Tatum is an All Star; Brown Isn't

[LilRip]

Some possibilities for the injury replacement:

Bam- Hasn't played enough at only 27 games.
Jaylen- Not giving a second to a 9th place team
Siakam- Not giving a second to an 8th place team
Holiday- Not giving a third to the fourth place team. Although he should have made it over Middleton.
Sabonis- His team is truly awful this year at 19-34. There are no other all star's from teams out of the play in.
Beal- Hasn't been good enough this year, team out of play-in.

I think that leaves it between Jarret Allen and Lamelo Ball for the final spot. It will probably be Lamelo since if Atl, Bos and Tor all in the play in get one Cha probably should too. Although Allen is a frontcourt guy and the guy they are replacing is a front court guy.

Notice how I just made an all star argument many people agree with despite never mentioning the players actual level of play. Thats kind of dumb in my opinion (it leads to stuff like Kyle Korver and Jeff Teague making the 2015 team happen). But that is usually how it works at least to some extent. They should just expand the all-star game to 15 guys, the league has grown in size since the 12 man limit was last set.

I think Jaylen will make it if a second guy drops out.

No love for Miles Bridges?

After Allen, Lamelo, Bridges, I can see JB maybe making the cut.

[keevsnick]

Some possibilities for the injury replacement:

Bam- Hasn't played enough at only 27 games.
Jaylen- Not giving a second to a 9th place team
Siakam- Not giving a second to an 8th place team
Holiday- Not giving a third to the fourth place team. Although he should have made it over Middleton.
Sabonis- His team is truly awful this year at 19-34. There are no other all star's from teams out of the play in.
Beal- Hasn't been good enough this year, team out of play-in.

I think that leaves it between Jarret Allen and Lamelo Ball for the final spot. It will probably be Lamelo since if Atl, Bos and Tor all in the play in get one Cha probably should too. Although Allen is a frontcourt guy and the guy they are replacing is a front court guy.

Notice how I just made an all star argument many people agree with despite never mentioning the players actual level of play. Thats kind of dumb in my opinion (it leads to stuff like Kyle Korver and Jeff Teague making the 2015 team happen). But that is usually how it works at least to some extent. They should just expand the all-star game to 15 guys, the league has grown in size since the 12 man limit was last set.

I think Jaylen will make it if a second guy drops out.

No love for Miles Bridges?

After Allen, Lamelo, Bridges, I can see JB maybe making the cut.

I just think Brown has clearly been better than miles Bridges. And since Bridges isn't even the most deserving guy on his own team (that's Lamelo), i don't think he's really in the discussion.

[nickagneta]

Some possibilities for the injury replacement:

Bam- Hasn't played enough at only 27 games.
Jaylen- Not giving a second to a 9th place team
Siakam- Not giving a second to an 8th place team
Holiday- Not giving a third to the fourth place team. Although he should have made it over Middleton.
Sabonis- His team is truly awful this year at 19-34. There are no other all star's from teams out of the play in.
Beal- Hasn't been good enough this year, team out of play-in.

I think that leaves it between Jarret Allen and Lamelo Ball for the final spot. It will probably be Lamelo since if Atl, Bos and Tor all in the play in get one Cha probably should too. Although Allen is a frontcourt guy and the guy they are replacing is a front court guy.

Notice how I just made an all star argument many people agree with despite never mentioning the players actual level of play. Thats kind of dumb in my opinion (it leads to stuff like Kyle Korver and Jeff Teague making the 2015 team happen). But that is usually how it works at least to some extent. They should just expand the all-star game to 15 guys, the league has grown in size since the 12 man limit was last set.

I think Jaylen will make it if a second guy drops out.

No love for Miles Bridges?

After Allen, Lamelo, Bridges, I can see JB maybe making the cut.

Thing is, Jaylen is having a better year than all those guys.

Brown is going to be penalized because of Boston's mediocre record and because of Tatum's larger notoriety.

Brown is having arguably as good a year as Tatum and in many ways better year and is just as important to the team. But if only one guy from Boston is getting in, it's going to be Tatum who gets the better press.

[Muzzy66]

A bit surprised Garland and VanVleet both made it. They already have Trae Young. Three little PGs. There is only so much court time to go around. I thought they'd take 1 of 2 rather than both.

East's bench has no big men. Guards and forwards. I wonder if that will swing things the way of Jarrett Allen or Sabonis or a Mobley as an injury replacement over another wing like Jaylen Brown.

I'm surprised VanVleet made it at all.

The Raptors are only a half game up on the Celtics right now so they are far from great, and his numbers are good but hardly mindblowing and I really don't see him as an All-Star calibre player.

i get that he plays hard and with a lot of energy and I can appreciate that - but he's also quite undersized and pretty inefficient on offence.
 

[Muzzy66]

Some possibilities for the injury replacement:

Bam- Hasn't played enough at only 27 games.
Jaylen- Not giving a second to a 9th place team
Siakam- Not giving a second to an 8th place team
Holiday- Not giving a third to the fourth place team. Although he should have made it over Middleton.
Sabonis- His team is truly awful this year at 19-34. There are no other all star's from teams out of the play in.
Beal- Hasn't been good enough this year, team out of play-in.

I think that leaves it between Jarret Allen and Lamelo Ball for the final spot. It will probably be Lamelo since if Atl, Bos and Tor all in the play in get one Cha probably should too. Although Allen is a frontcourt guy and the guy they are replacing is a front court guy.

Notice how I just made an all star argument many people agree with despite never mentioning the players actual level of play. Thats kind of dumb in my opinion (it leads to stuff like Kyle Korver and Jeff Teague making the 2015 team happen). But that is usually how it works at least to some extent. They should just expand the all-star game to 15 guys, the league has grown in size since the 12 man limit was last set.

I think Jaylen will make it if a second guy drops out.

No love for Miles Bridges?

After Allen, Lamelo, Bridges, I can see JB maybe making the cut.

Thing is, Jaylen is having a better year than all those guys.

Brown is going to be penalized because of Boston's mediocre record and because of Tatum's larger notoriety.

Brown is having arguably as good a year as Tatum and in many ways better year and is just as important to the team. But if only one guy from Boston is getting in, it's going to be Tatum who gets the better press.

Its nothing to do with Tatum's notoriety and everything to do with Tatum simply being a better, more skilled and more talented player.

Tatum's numbers (26, 8 and 4) are significantly better then Brown's (24, 6 and 3), he's missed less games, his +/- impact stats last I checked were better (implying he has more impact on team wins) and he's had a 60 point game for the second season in a row (Brown has never had one in his career).

Granted, Tatum's shooting percentages have gone downhill bad this year (3 percentage points from the field and 2% percentage from three) - no idea why.  But Jaylens' numbers have dropped by the same amount (48% vs 45% FG and 40$ vs 36% 3PT).

Tatum is just straigth up better.  The gap is not huge by any means, but it's there.

[nebist]

Doesn’t this help the Cs tax situation due to JB all-star bonus?

[Kiorrik]

A bit surprised Garland and VanVleet both made it. They already have Trae Young. Three little PGs. There is only so much court time to go around. I thought they'd take 1 of 2 rather than both.

East's bench has no big men. Guards and forwards. I wonder if that will swing things the way of Jarrett Allen or Sabonis or a Mobley as an injury replacement over another wing like Jaylen Brown.

I'm surprised VanVleet made it at all.

The Raptors are only a half game up on the Celtics right now so they are far from great, and his numbers are good but hardly mindblowing and I really don't see him as an All-Star calibre player.

i get that he plays hard and with a lot of energy and I can appreciate that - but he's also quite undersized and pretty inefficient on offence.

Can't say I agree with the highlighted.

VanVleet's been great, and has a lotta votes from his market.

Love his play. Every time he played against us, if I recall correctly, I've posted something along the lines of "better than given credit for".

He's good.

Probably better than his stats.

[Celtics2021]

Doesn’t this help the Cs tax situation due to JB all-star bonus?

Yes, assuming JB isn’t added as an injury replacement.

The tricky thing is JB could be added after the trade deadline, so the question is whether the Celtics gamble that he won’t, and thus only move Fernando, or if they’re cautious and move additionally salary.

[PaxtonDarcy]

A bit surprised Garland and VanVleet both made it. They already have Trae Young. Three little PGs. There is only so much court time to go around. I thought they'd take 1 of 2 rather than both.

East's bench has no big men. Guards and forwards. I wonder if that will swing things the way of Jarrett Allen or Sabonis or a Mobley as an injury replacement over another wing like Jaylen Brown.

I'm surprised VanVleet made it at all.

The Raptors are only a half game up on the Celtics right now so they are far from great, and his numbers are good but hardly mindblowing and I really don't see him as an All-Star calibre player.

i get that he plays hard and with a lot of energy and I can appreciate that - but he's also quite undersized and pretty inefficient on offence.

Can't say I agree with the highlighted.

VanVleet's been great, and has a lotta votes from his market.

Love his play. Every time he played against us, if I recall correctly, I've posted something along the lines of "better than given credit for".

He's good.

Probably better than his stats.

Yea, this is a great take. Fred is, imo, pound for pound one of the best players in the league. Imagine if he were in boston. Dude is such a competitor.

[nickagneta]

Some possibilities for the injury replacement:

Bam- Hasn't played enough at only 27 games.
Jaylen- Not giving a second to a 9th place team
Siakam- Not giving a second to an 8th place team
Holiday- Not giving a third to the fourth place team. Although he should have made it over Middleton.
Sabonis- His team is truly awful this year at 19-34. There are no other all star's from teams out of the play in.
Beal- Hasn't been good enough this year, team out of play-in.

I think that leaves it between Jarret Allen and Lamelo Ball for the final spot. It will probably be Lamelo since if Atl, Bos and Tor all in the play in get one Cha probably should too. Although Allen is a frontcourt guy and the guy they are replacing is a front court guy.

Notice how I just made an all star argument many people agree with despite never mentioning the players actual level of play. Thats kind of dumb in my opinion (it leads to stuff like Kyle Korver and Jeff Teague making the 2015 team happen). But that is usually how it works at least to some extent. They should just expand the all-star game to 15 guys, the league has grown in size since the 12 man limit was last set.

I think Jaylen will make it if a second guy drops out.

No love for Miles Bridges?

After Allen, Lamelo, Bridges, I can see JB maybe making the cut.

Thing is, Jaylen is having a better year than all those guys.

Brown is going to be penalized because of Boston's mediocre record and because of Tatum's larger notoriety.

Brown is having arguably as good a year as Tatum and in many ways better year and is just as important to the team. But if only one guy from Boston is getting in, it's going to be Tatum who gets the better press.

Its nothing to do with Tatum's notoriety and everything to do with Tatum simply being a better, more skilled and more talented player.

Tatum's numbers (26, 8 and 4) are significantly better then Brown's (24, 6 and 3), he's missed less games, his +/- impact stats last I checked were better (implying he has more impact on team wins) and he's had a 60 point game for the second season in a row (Brown has never had one in his career).

Granted, Tatum's shooting percentages have gone downhill bad this year (3 percentage points from the field and 2% percentage from three) - no idea why.  But Jaylens' numbers have dropped by the same amount (48% vs 45% FG and 40$ vs 36% 3PT).

Tatum is just straigth up better.  The gap is not huge by any means, but it's there.

Being more skilled or being a better overall player means nothing when deciding which player is having a better year or is more important to the team in a given year, which should decide All-Star status in any given year.

Since both play over 34 minutes comparing the two by per 36 minutes is fair:

Stat: Jaylen/Jayson
Points: 25.2/25.6
Rebounds: 6.9/8.4
Assists: 3.2/4.1
Steals: 1.1/0.9
Blocks: 0.4/0.7
Turnovers: 3.1/2.9
FGA: 19.9/20.7
FG%: 45.9/43
3PT%: 35.7/32.7
TS%: 56.9/54.9
Team winning % when they play: 53.8/53

The stats are ridiculously similar with the only key differences being Tatum has a decent rebounding edge whereas Jaylen has a much more than decent shooting edge(2-3 percentage point different in shooting is the difference between above average to below average).

Defensively, Tatum 99% of the time is initially assigned the much easier player to guard and Brown the much better all while Brown playing better overall defense. This is significant.

And if you want to bring up insignificant one game performances, Tatum had a 60 point game, but Brown had a 50 point game and a triple double, which Tatum has not had.

I stand by my statement:

Brown is having arguably as good a year as Tatum and in many ways better year(shooting and defense) and is just as important to the team(team winning percent). But if only one guy from Boston is getting in, it's going to be Tatum who gets the better press. Tatum has the better notoriety.

[Vermont Green]

Some possibilities for the injury replacement:

Bam- Hasn't played enough at only 27 games.
Jaylen- Not giving a second to a 9th place team
Siakam- Not giving a second to an 8th place team
Holiday- Not giving a third to the fourth place team. Although he should have made it over Middleton.
Sabonis- His team is truly awful this year at 19-34. There are no other all star's from teams out of the play in.
Beal- Hasn't been good enough this year, team out of play-in.

I think that leaves it between Jarret Allen and Lamelo Ball for the final spot. It will probably be Lamelo since if Atl, Bos and Tor all in the play in get one Cha probably should too. Although Allen is a frontcourt guy and the guy they are replacing is a front court guy.

Notice how I just made an all star argument many people agree with despite never mentioning the players actual level of play. Thats kind of dumb in my opinion (it leads to stuff like Kyle Korver and Jeff Teague making the 2015 team happen). But that is usually how it works at least to some extent. They should just expand the all-star game to 15 guys, the league has grown in size since the 12 man limit was last set.

I think Jaylen will make it if a second guy drops out.

No love for Miles Bridges?

After Allen, Lamelo, Bridges, I can see JB maybe making the cut.

Thing is, Jaylen is having a better year than all those guys.

Brown is going to be penalized because of Boston's mediocre record and because of Tatum's larger notoriety.

Brown is having arguably as good a year as Tatum and in many ways better year and is just as important to the team. But if only one guy from Boston is getting in, it's going to be Tatum who gets the better press.

Its nothing to do with Tatum's notoriety and everything to do with Tatum simply being a better, more skilled and more talented player.

Tatum's numbers (26, 8 and 4) are significantly better then Brown's (24, 6 and 3), he's missed less games, his +/- impact stats last I checked were better (implying he has more impact on team wins) and he's had a 60 point game for the second season in a row (Brown has never had one in his career).

Granted, Tatum's shooting percentages have gone downhill bad this year (3 percentage points from the field and 2% percentage from three) - no idea why.  But Jaylens' numbers have dropped by the same amount (48% vs 45% FG and 40$ vs 36% 3PT).

Tatum is just straigth up better.  The gap is not huge by any means, but it's there.

Being more skilled or being a better overall player means nothing when deciding which player is having a better year or is more important to the team in a given year, which should decide All-Star status in any given year.

Since both play over 34 minutes comparing the two by per 36 minutes is fair:

Stat: Jaylen/Jayson
Points: 25.2/25.6
Rebounds: 6.9/8.4
Assists: 3.2/4.1
Steals: 1.1/0.9
Blocks: 0.4/0.7
Turnovers: 3.1/2.9
FGA: 19.9/20.7
FG%: 45.9/43
3PT%: 35.7/32.7
TS%: 56.9/54.9
Team winning % when they play: 53.8/53

The stats are ridiculously similar with the only key differences being Tatum has a decent rebounding edge whereas Jaylen has a much more than decent shooting edge(2-3 percentage point different in shooting is the difference between above average to below average).

Defensively, Tatum 99% of the time is initially assigned the much easier player to guard and Brown the much better all while Brown playing better overall defense. This is significant.

And if you want to bring up insignificant one game performances, Tatum had a 60 point game, but Brown had a 50 point game and a triple double, which Tatum has not had.

I stand by my statement:

Brown is having arguably as good a year as Tatum and in many ways better year(shooting and defense) and is just as important to the team(team winning percent). But if only one guy from Boston is getting in, it's going to be Tatum who gets the better press. Tatum has the better notoriety.

The stats are real but Tatum is better based on what I see on the court.  Tatum is having one of his if not his worst season in terms of shooting efficiency.  Part of the reason is that he is just missing shots that he will generally make and the other reason is that the defense is more focused on him than Brown.  More doubles and other schemes to "make someone else beat you". 

The defensive schemes don't play out in the stats directly but I bet that Brown has lower shooting efficiency when Tatum doesn't play and more focus is on him.  You see this though when you watch the game.  Brown is great, I love Brown, Tatum is better.

As to the final All Star slot, Brown is probably roughly as deserving of getting it as several other players.  I don't know how you decide.  I would probably give the nod to Bradley Beal.  Yes, it is partly due to his career vs. his season but so what.

[jambr380]

Tatum has also played in 49 games to Jaylen's 39 games. The Cs were only ever going to get one All-Star, so Tatum it is (and I think it is deserving). As far as replacements go, at least 3 guys would have to be out for Jaylen to even have a chance at this point.

Jaylen is an incredible player and I am super-happy to have him on the Cs, but it's really difficult to make a case for him - especially over Tatum.

[RJ87]

Some possibilities for the injury replacement:

Bam- Hasn't played enough at only 27 games.
Jaylen- Not giving a second to a 9th place team
Siakam- Not giving a second to an 8th place team
Holiday- Not giving a third to the fourth place team. Although he should have made it over Middleton.
Sabonis- His team is truly awful this year at 19-34. There are no other all star's from teams out of the play in.
Beal- Hasn't been good enough this year, team out of play-in.

I think that leaves it between Jarret Allen and Lamelo Ball for the final spot. It will probably be Lamelo since if Atl, Bos and Tor all in the play in get one Cha probably should too. Although Allen is a frontcourt guy and the guy they are replacing is a front court guy.

Notice how I just made an all star argument many people agree with despite never mentioning the players actual level of play. Thats kind of dumb in my opinion (it leads to stuff like Kyle Korver and Jeff Teague making the 2015 team happen). But that is usually how it works at least to some extent. They should just expand the all-star game to 15 guys, the league has grown in size since the 12 man limit was last set.

I think Jaylen will make it if a second guy drops out.

No love for Miles Bridges?

After Allen, Lamelo, Bridges, I can see JB maybe making the cut.

Thing is, Jaylen is having a better year than all those guys.

Brown is going to be penalized because of Boston's mediocre record and because of Tatum's larger notoriety.

Brown is having arguably as good a year as Tatum and in many ways better year and is just as important to the team. But if only one guy from Boston is getting in, it's going to be Tatum who gets the better press.

Its nothing to do with Tatum's notoriety and everything to do with Tatum simply being a better, more skilled and more talented player.

Tatum's numbers (26, 8 and 4) are significantly better then Brown's (24, 6 and 3), he's missed less games, his +/- impact stats last I checked were better (implying he has more impact on team wins) and he's had a 60 point game for the second season in a row (Brown has never had one in his career).

Granted, Tatum's shooting percentages have gone downhill bad this year (3 percentage points from the field and 2% percentage from three) - no idea why.  But Jaylens' numbers have dropped by the same amount (48% vs 45% FG and 40$ vs 36% 3PT).

Tatum is just straigth up better.  The gap is not huge by any means, but it's there.

Being more skilled or being a better overall player means nothing when deciding which player is having a better year or is more important to the team in a given year, which should decide All-Star status in any given year.

Since both play over 34 minutes comparing the two by per 36 minutes is fair:

Stat: Jaylen/Jayson
Points: 25.2/25.6
Rebounds: 6.9/8.4
Assists: 3.2/4.1
Steals: 1.1/0.9
Blocks: 0.4/0.7
Turnovers: 3.1/2.9
FGA: 19.9/20.7
FG%: 45.9/43
3PT%: 35.7/32.7
TS%: 56.9/54.9
Team winning % when they play: 53.8/53

The stats are ridiculously similar with the only key differences being Tatum has a decent rebounding edge whereas Jaylen has a much more than decent shooting edge(2-3 percentage point different in shooting is the difference between above average to below average).

Defensively, Tatum 99% of the time is initially assigned the much easier player to guard and Brown the much better all while Brown playing better overall defense. This is significant.

And if you want to bring up insignificant one game performances, Tatum had a 60 point game, but Brown had a 50 point game and a triple double, which Tatum has not had.

I stand by my statement:

Brown is having arguably as good a year as Tatum and in many ways better year(shooting and defense) and is just as important to the team(team winning percent). But if only one guy from Boston is getting in, it's going to be Tatum who gets the better press. Tatum has the better notoriety.

The stats are real but Tatum is better based on what I see on the court.  Tatum is having one of his if not his worst season in terms of shooting efficiency.  Part of the reason is that he is just missing shots that he will generally make and the other reason is that the defense is more focused on him than Brown.  More doubles and other schemes to "make someone else beat you". 

The defensive schemes don't play out in the stats directly but I bet that Brown has lower shooting efficiency when Tatum doesn't play and more focus is on him.  You see this though when you watch the game.  Brown is great, I love Brown, Tatum is better.

As to the final All Star slot, Brown is probably roughly as deserving of getting it as several other players.  I don't know how you decide.  I would probably give the nod to Bradley Beal.  Yes, it is partly due to his career vs. his season but so what.

I agree. Especially since reserves are voted in by coaches. I don't believe they voted Tatum in because he has better press or notoriety. Rather they vote for the guy they have to gameplan for the most.

[ozgod]

A bit surprised Garland and VanVleet both made it. They already have Trae Young. Three little PGs. There is only so much court time to go around. I thought they'd take 1 of 2 rather than both.

East's bench has no big men. Guards and forwards. I wonder if that will swing things the way of Jarrett Allen or Sabonis or a Mobley as an injury replacement over another wing like Jaylen Brown.

This All Star Game has gotten gimmicky over the years and been more about recognition than actually putting together a winning team for a while now so I'm not surprised with the imbalance of the selections. And since the actual teams will be picked by LeBum and KD (or whoever replaces him as captain) I'm sure they will not all end up on the same team (but again I won't be surprised if they will).

My own view is that JB shouldn't be all that surprised...it's hard to pick 2 All Stars from a .500 team that has been underperforming  most of the season unless those selections have lots of credit banked up. He would certainly have deserved selection, but I can understand why he wasn't selected.

[Moranis]

Tatum has played 10 more games than Brown.  Tatum's on/off differential is +10.6, Brown's is +6.1.  Tatum also has a higher pure +- at 5.3 to 4.6.   Tatum has higher WS, WS/48, VORP, BPM (all 3 even defensively), and basically every advanced metric you can look at.  Tatum has nearly double the AST% and a lower TOV%, better TRB% (as well as ORB and DRB) and BLK%.  Brown has a better STL%.  Brown is shooting better from 2 and 3, though Tatum is better from the line with a better FTr. 

Given all of that, as well as the totals, it is basically impossible to argue with a straight face that Brown is more deserving of an all star nod unless the only thing you care about is FG% and even then have to disregard the 25% more games Tatum has played.