Simmons will lose up to 31 million this year

[tazzmaniac]

Eh, Simmons isn't perfect, but I am taking his side on this one. Doc/Embiid threw him under the bus, he decided that it wasn't the right environment for him and requested a trade. Then, they didn't trade him, while at the same time fining him for missing games. Usually in a situation where a player has requested a trade, the team will tell that player to stay home until they have found a suitable trade partner (while still paying them in the process).

If I were a player, I would think carefully about whether or not I wanted to sign with Philly; they might hold you hostage and make you a villain to the rest of the world. Nobody would think anything if Philly had, you know, just traded the guy.

Disagree.  It was his choice to miss games.  It is not justified by his perception of a bad environment or lack of a trade.  The contract has meaning and both sides have obligations.  "no play, no pay", simple as that.

But objectively it was a bad environment - made even worse by the fact that your coach and the best player on your team created it. Simmons is a young player so his immaturity can be excused to an extent. But the Sixers as an organization should not get the same excuse. After 'the incident', they should have been begging for his forgiveness rather than leaking things to the press and presenting Simmons in an even worse light.

And this still does not change the perception of PHI in my mind. As I said in my post, other teams are typically much more willing to work with a player when a relationship or situation cannot be mended. PHI went the complete opposite direction, by making Simmons the most hated player in the NBA and fining him for the whole season. This has to be an unprecedented situation and I don't know why any other star player (or any player) would want to chance this when there are a myriad of other teams that have proven to work with players.

Bad environment?  LOL.  He's getting paid mega-millions to play a game.  The Sixers coddled Simmons throughout all his years there.  That includes Embiid who tried time and again to cheerlead Simmons to shoot 3pt shots.  In the 2019/20 season, they even had Embiid adjust his game to try to help Simmons which only led to Embiid having a relatively poor season and being miserable.  Coach Brown did nothing but support Simmons and even Doc coddled him for most of the season.  The Sixers are lucky that with all their bending over backwards to coddle Simmons that they didn't alienate Embiid. 

Simmons is 25 on his 2nd contract.  That's well past the point of where he should be treated like a kid.

Poor wording. The environment for him in Philly was solid for years - he really had nothing to complain about. It became a bad environment after the last playoff series. I thought I explained as much in my response(s), but apparently it didn't come across that way.

That's just weak sauce.  Simmons sucked in the playoffs and deserved the criticism.  What were they supposed to do?  Continue to coddle him until Embiid gets so fed up that he demands a trade?  If you're getting paid star money, you better put on your big boy pants and expect to be criticized when you don't perform. 

[tazzmaniac]

Seems to me that Simmons holds the cards.  He and his agent will refuse to report to BKLN unless the Sixers agree to pay him his withheld back pay. 

Rich Paul is no fool, which is why he counseled Simmons to sit out.  Dude won't lose a penny.

Don't see how that works out for Simmons.  That would kill his mental health argument.  He has nothing in his contract that would allow him to refuse to report if traded.  Per the NBA cba, players have 72 hours to report after being traded.  If Simmons were to refuse to do so, that becomes an NBA problem not just a Sixers problem.  The NBA is not going to want to set a precedent where players can refuse a trade and not suffer any consequences.   

[jambr380]

Seems to me that Simmons holds the cards.  He and his agent will refuse to report to BKLN unless the Sixers agree to pay him his withheld back pay. 

Rich Paul is no fool, which is why he counseled Simmons to sit out.  Dude won't lose a penny.

Don't see how that works out for Simmons.  That would kill his mental health argument.  He has nothing in his contract that would allow him to refuse to report if traded.  Per the NBA cba, players have 72 hours to report after being traded.  If Simmons were to refuse to do so, that becomes an NBA problem not just a Sixers problem.  The NBA is not going to want to set a precedent where players can refuse a trade and not suffer any consequences.

If Simmons doesn't report, what's the worst that can happen - they can suspend him without pay? That's already basically happening. If PHI wants Harden, they better be ready to pay up. HOU is already doing this with John Wall - it's not like some crazy thing to ask. They have no leg to stand on because they are already not paying him.

[johnnygreen]

I believe Simmons has a 15% trade kicker built into his contract. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't his new team have to pay him the additional 15%? I would seem to me, based on the fact that he has already lost about $19M in this seasons salary, he has close to $128M remaining on his deal. If you add in the 15% trade kicker, that would increase his contract value by about $19M, which is the amount of money he has lost to date. Maybe this was the basis for Simmons not being concerned about sitting out for as long as he has.

[celticsclay]

It’s very bizarre to me that people think it is justifiable for simmons to pack up his bag and go home cause of two tepid comments after a tough loss in a series he played awful.

[bdm860]

It’s very bizarre to me that people think it is justifiable for simmons to pack up his bag and go home cause of two tepid comments after a tough loss in a series he played awful.

Ya, I can't believe this is considered "being thrown under the bus."  Here's Embiid's comment:

 

  "I'll be honest," Embiid started before hesitating. "I thought the turning point was when we — I don't know how to say it — I thought the turning point was just, we had an open shot and we made one free throw, and we missed the other and then they came down and scored.

    "And we didn't get a good possession on the other end. Trae [Young] came back and he made a three and then from there down four, it's on me. I turned the ball over and tried to make something happen from the perimeter. But I thought that was the turning point."

In that comment, he's talking about Simmons (open shot), Thybulle (missed free throw), the team defense which was mostly Harris and Embiid (Young got by Harris and threw a lob over Embiid to Capella who scored), himself again ("we didn't get a good possession" was Embiid trying to back down Collins from the top of the guy and missing a shot over a double team), only if you're super sensitive is Young hitting a 3 attributable to Simmons (Simmons was guarding Young, but it was a 30 footer off a pick where Seth Curry was probably supposed to switch or double based on other possessions), and finally he ends with blaming himself (his turnover).

That statement is really being thrown under the bus?  He didn't single anybody out, blaming several guys on the team, and mostly blaming himself.

Is Embiid not allowed to acknowledge missed opportunities?




And then there's what Doc said:

Q: Can Simmons be the point guard on a championship team?

"I don't know that question or the answer to that right now," Rivers said. "I don't know the answer to that."

Okay that definitely stings, but that's not throwing him under the bus, blaming the loss on him either.  Could just mean he wants to shift Ben Simmons to SF or PF. 

Look at the whole press conference.  Doc starts off blaming turnovers (Embiid had 8, Simmons had 2).

When asked about Simmons shooting he started with, "Still believe in him" while admitting Simmons struggles from the line in the series.

Said the most disappointing part of the game was the turnovers (again not a Simmons criticism).

Mentions how Simmons delivered on defense (Trae shot 5-23).

Said Huerter was the deciding factor (guarded by Curry).

Said Embiid carried the load, carried it all night (only if you're a fragile narcissistic is that a dig on Simmons).

Said Joel was our guy, Trae was their guy, but Trae shot 5-23 with 6 turnovers, and it was other guys getting off.  Maybe Simmons is offended Joel was called the guy and not him? But talking about how great the Sixers did defending the man Simmons was guarding, sounds like criticism against the rest of the team (really Curry with Huerter) and not Simmons.


None of this is Doc throwing Simmons under the bus.

The problem here is clearly Simmons, if he's offended by this, I'm not sure there's a team in the league he can play for.

[celticsclay]

Eh, Simmons isn't perfect, but I am taking his side on this one. Doc/Embiid threw him under the bus, he decided that it wasn't the right environment for him and requested a trade. Then, they didn't trade him, while at the same time fining him for missing games. Usually in a situation where a player has requested a trade, the team will tell that player to stay home until they have found a suitable trade partner (while still paying them in the process).

If I were a player, I would think carefully about whether or not I wanted to sign with Philly; they might hold you hostage and make you a villain to the rest of the world. Nobody would think anything if Philly had, you know, just traded the guy.

Disagree.  It was his choice to miss games.  It is not justified by his perception of a bad environment or lack of a trade.  The contract has meaning and both sides have obligations.  "no play, no pay", simple as that.

But objectively it was a bad environment - made even worse by the fact that your coach and the best player on your team created it. Simmons is a young player so his immaturity can be excused to an extent. But the Sixers as an organization should not get the same excuse. After 'the incident', they should have been begging for his forgiveness rather than leaking things to the press and presenting Simmons in an even worse light.

And this still does not change the perception of PHI in my mind. As I said in my post, other teams are typically much more willing to work with a player when a relationship or situation cannot be mended. PHI went the complete opposite direction, by making Simmons the most hated player in the NBA and fining him for the whole season. This has to be an unprecedented situation and I don't know why any other star player (or any player) would want to chance this when there are a myriad of other teams that have proven to work with players.

Bad environment?  LOL.  He's getting paid mega-millions to play a game.  The Sixers coddled Simmons throughout all his years there.  That includes Embiid who tried time and again to cheerlead Simmons to shoot 3pt shots.  In the 2019/20 season, they even had Embiid adjust his game to try to help Simmons which only led to Embiid having a relatively poor season and being miserable.  Coach Brown did nothing but support Simmons and even Doc coddled him for most of the season.  The Sixers are lucky that with all their bending over backwards to coddle Simmons that they didn't alienate Embiid. 

Simmons is 25 on his 2nd contract.  That's well past the point of where he should be treated like a kid.

Poor wording. The environment for him in Philly was solid for years - he really had nothing to complain about. It became a bad environment after the last playoff series. I thought I explained as much in my response(s), but apparently it didn't come across that way.

That's just weak sauce.  Simmons sucked in the playoffs and deserved the criticism.  What were they supposed to do?  Continue to coddle him until Embiid gets so fed up that he demands a trade?  If you're getting paid star money, you better put on your big boy pants and expect to be criticized when you don't perform.

Hundred percent agree tazz. Acting like some light criticism after you sick entitles you to refuse to work, I mean jeez. It’s a ridiculous take.

[celticsclay]

It’s very bizarre to me that people think it is justifiable for simmons to pack up his bag and go home cause of two tepid comments after a tough loss in a series he played awful.

Ya, I can't believe this is considered "being thrown under the bus."  Here's Embiid's comment:

 

  "I'll be honest," Embiid started before hesitating. "I thought the turning point was when we — I don't know how to say it — I thought the turning point was just, we had an open shot and we made one free throw, and we missed the other and then they came down and scored.

    "And we didn't get a good possession on the other end. Trae [Young] came back and he made a three and then from there down four, it's on me. I turned the ball over and tried to make something happen from the perimeter. But I thought that was the turning point."

In that comment, he's talking about Simmons (open shot), Thybulle (missed free throw), the team defense which was mostly Harris and Embiid (Young got by Harris and threw a lob over Embiid to Capella who scored), himself again ("we didn't get a good possession" was Embiid trying to back down Collins from the top of the guy and missing a shot over a double team), only if you're super sensitive is Young hitting a 3 attributable to Simmons (Simmons was guarding Young, but it was a 30 footer off a pick where Seth Curry was probably supposed to switch or double based on other possessions), and finally he ends with blaming himself (his turnover).

That statement is really being thrown under the bus?  He didn't single anybody out, blaming several guys on the team, and mostly blaming himself.

Is Embiid not allowed to acknowledge missed opportunities?




And then there's what Doc said:

Q: Can Simmons be the point guard on a championship team?

"I don't know that question or the answer to that right now," Rivers said. "I don't know the answer to that."

Okay that definitely stings, but that's not throwing him under the bus, blaming the loss on him either.  Could just mean he wants to shift Ben Simmons to SF or PF. 

Look at the whole press conference.  Doc starts off blaming turnovers (Embiid had 8, Simmons had 2).

When asked about Simmons shooting he started with, "Still believe in him" while admitting Simmons struggles from the line in the series.

Said the most disappointing part of the game was the turnovers (again not a Simmons criticism).

Mentions how Simmons delivered on defense (Trae shot 5-23).

Said Huerter was the deciding factor (guarded by Curry).

Said Embiid carried the load, carried it all night (only if you're a fragile narcissistic is that a dig on Simmons).

Said Joel was our guy, Trae was their guy, but Trae shot 5-23 with 6 turnovers, and it was other guys getting off.  Maybe Simmons is offended Joel was called the guy and not him? But talking about how great the Sixers did defending the man Simmons was guarding, sounds like criticism against the rest of the team (really Curry with Huerter) and not Simmons.


None of this is Doc throwing Simmons under the bus.

The problem here is clearly Simmons, if he's offended by this, I'm not sure there's a team in the league he can play for.

Great point on the Embid comment. Can we all agree to stop the Embid threw him under the bus nonsense once and for all? If anything he threw tisse under the bus worse cause he actually missed a free throw. Tisse is a normal person though so he didn’t throw a year long fit over it. Players get criticized at this level every night in the nba. Let’s stop the madness here.

[jambr380]

Forget the phrase 'threw him under the bus' and focus more on how Simmons felt after the series. Is he soft? Sure, but it's up to a franchise to coddle their star player. That's just how it is. We also don't know what was said behind the scenes. We do know the media's take on what Doc and Embiid had to say at the time, and bdm seems to have brushed right over that part.

From sources close to Simmons:

According to sources close to Simmons, he’s upset that Embiid seemed to blame him for last season’s playoff loss, when Simmons did not blame Embiid for Embiid’s poor showing in the playoffs against the Toronto Raptors in 2019. He’s frustrated that Rivers didn’t come to see him while he was training in Los Angeles last summer.

I get it, Simmons should be tougher and deal with criticism better, but he isn't and he didn't. The fact that PHI seemed to make the problem worse by painting Simmons in a negative light throughout the process certainly didn't help.

And my main point all along is if they had just traded him - like every team in the history of the world has done - there would be no drama. Ben would be tearing it up with another team and PHI would be doing even better because they would have gotten a high level asset (or assets) to play at the beginning of the season. PHI is to blame in my opinion - they really blew it with one of their franchise players and needed to do a better job at making things better.

[Ogaju]

Two points to make here. If Simmons had a physical injury causing him to miss the season, we are not having this conversation. He has a mental injury and of course many do not acknowledge mental health as a real issue.

Second point, I can’t help but think Doc Rivers has something to do with the intransigence of the Sixers in this situation. This is the same guy that led players to Dallas to force a free agent to reverse his commitment to another team. The guy just doesn’t like to lose cherished players and he knows how valuable Simmons is to the Sixers.

[celticsclay]

Two points to make here. If Simmons had a physical injury causing him to miss the season, we are not having this conversation. He has a mental injury and of course many do not acknowledge mental health as a real issue.

Second point, I can’t help but think Doc Rivers has something to do with the intransigence of the Sixers in this situation. This is the same guy that led players to Dallas to force a free agent to reverse his commitment to another team. The guy just doesn’t like to lose cherished players and he knows how valuable Simmons is to the Sixers.

Jesus is this first part of this an awful take (and I say that as someone that lost their mom to depression). Simmons has leaked he will be ready to play in a week or two after being traded (physical conditioning). This is not how mental illness works. Secondly, he is not doing the conditions that need to be met to verify his mental illness (which for jobs are pretty minimal, and he is part of an extremely powerful union in the players association). The healthcare company I used to work with worked with a lot of nba players to reduce stigma surrounding mental health including Kevin love and Gordon Hayward. The nba has made a ton of progress on mental health (still some work to go) but there is no way simmons is losing every single game check if he was doing even the bare minimum for treatment. In most cases you only have to provide a monthly update to your employer. His actions make an absolute mockery of the progress that has been made around stigma and for anyone that has had to take disability from work for something related to mental health (which I did after the event with my mom). Please don’t defend this behavior on simmons it’s a really terrible thing. I’ll also add if all the above isn’t showing what a sham this was he has mentioned 8 other reasons before mental health and the timeline connecting his mental health comments and lost paychecks is a straight line.

Also are you aware he recently got caught running full court games with Dion waiters and other former players and was told by his agency to stop doing it cause it was making a mockery of his claims?

[Csfan1984]

If a guy is willing to walk away from that much money a team should trade him. It's ridiculous for this to have gone this far. The organization and player need to part ways no matter who is at fault.

[Ogaju]

Two points to make here. If Simmons had a physical injury causing him to miss the season, we are not having this conversation. He has a mental injury and of course many do not acknowledge mental health as a real issue.

Second point, I can’t help but think Doc Rivers has something to do with the intransigence of the Sixers in this situation. This is the same guy that led players to Dallas to force a free agent to reverse his commitment to another team. The guy just doesn’t like to lose cherished players and he knows how valuable Simmons is to the Sixers.

Jesus is this first part of this an awful take (and I say that as someone that lost their mom to depression). Simmons has leaked he will be ready to play in a week or two after being traded (physical conditioning). This is not how mental illness works. Secondly, he is not doing the conditions that need to be met to verify his mental illness (which for jobs are pretty minimal, and he is part of an extremely powerful union in the players association). The healthcare company I used to work with worked with a lot of nba players to reduce stigma surrounding mental health including Kevin love and Gordon Hayward. The nba has made a ton of progress on mental health (still some work to go) but there is no way simmons is losing every single game check if he was doing even the bare minimum for treatment. In most cases you only have to provide a monthly update to your employer. His actions make an absolute mockery of the progress that has been made around stigma and for anyone that has had to take disability from work for something related to mental health (which I did after the event with my mom). Please don’t defend this behavior on simmons it’s a really terrible thing. I’ll also add if all the above isn’t showing what a sham this was he has mentioned 8 other reasons before mental health and the timeline connecting his mental health comments and lost paychecks is a straight line.

Also are you aware he recently got caught running full court games with Dion waiters and other former players and was told by his agency to stop doing it cause it was making a mockery of his claims?

If Simmons has a physical injury he would not be subject to this scrutiny and doubt. That is a fact. Part of the scrutiny is because mental health is treated differently from physical health.

The doctors should be left to determine this matter, but if he had a physical injury claim it is prone to much less subjectivity.

[tazzmaniac]

Two points to make here. If Simmons had a physical injury causing him to miss the season, we are not having this conversation. He has a mental injury and of course many do not acknowledge mental health as a real issue.

Second point, I can’t help but think Doc Rivers has something to do with the intransigence of the Sixers in this situation. This is the same guy that led players to Dallas to force a free agent to reverse his commitment to another team. The guy just doesn’t like to lose cherished players and he knows how valuable Simmons is to the Sixers.

Jesus is this first part of this an awful take (and I say that as someone that lost their mom to depression). Simmons has leaked he will be ready to play in a week or two after being traded (physical conditioning). This is not how mental illness works. Secondly, he is not doing the conditions that need to be met to verify his mental illness (which for jobs are pretty minimal, and he is part of an extremely powerful union in the players association). The healthcare company I used to work with worked with a lot of nba players to reduce stigma surrounding mental health including Kevin love and Gordon Hayward. The nba has made a ton of progress on mental health (still some work to go) but there is no way simmons is losing every single game check if he was doing even the bare minimum for treatment. In most cases you only have to provide a monthly update to your employer. His actions make an absolute mockery of the progress that has been made around stigma and for anyone that has had to take disability from work for something related to mental health (which I did after the event with my mom). Please don’t defend this behavior on simmons it’s a really terrible thing. I’ll also add if all the above isn’t showing what a sham this was he has mentioned 8 other reasons before mental health and the timeline connecting his mental health comments and lost paychecks is a straight line.

Also are you aware he recently got caught running full court games with Dion waiters and other former players and was told by his agency to stop doing it cause it was making a mockery of his claims?

If Simmons has a physical injury he would not be subject to this scrutiny and doubt. That is a fact. Part of the scrutiny is because mental health is treated differently from physical health.

The doctors should be left to determine this matter, but if he had a physical injury claim it is prone to much less subjectivity.

LOL.  You mean the doctors that Simmons and Klutch Sports are paying for. 

[tazzmaniac]

Forget the phrase 'threw him under the bus' and focus more on how Simmons felt after the series. Is he soft? Sure, but it's up to a franchise to coddle their star player. That's just how it is. We also don't know what was said behind the scenes. We do know the media's take on what Doc and Embiid had to say at the time, and bdm seems to have brushed right over that part.

From sources close to Simmons:

According to sources close to Simmons, he’s upset that Embiid seemed to blame him for last season’s playoff loss, when Simmons did not blame Embiid for Embiid’s poor showing in the playoffs against the Toronto Raptors in 2019. He’s frustrated that Rivers didn’t come to see him while he was training in Los Angeles last summer.

I get it, Simmons should be tougher and deal with criticism better, but he isn't and he didn't. The fact that PHI seemed to make the problem worse by painting Simmons in a negative light throughout the process certainly didn't help.

And my main point all along is if they had just traded him - like every team in the history of the world has done - there would be no drama. Ben would be tearing it up with another team and PHI would be doing even better because they would have gotten a high level asset (or assets) to play at the beginning of the season. PHI is to blame in my opinion - they really blew it with one of their franchise players and needed to do a better job at making things better.

Simmons take on the Toronto series is an idiotic PR move.  Embiid was sick for most of that series.  Even so while Embiid shot poorly during the series, the Sixers were something like +89 when Embiid was on court.  In the 7th game, the Sixers were +10 in the 45 minutes Embiid played and -12 in the 3 minutes he was off court.  Embiid and to a lesser extent Butler carried the Sixers that series. 

As for Simmons being a franchise player, ROTFLOL.  Setting aside his skillset limitations, he doesn't have the mentality or work ethic to be a franchise player.  The Sixers mistake was spending so long coddling and trying to accommodate Simmons.