Discouraging Tatum & Brown Partnership Stats

[Ed Monix]

[Kuberski33]

So if - as has been reported - the Celtics are committed to keeping both of them, it may be a case of them trying to put square pegs in round holes. Trying to get players to change habits established since probably the time they were kids playing AAU ball is hard, to put it mildly.

They're saying the right things- and I do see Tatum trying to make an effort to change his game a bit. But it's hard to change long established habits. 

That said, the poor numbers this year may speak to how badly the team has been playing - and the quality of their PG play to date.

[seancally]

39-19 all-time when the pair combine for 50 points.

[colincb]

What do you think these numbers prove?

[JohnBoy65]

I thought last night proved exactly how and why they can work together. Tatum didn't have it going all night. Jaylen took over when we needed him to. (Albeit that spark ended up not being enough in regulation) and Tatum completely realized it. He took a back seat to Jaylen and worked to get him the ball. That's pretty special for a 24 year old. How many 'stars' would've tried to shoot their way out of an in game slump?

Furthermore, Brown didn't pout when Tatum got the last shot and made it. I believe they can and will work together.

[PhoSita]

The lesson I see w/ Tatum and Brown is that they can certainly play together and the team can do quite well with them on the floor, but you just can't design a gameplan around those two guys.  They don't play off one another, they don't have a two-man game, and neither of them is an average or better creator.

So you have to design lineups, and an overall offensive system, that's premised on something else -- e.g. guard-big pick and rolls / pick-and-pops, or whatever -- and just take advantage of the great luxury of having two high volume individual scorers playing at the wing spots.


In other words, I think you should kind of pretend that instead of Tatum and Brown you just have a couple of average starting-caliber NBA wings.  Such as, let's say, Will Barton and Harrison Barnes. 

Then, you build a lineup around that, and a basic gameplan, that would consistently generate good looks and work well with those two players at the wing spots.  The example I would like would be having a potent lead pick and roll ballhandler (take your pick of any one of like 10-15 guys in the league) running pick and roll with a lob threat (e.g. Rob Williams). 

Tatum and Brown can function quite well in that sort of setup, and because they are actually more more offensively potent than your Will Barton / Harrison Barnes type player, they can occasionally get hot, break out of the base formula, and carry the team on a run.  But you need a foundation that can consistently generate good looks which does not revolve around either Tatum or Brown.

In this way, my view of Tatum and Brown is that they raise the ceiling of your team, but they don't really establish a floor.  Which is why the current team is so inconsistent.  Because we're relying on guys like Marcus Smart, Dennis Schroder, and 35+ year old Al Horford to establish the floor. 

Of course, on top of that you have the fact that neither Tatum nor Brown has consistently been effective at closing games.  Which means you would ideally have that lead pick and roll ballhandler I mentioned before be a guy who has a long track record of creating and hitting clutch shots.

[Neurotic Guy]

I’d be open to any changes Brad Stevens has in mind, but one thing I’d like to see in lieu of giving up on the Jays combo is a strong (mentally), confident, floor general with great vision.  Someone to take a leadership role in helping them coexist effectively.  I get that other threads have addressed the challenge in finding such a player but it does seem to me to be Plan A.

[keevsnick]

To be honest I don't really find those stats all that discouraging.

The "inter" passing stuff is widely overated. The role of actual on ball creator is fairly new for both guys. Tatum and Brown really only ascended to clear cut # 1 and 2 options last year, before that Kemba and Kyrie held that mantle. So when A) You're operating mostly as finishers and B) you're just learning how to run the offense I wouldn't expect you to have a ton of assist between you. Just as importantly, the other team knows who the bets scorers are. If Tatum and Brown are out there together and say Tatum has the ball, they aren't helping off Brown to double Tatum. They're helping off Smart, Or Shcroder, or Al. Literally anybody else but Brown.

There are plenty of other ways you can fit well together as teammates without making passes that directly lead to buckets.

As for the eFG percentage stuff. Well that chart shows you that as recently as last year they were both positive with the other in, and this year has just been weird between Tatum's massive cold streak to start the year and brown missing time with the hammy. There's no reason to believe that one of those guys being on/off effects the ability of the other to hit shots. Its small sample size, data noise nonsense.

[Donoghus]

What do you think these numbers prove?

TBH, not much.

[blink]

I am not sure these stats mean anything at all.  Sometimes they shoot better with the other guy, sometimes they shoot better without...so what?

How about the coaches actually provide some actual basketball instruction to Tatum and Brown to start integrating a 2 man game into our offense?  These are young guys who don't have all the years of basketball experience that supposedly the coaching staff does.  Both Tatum and Brown seem willing to make it work, but they aren't the coach.  It is the coaches job to come up with an offensive system.  Sometimes it doesn't even look like we have a system. 

I don't think Ime is going to get fired, because the C's management is going to give him a couple years, but I haven't been impressed with our coaching this year.  Ime is good at throwing the guys under the bus after these bad losses, but he isn't taking much responsibility himself. 

[Kuberski33]

I’d be open to any changes Brad Stevens has in mind, but one thing I’d like to see in lieu of giving up on the Jays combo is a strong (mentally), confident, floor general with great vision.  Someone to take a leadership role in helping them coexist effectively.  I get that other threads have addressed the challenge in finding such a player but it does seem to me to be Plan A.

Or give them a 3rd option at the end of games besides Tatum runs the point and creates his own shot or Jaylen either tries to get to the basket or pulls up and shoots a contested jumper.

It was interesting to me that last night at the end Udoka had both Smart and Schroder on the bench with Tatum acting as the PG. Maybe he's finally seen enough?

[Who]

I was thinking about Jaylen & Tatum relative to Bird, Parish and McHale recently. This thread has got me thinking about it a 2nd time.

The first time I was thinking about how the Jays were more like Parish & McHale in 1989 when Bird was injured. That Bird was the player that brought the team together and made everything work together. The player who made others around him better. Parish and McHale were the supporting stars who performed well individually without Bird around but struggled to make the team come together and others around them better.

This thread got me thinking about that again in terms of player interactions. McHale and Parish did not interact much together on offense. It was usually Bird who did the playmaking. When Parish or McHale got the ball down the low they were usually looking to go one-on-one and put a shot up rather than looking to hit cutters or draw a double team and pass out for an open shot. They performed individually on offense. When they did it was usually a sideways pass from the top of the key or the elbow but it was a self-generated scoring move whenever they caught the ball in an area where they liked to operate.

They occupied defenders and made it more difficult to send help but they didn't create much for each other with their passing. A little but only a little. Similar to the Jays with one another.

[todd_days_41]

What do you think these numbers prove?

TBH, not much.

I think all it proves: neither is a particularly good passer or cutter. Not news.

[moiso]

I was thinking about Jaylen & Tatum relative to Bird, Parish and McHale recently. This thread has got me thinking about it a 2nd time.

The first time I was thinking about how the Jays were more like Parish & McHale in 1989 when Bird was injured. That Bird was the player that brought the team together and made everything work together. The player who made others around him better. Parish and McHale were the supporting stars who performed well individually without Bird around but struggled to make the team come together and others around them better.

This thread got me thinking about that again in terms of player interactions. McHale and Parish did not interact much together on offense. It was usually Bird who did the playmaking. When Parish or McHale got the ball down the low they were usually looking to go one-on-one and put a shot up rather than looking to hit cutters or draw a double team and pass out for an open shot. They performed individually on offense. When they did it was usually a sideways pass from the top of the key or the elbow but it was a self-generated scoring move whenever they caught the ball in an area where they liked to operate.

They occupied defenders and made it more difficult to send help but they didn't create much for each other with their passing. A little but only a little. Similar to the Jays with one another.

So all we need is a Larry Bird   Interesting comparison and sounds about right.

[todd_days_41]

Here's a discouraging Tatum and Brown partnership stat:

56-57 since the beginning of last season.