Build your contender around the Jays

[Who]

I am really souring on Jaylen as a SG.

His ball-handling and passing are well below average. It puts the entire team at a deficit in terms of secondary handles & playmaking. It forces one of the forwards to make up the difference. That was fine when we had Gordon Hayward here to do the job but since he has been gone it has been a major problem.

I look at so many of these teams with ideas of a new PF next to the Jays on the wing and there is such a lack of secondary playmaking on these teams. Sometimes shooting too.

It puts all the pressure on the PG to do everything on offense while having the SG-SF-PF do all the scoring. I don't like it.

Jaylen needs to switch to his natural position at SF and Tatum thus at PF in order to for this team to have offensive integrity. There is too large a ball-handling, passing (and often shooting) deficit in almost all configurations otherwise.

[Csfan1984]

Both Jays like to drive or post so give them 3&D players. The perfect two guys that could be available in offseason would Brogdon and Turner. Use Al, TL, Langford and Picks. You also have the TPE if they want to dump TJ for PP to save $.

2022 C's
Brogdon/TJ/Yam
Smart/Josh
Brown/Nesmith
Tatum/GW
Turner/(MLE)

[Roy H.]

Its like the bucks getting Jrue Holiday and Bobby Portis and the like. Those are really solid role players who perform well around Middleton and Giannis.

The Celtics, though, basically have two Middletons. No Giannis.

Big difference.

Not two Middletons.  Maybe a Middleton and a Paul George? 

But yeah…. Definitely not a Giannis.

[KG Living Legend]

I am really souring on Jaylen as a SG.

His ball-handling and passing are well below average. It puts the entire team at a deficit in terms of secondary handles & playmaking. It forces one of the forwards to make up the difference. That was fine when we had Gordon Hayward here to do the job but since he has been gone it has been a major problem.

I look at so many of these teams with ideas of a new PF next to the Jays on the wing and there is such a lack of secondary playmaking on these teams. Sometimes shooting too.

It puts all the pressure on the PG to do everything on offense while having the SG-SF-PF do all the scoring. I don't like it.

Jaylen needs to switch to his natural position at SF and Tatum thus at PF in order to for this team to have offensive integrity. There is too large a ball-handling, passing (and often shooting) deficit in almost all configurations otherwise.

 Well said Who.

[LilRip]

Its like the bucks getting Jrue Holiday and Bobby Portis and the like. Those are really solid role players who perform well around Middleton and Giannis.

The Celtics, though, basically have two Middletons. No Giannis.

Big difference.

Not two Middletons.  Maybe a Middleton and a Paul George? 

But yeah…. Definitely not a Giannis.

So is it not possible to have a contender where the Jays are our 2 best players?

[LilRip]

I am really souring on Jaylen as a SG.

His ball-handling and passing are well below average. It puts the entire team at a deficit in terms of secondary handles & playmaking. It forces one of the forwards to make up the difference. That was fine when we had Gordon Hayward here to do the job but since he has been gone it has been a major problem.

I look at so many of these teams with ideas of a new PF next to the Jays on the wing and there is such a lack of secondary playmaking on these teams. Sometimes shooting too.

It puts all the pressure on the PG to do everything on offense while having the SG-SF-PF do all the scoring. I don't like it.

Jaylen needs to switch to his natural position at SF and Tatum thus at PF in order to for this team to have offensive integrity. There is too large a ball-handling, passing (and often shooting) deficit in almost all configurations otherwise.

I also don’t like JB being a playmaker. He’s a talented scorer and I think he should focus on finishing plays instead of being asked to part-time create for others.

In the same vein, I also don’t like that Tatum is our best playmaker on the team. We need a real PG imo so we can relegate Tatum as our secondary playmaker.

[Roy H.]

Its like the bucks getting Jrue Holiday and Bobby Portis and the like. Those are really solid role players who perform well around Middleton and Giannis.

The Celtics, though, basically have two Middletons. No Giannis.

Big difference.

Not two Middletons.  Maybe a Middleton and a Paul George? 

But yeah…. Definitely not a Giannis.

So is it not possible to have a contender where the Jays are our 2 best players?

It is, but it’s going to be really hard.

For instance, a healthy Kemba, Hayward, and the Jays would have been at least a quasi contender.  But, our luck with health has sucked.

I think we need the Jays and probably four above-average players.  In theory, Williams and Smart can be two of those four, particularly if Marcus is a 6th man.

Ideally, we’d need a top-15 PG and another top-15 starter.

But, to look at how hard it is, let’s give us two good starters, without losing any of our core:

Timelord
John Williams
Tatum
Brown / Smart
Brogdon

We can’t ask for much more than that.  In fact, it’s probably unrealistic.  But, is that team a hands down contender?  Probably not.

[Moranis]

I am really souring on Jaylen as a SG.

His ball-handling and passing are well below average. It puts the entire team at a deficit in terms of secondary handles & playmaking. It forces one of the forwards to make up the difference. That was fine when we had Gordon Hayward here to do the job but since he has been gone it has been a major problem.

I look at so many of these teams with ideas of a new PF next to the Jays on the wing and there is such a lack of secondary playmaking on these teams. Sometimes shooting too.

It puts all the pressure on the PG to do everything on offense while having the SG-SF-PF do all the scoring. I don't like it.

Jaylen needs to switch to his natural position at SF and Tatum thus at PF in order to for this team to have offensive integrity. There is too large a ball-handling, passing (and often shooting) deficit in almost all configurations otherwise.

The thing is, Tatum is better at SF, so you put your best player in a worse position because it is better for your 2nd best player.  That doesn't make any sense.  Tatum is a SF, which means Brown has to play SG.  While I don't like the RW/Al starting unit, I get why Udoka is doing it, because that puts Tatum at SF where he is at his best. 

I know people get tired of me saying that the team performs better without Brown and has for years, but it is true and a big reason why is Tatum.  Tatum is just better without Brown.  He shoots better and the whole offense functions better.  He plays his more natural SF position and doesn't share the spots on the floor with someone he feels needs his touches.  Brown is an all star level player, but he just doesn't fit with Tatum, and Tatum is a significantly more important player to the success of Boston.  Brown doesn't maximize Tatum, and that should be the whole goal of the C's i.e. to maximize Tatum. 

It is for that reason, that it would be very difficult to build a contender around the J's with the other parameters in place as described herein without just getting lucky with some rookies or 2nd year players (like if Cade, Green, and Mobley all reached full potential then sure Boston could win with that lineup, but I think that sort of defeats the purpose as well).  The way to do it is would be a defensive center with range and passing (a prime Horford), a floor spacing PF that can rebound (like a prime Love), and a floor general at PG (someone like Paul).  That is how you would do it, but I don't see how that happens nor that it is really the best idea. 

Boston would be better off trading Brown for a better fitting piece. 

[PhoSita]

Its like the bucks getting Jrue Holiday and Bobby Portis and the like. Those are really solid role players who perform well around Middleton and Giannis.

The Celtics, though, basically have two Middletons. No Giannis.

Big difference.

Not two Middletons.  Maybe a Middleton and a Paul George? 

But yeah…. Definitely not a Giannis.

Historically, Jayson has been a cut above Middleton.  But this year with his shooting coming and going, it's not so obvious.

I think we need the Jays and probably four above-average players.  In theory, Williams and Smart can be two of those four, particularly if Marcus is a 6th man.

I think you probably need to have a lead guard / ballhandler and a pick and roll partner that are both well above average.  Those guys form the backbone of the offense.   Similar to the Chris Paul / Ayton pairing, or something like Lowry / Adebayo (when healthy).  Something to give the team structure and consistency on offense that the Jays simply can't provide.

Then you have Jayson & Jaylen as almost luxury pieces. They raise the ceiling by dint of their capacity for going on scoring runs and hitting shots that other guys can't hit.

That formula plus a very good and reasonably deep bench would make a dark horse contender, I think.  But how to build a team like that without spending $200 million on luxury tax? I don't know.  Probably go back in time and make 4-5 years of perfect draft picks.


I don't think you can plausibly build a contender around Jaylen & Jayson if you're designing the team to actually revolve around them. They don't currently have the skillsets to make that work.  What we have seen, though, is that when the team has had a very strong foundation in place apart from the Jays, which allows the Jays to just be perimeter scorers, that can work quite well.  So, Jayson & Jaylen could be the 1st and 2nd leading scorers on a very good team ... but they can't be the focal points of the offense, nor can they carry the team on defense.

[todd_days_41]

As previously stated, the Cs should offer a big package for Tyrese Haliburton with everything other than JT, JB, and RWIII. The Kings have 3 PGs, and I doubt they can get good value for Fox.

Smart, Nesmith, Grant Williams, 2022 1st (Top 5 protected), 2024 1st (Top 5 protected) for Haliburton, Bagley and Harkless works.

[droopdog7]

If the jays are the two best players, I don’t think you can build a contender.

[td450]

I am really souring on Jaylen as a SG.

His ball-handling and passing are well below average. It puts the entire team at a deficit in terms of secondary handles & playmaking. It forces one of the forwards to make up the difference. That was fine when we had Gordon Hayward here to do the job but since he has been gone it has been a major problem.

I look at so many of these teams with ideas of a new PF next to the Jays on the wing and there is such a lack of secondary playmaking on these teams. Sometimes shooting too.

It puts all the pressure on the PG to do everything on offense while having the SG-SF-PF do all the scoring. I don't like it.

Jaylen needs to switch to his natural position at SF and Tatum thus at PF in order to for this team to have offensive integrity. There is too large a ball-handling, passing (and often shooting) deficit in almost all configurations otherwise.

The thing is, Tatum is better at SF, so you put your best player in a worse position because it is better for your 2nd best player.  That doesn't make any sense.  Tatum is a SF, which means Brown has to play SG.  While I don't like the RW/Al starting unit, I get why Udoka is doing it, because that puts Tatum at SF where he is at his best. 

I know people get tired of me saying that the team performs better without Brown and has for years, but it is true and a big reason why is Tatum.  Tatum is just better without Brown.  He shoots better and the whole offense functions better.  He plays his more natural SF position and doesn't share the spots on the floor with someone he feels needs his touches.  Brown is an all star level player, but he just doesn't fit with Tatum, and Tatum is a significantly more important player to the success of Boston.  Brown doesn't maximize Tatum, and that should be the whole goal of the C's i.e. to maximize Tatum. 

It is for that reason, that it would be very difficult to build a contender around the J's with the other parameters in place as described herein without just getting lucky with some rookies or 2nd year players (like if Cade, Green, and Mobley all reached full potential then sure Boston could win with that lineup, but I think that sort of defeats the purpose as well).  The way to do it is would be a defensive center with range and passing (a prime Horford), a floor spacing PF that can rebound (like a prime Love), and a floor general at PG (someone like Paul).  That is how you would do it, but I don't see how that happens nor that it is really the best idea. 

Boston would be better off trading Brown for a better fitting piece.

I would point to Chicago, who has two high scoring wings like we do, and who unlocked a better team by getting a point guard who promoted transition pace and ball movement. Lonzo is not a star. Just a player who added what they needed.

I also don't buy the idea that the team needs to wrap itself around what's best for Tatum. He's just not a championship level playmaker. We don't need more of that, we need less. We don't win a title until he learns to do more off the ball. Tatum dribbling with 4 guys standing around isn't going to cut it.

Brown doesn't dominate the ball. He scores opportunistically. He defers to Tatum too much, if anything. If that style inhibits Tatum, well maybe he needs to figure that out, because Tatum will need to play with some talent to win anything.

[Vermont Green]

It is, but it’s going to be really hard.

For instance, a healthy Kemba, Hayward, and the Jays would have been at least a quasi contender.  But, our luck with health has sucked.

I think we need the Jays and probably four above-average players.  In theory, Williams and Smart can be two of those four, particularly if Marcus is a 6th man.

Ideally, we’d need a top-15 PG and another top-15 starter.

But, to look at how hard it is, let’s give us two good starters, without losing any of our core:

Timelord
John Williams
Tatum
Brown / Smart
Brogdon

We can’t ask for much more than that.  In fact, it’s probably unrealistic.  But, is that team a hands down contender?  Probably not.

Did you mean John Collins?

[Vermont Green]

I would point to Chicago, who has two high scoring wings like we do, and who unlocked a better team by getting a point guard who promoted transition pace and ball movement. Lonzo is not a star. Just a player who added what they needed.

I also don't buy the idea that the team needs to wrap itself around what's best for Tatum. He's just not a championship level playmaker. We don't need more of that, we need less. We don't win a title until he learns to do more off the ball. Tatum dribbling with 4 guys standing around isn't going to cut it.

Brown doesn't dominate the ball. He scores opportunistically. He defers to Tatum too much, if anything. If that style inhibits Tatum, well maybe he needs to figure that out, because Tatum will need to play with some talent to win anything.

They also got Vucevic, a skilled big.  Vucevic is 15-16 pts/10-11 rebs.  Ball is 13/5/5.  Which is the bigger impact?  Both were nice complimentary players for the two wings but I think the Celtics (with Smart and Schroder) need Vucevic more than they need Ball.

[Moranis]

I would point to Chicago, who has two high scoring wings like we do, and who unlocked a better team by getting a point guard who promoted transition pace and ball movement. Lonzo is not a star. Just a player who added what they needed.

I also don't buy the idea that the team needs to wrap itself around what's best for Tatum. He's just not a championship level playmaker. We don't need more of that, we need less. We don't win a title until he learns to do more off the ball. Tatum dribbling with 4 guys standing around isn't going to cut it.

Brown doesn't dominate the ball. He scores opportunistically. He defers to Tatum too much, if anything. If that style inhibits Tatum, well maybe he needs to figure that out, because Tatum will need to play with some talent to win anything.

They also got Vucevic, a skilled big.  Vucevic is 15-16 pts/10-11 rebs.  Ball is 13/5/5.  Which is the bigger impact?  Both were nice complimentary players for the two wings but I think the Celtics (with Smart and Schroder) need Vucevic more than they need Ball.

Chicago is also more likely to lose in the 1st round than make the conference finals. I'm not sure they are the model to follow.