse than expected since he arrived here, and on paper the Cs overpaid at the time (much less now). I think the Theis trade was also garbage, though it bothers me less.

Again, I hope White shoots 50% from 3 the next 3-4 games so I can get a litany of pejorative, condescending posts like the one above. It would improve the Celtics considerably.

[Hoopvortex]

Pritchard's minutes are a function of Schroeder's departure -- as this board clamored for endlessly to such an end -- not Richardson's.

There’s a lot of truth in this. However, Pritchard has mostly been on the floor with White (especially) or Smart; he’s playing off the ball a lot. So Richardson’s departure also helps open an opportunity for him.

One way to think about the trade-deadline moves is that the Celtics are now more generalists, more versatile, on offense; Richardson needed someone else to get him shots, and Schroeder had to have the ball in his hands.

By the same token, Payton can spot up, like Richardson, but he is much more of a distributor, with better skills off the dribble. And unlike Dennis, he doesn’t have to dominate the ball to be effective.

[todd_days_41]

Pritchard's minutes are a function of Schroeder's departure -- as this board clamored for endlessly to such an end -- not Richardson's.

There’s a lot of truth in this. However, Pritchard has mostly been on the floor with White (especially) or Smart; he’s playing off the ball a lot. So Richardson’s departure also helps open an opportunity for him.

One way to think about the trade-deadline moves is that the Celtics are now more generalists, more versatile, on offense; Richardson needed someone else to get him shots, and Schroeder had to have the ball in his hands.

By the same token, Payton can spot up, like Richardson, but he is much more of a distributor, with better skills off the dribble. And unlike Dennis, he doesn’t have to dominate the ball to be effective.

I follow -- this point has been made repeatedly. If White walking the ball up the floor, passing it off, then going and standing in the corner, allows Pritchard to motion more, come off screens, etc. -- fantastic. That's a nice fringe benefit. I'm just not buying that's some special snowflake skill White brings to the table.

And again, I think it's absurd to suggest Pritchard couldn't play his current role with Richardson on the team or on the floor. That's simply an excuse that fits the "good trade" narrative, IMO. JR was a role-wing-off-the-bench then, he'd be one now.

Anyway, I think the point(s) have been made sufficiently at this point. I get my opinion is unpopular. We'll see how White and Theis do going forward.... lord help them. Hopefully it plays out better than I expect.

[Roy H.]

..and yet White is often the only minus in the Cs box score (unless Theis joins him). Why?

Probably because he's playing the bulk of the bench minutes, and is teamed up with lesser players?

And, he's +89 with the Celts.  Even if you discount the Philly game (where he was +41 in 27 minutes), he's still +48 here.

Josh Richardson was +53 here.

So, +53 in 44 games, or +89 in 17 games.  Explain to me how +/- is a winning argument for you?

[slamtheking]

..and yet White is often the only minus in the Cs box score (unless Theis joins him). Why?

Probably because he's playing the bulk of the bench minutes, and is teamed up with lesser players?

And, he's +89 with the Celts.  Even if you discount the Philly game (where he was +41 in 27 minutes), he's still +48 here.

Josh Richardson was +53 here.

So, +53 in 44 games, or +89 in 17 games.  Explain to me how +/- is a winning argument for you?

I don't think +/- is the go-to stat on this but to be fair, Richardson's time here was mostly during the early season floundering whereas White's only been here during the good times.  I have little doubt that if it was Richardson here instead of White, his +/- would look a helluva lot better than +53.

[Vermont Green]

The bottom line is that we sent out Richardson, Schroder, and Freedom and we got back White and Theis but also freed up time for Pritchard to be in the core rotation.  So what is better:

White
Theis
Pritchard

or

Richardson
Freedom
Schroder

I think it is pretty clear that we are better with White, Theis, and Pritchard (taking Schroder's minutes).  And that is with White shooting well below his career norms and Theis only now starting to get comfortable.   The impact of these player is not major, they are still all bench players.  I don't really understand the debate though.  Whether White or Richardson is a better defender?

If we still had Richardson and not White, we would still be playing well, probably not better, but not much worse either.

I really dislike the argument that we essentially acquired Pritchard by trading away Schroder. A roster with Schroder and Pritchard is better than one with just Pritchard (yes, I realize we traded Schroder for Theis - and I am happy about that - but just don't think Pritchard should be considered somebody we traded for).

And yes, we have been playing very well, but we were also playing very well before the deadline. 6-1 in the 6 games just before and 15-6 from 12/29 until the deadline. This run started well before we acquired White and is due to the core players who were already on our team - especially Tatum and Smart - stepping up their games to another level.

Not sure I disagree but I am looking at the deadline changes in aggregate.  Sure, we could have not traded anyone and just played Pritchard more.  But having Pritchard gave us guard depth that allowed us to trade Schroder without losing anything in the guard rotation while allowing us to improve our big rotation depth.  It is all part of the trade mix and I am sure went into the trade thinking.

I think the key to what is happening with Pritchard is who he is playing with.  He seems to play better with White than with either Richardson or Schroder.  The whole team is playing better with White really (well, other than Smart), but Pritchard in particular.  It isn't a real surprise as he played this well most of last season.

[sgrogan]

..and yet White is often the only minus in the Cs box score (unless Theis joins him). Why?

Probably because he's playing the bulk of the bench minutes, and is teamed up with lesser players?

And, he's +89 with the Celts.  Even if you discount the Philly game (where he was +41 in 27 minutes), he's still +48 here.

Josh Richardson was +53 here.

So, +53 in 44 games, or +89 in 17 games.  Explain to me how +/- is a winning argument for you?

I looked at the last 17 games for Richardson, he was + in 9 and - in 8, White is 8 and 9.

White is just a better fit, especially without Schroeder.
Pritchard could play with Marcus
Not so much with Schroeder because of defense, and not so much with Richardson because of play making.

If you want to argue we overpaid, fair.
If you want to argue that we could have Richardson as well, (he'd be playing over Pritchard), fair.

Richardson was having a career yr from 3 and White is having a career low.

[Roy H.]

..and yet White is often the only minus in the Cs box score (unless Theis joins him). Why?

Probably because he's playing the bulk of the bench minutes, and is teamed up with lesser players?

And, he's +89 with the Celts.  Even if you discount the Philly game (where he was +41 in 27 minutes), he's still +48 here.

Josh Richardson was +53 here.

So, +53 in 44 games, or +89 in 17 games.  Explain to me how +/- is a winning argument for you?

I don't think +/- is the go-to stat on this but to be fair, Richardson's time here was mostly during the early season floundering whereas White's only been here during the good times.  I have little doubt that if it was Richardson here instead of White, his +/- would look a helluva lot better than +53.

That's conjecture, though.  When he was here, the objective fact is that his +/- was poorer per game than White.  Did Richardson contribute to that number at all?

But, most of the numbers people cite for our turnaround are since January 1, 2022.  In that time, Richardson was +36, over 20 games.  And +47 of that came in just two games against Orlando and Sacramento.  So, even during the hot streak, Richardson was -11 over an 18 game selection.

+/- is not an effective argument for White critics.