Observations after 2 games

[LilRip]

I too am not impressed with Udoka but I think he will get better in time.   It is one things to be an assistant and another to be calling the shots.

Some of his rotations are trash.    He took forgot to get Rob on  Randle the first game.   The small ball last night was an absolute disaster.

I also realize he is a new head coach and he is still learning the guys and he will get better.

We are also a small team, and need size.

Guards (G): Smart, Schröder, Pritchard, Langford
Wings (W): Tatum, Brown, Richardson, Nesmith
Swings (S): Horford, G.Williams, Hernangomez
Bigs (B): R.Williams, Kanter, Parker, Fernando

I don't think we're small at all. Perfectly fine at all positions.
The problem is the rotation and the balance in both quality and qualities (if you know what I mean).

The inbalance is easy to see when you distribute minutes in a common system with: 1/2 G, 1/2 W, 1 S, 1 B.
Let's say G(72), W(72), S(48), B(48). Example for a distribution per player:

Guards (G): Smart (28), Schröder (28), Pritchard (16), Langford (DNP)
Wings (W): Tatum (32), Brown (32), Richardson (8 ), Nesmith (DNP)
Swings (S): Horford (28), G.Williams (20), Hernangomez (DNP)
Bigs (B): R.Williams (28), Kanter (20), Parker (DNP), Fernando (DNP)

Unfortunately only the bolded names are getting minutes. We seem small because only the smaller players are on the floor

[Hoopvortex]

As good as TL has looked, I think he needs to go back to the bench for balance purposes.

I’m not sure what this would mean in practice. Since they play together and also separately for extended stints, what would really be different?

As for splitting TL and Al, you do it to avoid short stretches like having to play Grant at the 5. It’s either they play longer minutes so one of them is on the floor at all times, one comes off the bench so we don’t need to play either heavy minutes, or we got some real size (or play Kanter lol).

Grant Williams, to his credit, has looked good this year. But the team is putting Grant in a bad spot by having him play 5, even for short stretches. Especially against teams with size (like the Knicks, Raps, and eventually, when we face the Bucks, Sixers, and Nets). The small ball might work against smaller teams like the Heat though (unless I’m forgetting someone on their roster? It’s just Bam/Dedmon right?).

My point is that this is what is happening already - that starting quarters with Al and TL together is not stopping the Celtics from playing them separately as well. One or both of them (so far) are playing almost all of the minutes in the game. You were saying that they shouldn't start together so that they can play separately - even though you like what happens with them playing together.

Grant Williams at the 5 is a whole interesting debate here, but he does have a good track record; the bubble year he played a lot of minutes in crunchtime as the '5' (not just the end of the first, as he did against Toronto), and obviously that didn't keep them out of the ECF.

[Hoopvortex]

I too am not impressed with Udoka but I think he will get better in time.   It is one things to be an assistant and another to be calling the shots.

Some of his rotations are trash.    He took forgot to get Rob on  Randle the first game.   The small ball last night was an absolute disaster.

I also realize he is a new head coach and he is still learning the guys and he will get better.

We are also a small team, and need size.

Guards (G): Smart, Schröder, Pritchard, Langford
Wings (W): Tatum, Brown, Richardson, Nesmith
Swings (S): Horford, G.Williams, Hernangomez
Bigs (B): R.Williams, Kanter, Parker, Fernando

I don't think we're small at all. Perfectly fine at all positions.
The problem is the rotation and the balance in both quality and qualities (if you know what I mean).

The inbalance is easy to see when you distribute minutes in a common system with: 1/2 G, 1/2 W, 1 S, 1 B.
Let's say G(72), W(72), S(48), B(48). Example for a distribution per player:

Guards (G): Smart (28), Schröder (28), Pritchard (16), Langford (DNP)
Wings (W): Tatum (32), Brown (32), Richardson (8 ), Nesmith (DNP)
Swings (S): Horford (28), G.Williams (20), Hernangomez (DNP)
Bigs (B): R.Williams (28), Kanter (20), Parker (DNP), Fernando (DNP)

Unfortunately only the bolded names are getting minutes. We seem small because only the smaller players are on the floor

So your solution is to play Kanter, Fernando, Parker, and Hernangomez more? Frankly, I'm not feeling it.

[Hoopvortex]

My takeaway is that people are slitting wrists after one bad game. Celtics fandom truly is a roller coaster. If we thrash Houston all will be well with the world again...at least till the next loss.

Let's give them a few games under their belt before we judge what we see as a trend or an aberration.

'Slitting wrists' lol. Yes, the melodrama is deep around here.

Some people say the problem is the two-big lineups, some say the smallball. Some say the lack of ball movement is the issue, some that all the ball movement is leading to turnovers.

Calls to trade Jayson Tatum, fire Udoka, bench this or that player, tear the whole thing down and tank...

[PAOBoston]

It’s been two games but the over the top switching has not been great. Not a fan. Also, secondary scoring is a problem. If Tatum or JB are off, this team is toast offensively.

[Mahk E Mahk]

My takeaway is that people are slitting wrists after one bad game. Celtics fandom truly is a roller coaster. If we thrash Houston all will be well with the world again...at least till the next loss.

Let's give them a few games under their belt before we judge what we see as a trend or an aberration.

you make a very valid point and those of us that are already concerned, me included, would probably be best served by allowing more of the season to play out prior to commencing “wrist-slitting” activities.

on behalf of the wrist-slitting contingent, i will caveat by reminding everyone that what we’ve witnessed in the first two games is eerily similar to what we witnessed last season, and the one prior. add to the mix a rookie head coach and a rookie gm, and the concern can be justified as more than a two-game overreaction.

here’s to hoping that you’re correct and i’m overreacting, and the C’s turn it around quickly and stymie the bloodletting. :cheers:

[footey]

Rob Williams has to do amuch better job on the boards. 6 rebounds vs Raptors disappointing. Achiuwa had 15, Barnes 13.

[liam]

I too am not impressed with Udoka but I think he will get better in time.   It is one things to be an assistant and another to be calling the shots.

Some of his rotations are trash.    He took forgot to get Rob on  Randle the first game.   The small ball last night was an absolute disaster.

I also realize he is a new head coach and he is still learning the guys and he will get better.

We are also a small team, and need size.

Guards (G): Smart, Schröder, Pritchard, Langford
Wings (W): Tatum, Brown, Richardson, Nesmith
Swings (S): Horford, G.Williams, Hernangomez
Bigs (B): R.Williams, Kanter, Parker, Fernando

I don't think we're small at all. Perfectly fine at all positions.
The problem is the rotation and the balance in both quality and qualities (if you know what I mean).

The inbalance is easy to see when you distribute minutes in a common system with: 1/2 G, 1/2 W, 1 S, 1 B.
Let's say G(72), W(72), S(48), B(48). Example for a distribution per player:

Guards (G): Smart (28), Schröder (28), Pritchard (16), Langford (DNP)
Wings (W): Tatum (32), Brown (32), Richardson (8 ), Nesmith (DNP)
Swings (S): Horford (28), G.Williams (20), Hernangomez (DNP)
Bigs (B): R.Williams (28), Kanter (20), Parker (DNP), Fernando (DNP)

Unfortunately only the bolded names are getting minutes. We seem small because only the smaller players are on the floor

So your solution is to play Kanter, Fernando, Parker, and Hernangomez more? Frankly, I'm not feeling it.

If those guys can't play and you start the only bigs who can play I'd say you need more bigs. Trying the guys you do have should be the first option and then a trade for a backup center that fits what you want to do would be the next step.

[SHAQATTACK]

Everytime the C's swing the ball to the open man for a 3 pointer...it ends up being Marcus Smart WIDE Open....awful

There is a reason he is wide open.

Yup cover the guys that can shoot and leave Marcus Wide open……LOL …..it’s called the other teams game plan

Trade him or bench him to Second String …….oh ….that’s right Schroeder can ‘t shoot a lick  either

Or two starting guards are bricklayers …that’s a problem

[RodyTur10]

I too am not impressed with Udoka but I think he will get better in time.   It is one things to be an assistant and another to be calling the shots.

Some of his rotations are trash.    He took forgot to get Rob on  Randle the first game.   The small ball last night was an absolute disaster.

I also realize he is a new head coach and he is still learning the guys and he will get better.

We are also a small team, and need size.

Guards (G): Smart, Schröder, Pritchard, Langford
Wings (W): Tatum, Brown, Richardson, Nesmith
Swings (S): Horford, G.Williams, Hernangomez
Bigs (B): R.Williams, Kanter, Parker, Fernando

I don't think we're small at all. Perfectly fine at all positions.
The problem is the rotation and the balance in both quality and qualities (if you know what I mean).

The inbalance is easy to see when you distribute minutes in a common system with: 1/2 G, 1/2 W, 1 S, 1 B.
Let's say G(72), W(72), S(48), B(48). Example for a distribution per player:

Guards (G): Smart (28), Schröder (28), Pritchard (16), Langford (DNP)
Wings (W): Tatum (32), Brown (32), Richardson (8 ), Nesmith (DNP)
Swings (S): Horford (28), G.Williams (20), Hernangomez (DNP)
Bigs (B): R.Williams (28), Kanter (20), Parker (DNP), Fernando (DNP)

Unfortunately only the bolded names are getting minutes. We seem small because only the smaller players are on the floor

So your solution is to play Kanter, Fernando, Parker, and Hernangomez more? Frankly, I'm not feeling it.

If those guys can't play and you start the only bigs who can play I'd say you need more bigs. Trying the guys you do have should be the first option and then a trade for a backup center that fits what you want to do would be the next step.

I can't say I'm thrilled about our swings/bigs options, but in general I'm really against playing guys out of position. Make the best rotations. And if that happens to cause to play an inferior 'big' player over a 'small' player so be it.
For example Langford could fall out of the rotation, while Parker does get playing time.

Kanter has looked terrible defensively, but he is an proven commodity. He should be able to play significant minutes.
Last year when Nurkic was out he was a starter in Portland.

[Ogaju]

I too am not impressed with Udoka but I think he will get better in time.   It is one things to be an assistant and another to be calling the shots.

Some of his rotations are trash.    He took forgot to get Rob on  Randle the first game.   The small ball last night was an absolute disaster.

I also realize he is a new head coach and he is still learning the guys and he will get better.

We are also a small team, and need size.

Guards (G): Smart, Schröder, Pritchard, Langford
Wings (W): Tatum, Brown, Richardson, Nesmith
Swings (S): Horford, G.Williams, Hernangomez
Bigs (B): R.Williams, Kanter, Parker, Fernando

I don't think we're small at all. Perfectly fine at all positions.
The problem is the rotation and the balance in both quality and qualities (if you know what I mean).

The inbalance is easy to see when you distribute minutes in a common system with: 1/2 G, 1/2 W, 1 S, 1 B.
Let's say G(72), W(72), S(48), B(48). Example for a distribution per player:

Guards (G): Smart (28), Schröder (28), Pritchard (16), Langford (DNP)
Wings (W): Tatum (32), Brown (32), Richardson (8 ), Nesmith (DNP)
Swings (S): Horford (28), G.Williams (20), Hernangomez (DNP)
Bigs (B): R.Williams (28), Kanter (20), Parker (DNP), Fernando (DNP)

Unfortunately only the bolded names are getting minutes. We seem small because only the smaller players are on the floor

So your solution is to play Kanter, Fernando, Parker, and Hernangomez more? Frankly, I'm not feeling it.

If those guys can't play and you start the only bigs who can play I'd say you need more bigs. Trying the guys you do have should be the first option and then a trade for a backup center that fits what you want to do would be the next step.

Maybe Cs can call Dallas to see if Moses Brown is available or the Lakers for Dwight Howard after he got plunked by Anthony Davis.

[Jvalin]

Tatum is reverting to his ISO whereas we should be constantly running PnR plays for him. Starting both Timelord and Horford seems like a terrible idea. It makes us a worse team on both ends of the floor.

Generally speaking, I'm sceptical of defensive coordinators being promoted to head coaches. More often than not, they have no workable offensive plan other than ''move the ball'' and ''be aggressive''. I mean, it's easier to teach defense compared to offense. Not to mention, hiring a rookie head coach is always a massive risk. Obviously, we are just 2 games into the regular season. It's way too early. No need to overreact over 2 games.

[Celtics4ever]

Is it just me or they seem clueless about using Rob's vertically

[SHAQATTACK]

Schroder , while being nifty at times , Rondoesk for one play , then make three bad decisions or plays .  He needs to play it simple , straight , and protect the ball ….just be a real point guard.

Right now Pritchard is the only guy I trust to make the best pass ….the rest , miss the open man,  no lobs to Rob. Turn the ball over or take shots that will clang off the rim once more ., leading easy buckets at the other end .

Other than our centers and Pritchard, I don’t see much ball movement only dribbling.

[LilRip]

As good as TL has looked, I think he needs to go back to the bench for balance purposes.

I’m not sure what this would mean in practice. Since they play together and also separately for extended stints, what would really be different?

As for splitting TL and Al, you do it to avoid short stretches like having to play Grant at the 5. It’s either they play longer minutes so one of them is on the floor at all times, one comes off the bench so we don’t need to play either heavy minutes, or we got some real size (or play Kanter lol).

Grant Williams, to his credit, has looked good this year. But the team is putting Grant in a bad spot by having him play 5, even for short stretches. Especially against teams with size (like the Knicks, Raps, and eventually, when we face the Bucks, Sixers, and Nets). The small ball might work against smaller teams like the Heat though (unless I’m forgetting someone on their roster? It’s just Bam/Dedmon right?).

My point is that this is what is happening already - that starting quarters with Al and TL together is not stopping the Celtics from playing them separately as well. One or both of them (so far) are playing almost all of the minutes in the game. You were saying that they shouldn't start together so that they can play separately - even though you like what happens with them playing together.

Grant Williams at the 5 is a whole interesting debate here, but he does have a good track record; the bubble year he played a lot of minutes in crunchtime as the '5' (not just the end of the first, as he did against Toronto), and obviously that didn't keep them out of the ECF.

Please read what I wrote in bold again.

And having watched all 3 games, that game vs the Rox is the first time where it happened that neither Horford nor TL ever left the floor. Both Knicks and Raps games featured stretches where Grant was the 5 and thus, where my comment was coming from. In both games, both were bad decisions. Even for short stretches.

If Udoka wasn’t willing to play either Horford/TL heavier minutes, then the solution was to have someone come off the bench. Of course, as I wrote in bold, another alternative was to just play both more minutes so that someone can be on the floor at all times, which is what happened in the Rockets game.

And Grant has significantly changed his body over the summer. He was a better 5 last year and the year prior. Now that he’s slimmer, he’s quicker and is playing significantly better at the 4 this year (at least in the 3 games played).