Observations after 2 games

[Goldstar88]

I too am not impressed with Udoka but I think he will get better in time.   It is one things to be an assistant and another to be calling the shots.

Some of his rotations are trash.    He took forgot to get Rob on  Randle the first game.   The small ball last night was an absolute disaster.

I also realize he is a new head coach and he is still learning the guys and he will get better.

We are also a small team, and need size.

How is the team small? Smart: 6’3”, Brown 6’6”, Tatum 6’8”, Timelord 6’9”, Horford 6’9”

Point guards: Schroder: 6’1”, Pritchard 6’1”

shooting guards: Richardson 6’5” Langford: 6’4”, Nesmith 6’5”

Power Forwards: Juan 6’9”, Parker 6’8”

Center: Kanter: 6’10”

Grant is very undersized at 6’5” for a PF/C, but none of the other players are small for their position. Udoka choses to play small ball, but the C’s are not a small team.

[PhoSita]

I don't think Schroder should be in the rotation

I'm disappointed that Ime failed to challenge the very bad blocking call on Jaylen's And1 against the Knicks late in the 4th.  Cost the Celts that game.


The Celts cannot be a poor shooting team and also pass the ball a lot.  There seems to be a conflict between the roster makeup and the way Ime wants the offense to run.  If you have poor shooting and you try to zip the ball around it's going to cause turnovers.  Especially when you don't have an above average passing guard in the rotation.


Last thought -- really stood out against the Raptors that the Celts are going to struggle to play small due to their lack of size.  A team like the Raptors can play "small" because they have a lot of size and length at the forward spot.  The Celts have a ton of guys in the 6'1'' - 6'6'' range, which is not ideal for playing a switch-everything small ball style.  Teams like the Raps with a bunch of rangey 6'8'' dudes are gonna walk all over them.

[Hoopvortex]

I too am not impressed with Udoka but I think he will get better in time.   It is one things to be an assistant and another to be calling the shots.

Some of his rotations are trash.    He took forgot to get Rob on  Randle the first game.   The small ball last night was an absolute disaster.

I also realize he is a new head coach and he is still learning the guys and he will get better.

We are also a small team, and need size.

How is the team small? Smart: 6’3”, Brown 6’6”, Tatum 6’8”, Timelord 6’9”, Horford 6’9”

Point guards: Schroder: 6’1”, Pritchard 6’1”

shooting guards: Richardson 6’5” Langford: 6’4”, Nesmith 6’5”

Power Forwards: Juan 6’9”, Parker 6’8”

Center: Kanter: 6’10”

Grant is very undersized at 6’5” for a PF/C, but none of the other players are small for their position. Udoka choses to play small ball, but the C’s are not a small team.

In fact, you’ve even understated the heights of several Celtics. Smart is listed at 6’4”, Romeo at 6’5”, and Grant at 6’6”. Grant, btw, is 236 lbs with decent lower body strength.

I cannot tell exactly what you mean by “small ball”. The two-centers lineups were most common in the Toronto game, and the Grant-at-center lineups were only for 3:01 minutes total (end of the first quarter).

[86MaxwellSmart]

Everytime the C's swing the ball to the open man for a 3 pointer...it ends up being Marcus Smart WIDE Open....awful

[Ogaju]

Everytime the C's swing the ball to the open man for a 3 pointer...it ends up being Marcus Smart WIDE Open....awful

There is a reason he is wide open.

[Alleyoopster]

Other team's defense

Last night Toronto often knew exactly what Jason Tatum and most of the Celtic players were about to do offensively inside and out.

They relentlessly attacked anyone with the ball with a vengeance. Often to perfection (or nearly so.) They anticipated where the ball was going to be over and over again. Once someone started their drive or had the ball in their hands (in any capacity) they'd be at least one hand swiping or grabbing the ball PRECISELY when and where it was exposed - at the same time muscling up against the ball handler/holder.

My guess is they were a couple reasons they may have been successful doing this. One, they have the size and quickness to do it. Secondly, they may have watched numerous film clips of each player's tendencies and were trained exactly as to when and where to attack (like it was automatic - no thinking). Thirdly (which is tied to the second possible reason) is their defensive coaching may be extraordinarily superb and they've trained their players to be hyper-aware as to how to defend against any player or team at ALL times.

As for the Celtics defenders they didn't swarm on the ball holders like Toronto did. They appeared haphazard and not nearly as cohesive. Also, the Celtics couldn't match up with Toronto in three areas, height, strength and quickness.

This lack of physicality against the Knick's Julius Randle in the first game was blatantly obvious.

Toronto's inside players owned their offensive glass - easily pushing the Celtics out of the way or simply out-reached them for the ball over and over again. It was painful watching three or four Toronto players going for the ball near the rim while the Celtics players often looked totally helpless.

I am not certain what the Celtics need to do on offense to make things better, but one thing they need to recognize is that defense in the NBA has improved and they are going to have to adjust to this new reality.

Passing will have to be more purposeful. Possibly incorporating better screens, multiple options off every move they make, coordination with not just one player but multiple players will have to be part of their new passing schemes.

Judging from what I saw last night Toronto attacked quickly. Thus, the offense has to be thinking two or three passes ahead of time and not holding the ball waiting for things to happen. 

I'd like to see better screens and crisp passes for shots from 15 feet out (not always the 3 point line) for Tatum, Brown, Romeo, Nesmith and Parker.

One other note: I could see the frustration Tatum faced moving the ball to the middle. Teams are getting wise to his movements. He needs to explore more options instead of just driving to the hoop nd popping out for a shot. (Although, to his credit, his jumper was working.) Maybe work at setting up other players more?  Instead of looking to score himself. 

As for rebounding, they are almost always going to lose that battle this year. Thus, their defense has to be more coordinated and aggressive - they are going to have to win the ground war and work as a cohesive unit on every play.

They mentioned Smart had some knee swelling from the previous game. He should not have been playing. This seems to be a repeat of past Celtics mistakes handling injured players. Trainers need to realize that Smart will say he's okay to play even he broke his arm. 

[86MaxwellSmart]

Everytime the C's swing the ball to the open man for a 3 pointer...it ends up being Marcus Smart WIDE Open....awful

There is a reason he is wide open.

Yup, sit his butt on the bench, cause he's killing us.

[LilRip]

Unlike many on here, I don’t mind the Horford-Timelord pairing. Horford has shown he can play the 4. It’s not like we’re getting dusted with him at the 4 spot. The problem is that backup big spot.

For all the offseason bellyaching how we don’t have a backup 4, I think Grant has looked serviceable in his minutes. It’s that backup 5 which is horrendous. Kanter showed in the preseason that he can’t play defense even against summer leaguers. Bruno is probably even behind Kanter.

As good as TL has looked, I think he needs to go back to the bench for balance purposes.

I’d start: Smart/Pritchard/Brown/Tatum/Horford
Bench: Schroder/Richardson/Langford/Grant/Timelord

Why Pritchard? Because he adds shooting to the starting lineup and I hate the Schroder/Pritchard pairing off the bench.

[Hoopvortex]

Not sure about Horford and Rob Williams as a starting duo. I like them better as starter and replacement center with a few minutes alongside each other now and then.

I worry about the offense with both of them starting. Rob Williams is a non-shooter, above average passer but limited ball-handler. Horford (for a 2021 PF) is a reluctant shooter and therefore below average shooting threat, an average passer and a below average ball-handler (attacking the rim off the dribble).

I worry that this lack of offensive contribution from the PF and C position puts too much stress on the three perimeter slots. It requires Tatum and/or Jaylen to take big steps forward in terms of their playmaking for others. If they fail to do that and play more like they have done in the past, then the offense will become too stagnant and struggle to create open scoring attempts. This is further compounded by starting Smart at PG given his lack of dribble penetration.

I also worry about the lack of movement from a Horford & Rob Williams duo. Most teams nowadays have PFs that can move around the court. More active movement, more cutting. Horford is too stationary. He works well as the high post facilitator but not as a cutter or running off ball to get open shooting opportunities.

I believe we'll have to pick one to start and one to come off the bench in order to have a dynamic offense. With both starting, I fear the halfcourt offense will be too stagnant and easy to defend.

Horford and TIMELORD starting is fine if you have a back up center but we don't. You can't start your only two centers and go with a 6'6" backup. It's not going to work. You either have to get another center or have one of TIMELORD or Horford off the bench.

Or stagger them so one of them and Tatum are always on the floor with Grant.

Start Rob and Al. Substitute out Al, bring in Grant, substitute Tatum and Rob out, bring in Al and Nesmith. Substitute Grant out and bring Tatum back in. Bring Rob and send Nesmith out.

Simple enough.

This is not far from what happened in Q3 last night, except that it was: Al and Rob, then Rob out for Grant, then Rob in for Al with Grant, then Grant out with Rob with three wings and Schroeder for 1:37 to end the quarter.

[Hoopvortex]

Everytime the C's swing the ball to the open man for a 3 pointer...it ends up being Marcus Smart WIDE Open....awful

Hardly. Smart continues to be a low-usage player.

[Hoopvortex]

As good as TL has looked, I think he needs to go back to the bench for balance purposes.

I’m not sure what this would mean in practice. Since they play together and also separately for extended stints, what would really be different?

Why Pritchard? Because he adds shooting to the starting lineup and I hate the Schroder/Pritchard pairing off the bench.

For what it’s worth, they played four minutes together and were -2 against Toronto. I have argued that either of them pair better with Smart than with each other, but on offense, at least, they’ve got interesting possibilities. .

[Hoopvortex]

Not sure about Horford and Rob Williams as a starting duo. I like them better as starter and replacement center with a few minutes alongside each other now and then.

I worry about the offense with both of them starting. Rob Williams is a non-shooter, above average passer but limited ball-handler. Horford (for a 2021 PF) is a reluctant shooter and therefore below average shooting threat, an average passer and a below average ball-handler (attacking the rim off the dribble).

I worry that this lack of offensive contribution from the PF and C position puts too much stress on the three perimeter slots. It requires Tatum and/or Jaylen to take big steps forward in terms of their playmaking for others. If they fail to do that and play more like they have done in the past, then the offense will become too stagnant and struggle to create open scoring attempts. This is further compounded by starting Smart at PG given his lack of dribble penetration.

I also worry about the lack of movement from a Horford & Rob Williams duo. Most teams nowadays have PFs that can move around the court. More active movement, more cutting. Horford is too stationary. He works well as the high post facilitator but not as a cutter or running off ball to get open shooting opportunities.

I believe we'll have to pick one to start and one to come off the bench in order to have a dynamic offense. With both starting, I fear the halfcourt offense will be too stagnant and easy to defend.

Neither one can guard starting PF's, they both shouldn't be starting.  I think you have to start Horford along with Tatum, Brown, Smart, and Schroder.  I think that is the most cohesive and balanced starting lineup.

Makes perfect sense to me.

[LilRip]

As good as TL has looked, I think he needs to go back to the bench for balance purposes.

I’m not sure what this would mean in practice. Since they play together and also separately for extended stints, what would really be different?

Why Pritchard? Because he adds shooting to the starting lineup and I hate the Schroder/Pritchard pairing off the bench.

For what it’s worth, they played four minutes together and were -2 against Toronto. I have argued that either of them pair better with Smart than with each other, but on offense, at least, they’ve got interesting possibilities. .

I agree that either of them would pair better with Smart. We have an extremely small sample size but you start with a hypothesis from watching both players individually historically. And so far, the (short) eye test doesn’t reveal anything we don’t know. I don’t think Schroder/Pritchard is a good pairing. They’re both decent on offense, they’re both bad on defense, and neither elevates the other. I do think Schroder is a better floor general (so he can be the main floor general off the bench) and Pritchard is a better shooter (so he can be the release valve for guys like JB/JT)

As for splitting TL and Al, you do it to avoid short stretches like having to play Grant at the 5. It’s either they play longer minutes so one of them is on the floor at all times, one comes off the bench so we don’t need to play either heavy minutes, or we got some real size (or play Kanter lol).

Grant Williams, to his credit, has looked good this year. But the team is putting Grant in a bad spot by having him play 5, even for short stretches. Especially against teams with size (like the Knicks, Raps, and eventually, when we face the Bucks, Sixers, and Nets). The small ball might work against smaller teams like the Heat though (unless I’m forgetting someone on their roster? It’s just Bam/Dedmon right?).

[ozgod]

My takeaway is that people are slitting wrists after one bad game. Celtics fandom truly is a roller coaster. If we thrash Houston all will be well with the world again...at least till the next loss.

Let's give them a few games under their belt before we judge what we see as a trend or an aberration.

[RodyTur10]

I too am not impressed with Udoka but I think he will get better in time.   It is one things to be an assistant and another to be calling the shots.

Some of his rotations are trash.    He took forgot to get Rob on  Randle the first game.   The small ball last night was an absolute disaster.

I also realize he is a new head coach and he is still learning the guys and he will get better.

We are also a small team, and need size.

Guards (G): Smart, Schröder, Pritchard, Langford
Wings (W): Tatum, Brown, Richardson, Nesmith
Swings (S): Horford, G.Williams, Hernangomez
Bigs (B): R.Williams, Kanter, Parker, Fernando

I don't think we're small at all. Perfectly fine at all positions.
The problem is the rotation and the balance in both quality and qualities (if you know what I mean).

The inbalance is easy to see when you distribute minutes in a common system with: 1/2 G, 1/2 W, 1 S, 1 B.
Let's say G(72), W(72), S(48), B(48). Example for a distribution per player:

Guards (G): Smart (28), Schröder (28), Pritchard (16), Langford (DNP)
Wings (W): Tatum (32), Brown (32), Richardson (8 ), Nesmith (DNP)
Swings (S): Horford (28), G.Williams (20), Hernangomez (DNP)
Bigs (B): R.Williams (28), Kanter (20), Parker (DNP), Fernando (DNP)