Author Topic: NBA Season 2021-22  (Read 752662 times)

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Re: NBA Season 2021-22
« Reply #3345 on: April 12, 2022, 04:13:11 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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If Doc doesn’t get Philly though a couple rounds or to East finals ,  I look for him to loose his job.

I agree with this, if they lose in first round he is gone. I also wouldn't be surprised to see Harden jet to a different team if they lose in the first round. Pretty huge series for them, and they really could use Thybulle in Toronto and also will greatly miss Drummond for the ten minutes Embid has to sit. Jordan has been cooked for several years and it is unclear why he is still in the league.
Where is Harden going to go?  I can't think of a better pairing for him than Embiid and they seem to be getting along pretty well.  The Sixers really needed Harden to pick up his option.  Harden isn't worth his true Max but it would be hard for them to offer him anything less.  I expect Drummond would have been a negative in the playoffs but much less so than Jordan.  Milsap is toast too.  The Libertyballer crowd want Reed to be the backup but I'd be surprised if Doc goes with him.

I mean if the team flames out in the first round it would be pretty strong evidence that the pairing doesn't work (which was my caveat), in that case they may try and do a sign and trade of Harden to just about any team in the playoffs. A lot of the trades mentioned for Westbrook would be more likely for Harden. Is Philly really worse off with Brogdon and Hield and a first round pick to trade with Harris than paying Harden 50 million a year? I do think they will still beat Toronto despite how bad he has looked the last month. Given all that,  do people realize he shot 37% from the field and 27% from 3 in April? Making an even larger sample size he shot 39% for the month of March and 30% from 3. Worse, if you watch him he doesn't have his signature burst and is not nearly as effective on his drives. I said this about 6 weeks ago and got some push back, but you can't argue there is a chance a notoriously out of shape partier may have a steep decline as they approach 33. Not everyone is Lebron.

Re: NBA Season 2021-22
« Reply #3346 on: April 12, 2022, 04:43:28 PM »

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The question I have with Harden is, is he actually injured.  If that hammy is bothering him it would certainly explain the drop in shooting.  From Christmas to him first going out at the end of January, he was playing pretty darn good basketball i.e. 26.3 ppg, 10.9 apg, 8.3 rpg with a GmSc of 23.1.  The 26.4 points was on 18.4 shots so a solid efficiency. 

The 5 games in April he hasn't looked good, though the Sixers were 4-1 in those games and he has averaged 13.2 apg.  So perhaps he has been just trying to feed Embiid more and not getting his game going (shooting just 12.2 FG's per game). 

It will be interesting to see what happens in that Toronto series, especially with Thybulle missing the games in Toronto.
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Re: NBA Season 2021-22
« Reply #3347 on: April 12, 2022, 04:59:59 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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"7. They found one of the biggest steals of the 2020 draft

Most NBA teams didn't think Desmond Bane had a lot of upside after playing all four seasons in college, a rarity these days for draft prospects. The Grizzlies noted that Bane got significantly better each year at TCU and projected that development to continue. Bane, who played in summer league last year despite being a second-team All-Rookie selection, has emerged as a primary offensive option and a major reason Memphis went 20-5 when Morant wasn't available.""

Big miss.  Not as big as Giannis or Tony  :-XParker, and I'm sure many others.  But despite the miss, SO not worth reliving every week.  Bane obviously projects to having a very good career at this point and C's would be deeper if they had him.  Would also be less deep if they'd taken Markell Fultz and Kris Dunn.   

Back when the C's were struggling to maintain .500 the miss on Bane was painful. Now, no big deal at all -- this team is looking pretty darn good without him.

Yabuselle, AKA: Dancing Bear at 16, over Pascal Siakam. Worst part is the Celtics even invited him to Boston for a private workout and they opted to go with the Yabu.  :-X

If Durant had signed with the max cap space drafting Yabu over Siakam generated, no one would care about Yabu.

I don’t think Durant was ever coming to Boston. That has nothing to do with taking Yabu at 16, anyway.
Wasn't the deal that Yabu stayed overseas, thus giving us max space which we were aiming at Durant? I think we only took Yabu because he was a certain draft and stash.


I remember his awkward interview with I think Molly Mcgrath, with him saying that he is very willing to be stashed

It's crazy that for years we had all these 1st round picks that Ainge was unable to trade for future picks; but then the one year we trade ours (2021), OKC immediately and casually trades it for two future 1sts to HOU. That is just bad luck on Ainge's part.

And the time he actually did trade a pick (#30 for two future 2nds), the other team ends up selecting Bane, and it's the only thing we hear about in life anymore.

As I understand it, Yabu is actually doing well in Europe now. Showed up in the Olympics for sure

It's just karma, I guess, lol. can't fleece the nets and hoard even more firsts on top of that, AND hit on Isaiah Thomas, without some bad luck coming back our way.

I just hope the C’s stay away from drafting overseas players in the first round for the most part. When is the last time the C’s drafted a player from overseas that has worked out?
How many have they actually drafted in the 1st round though?  Think it is just Yabu and Zizic.  2nd rounders we have what Begarin, Mader, and Erden.  For the last pick of the draft Erden worked out well and Begarin and Mader haven't come over yet so who knows.  Zizic was an asset included in a trade so he was fine from a value standpoint.

 Not sure, but not one of them turned out to be even a useful bench player.
It is 2 players, 1 of which was value added in a trade.  So 1 bust, 1 useful asset.  That isn't terrible.  It isn't like Boston has drafted 10 European 1st rounders and not 1 has worked out.  It is 2 guys with mixed results. 

There were some other 2nd rounders going back further i.e. Ben Pepper (55th pick in 97), Andrei Fetisov (36th pick in 94), and Panagiotis Giannakis (205th pick in 82 - round 9) none of which came to the NBA and of course Dino Radja who was quite successful as 2nd round picks go (40th pick in 89).

Boston has taken exactly 2 foreign players in the 1st round (and 2 high schoolers - so just 4 non-college players in the 1st round in their entire history).  Not nearly a large enough sample to draw conclusions at all.

Again, none of the players (any round of the draft) in the last 20+ years were even a solid 8/9 guy off the bench for the C’s. I doubt the two recent picks will be either. Have to give a lot of credit to the Spurs taking: Ginobli, Parker, Scola, Udrih, Mahinmi, Splitter, Samanic(tbd)
« Last Edit: April 12, 2022, 05:09:36 PM by Goldstar88 »
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: NBA Season 2021-22
« Reply #3348 on: April 12, 2022, 05:28:52 PM »

Offline Celtics2021

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"7. They found one of the biggest steals of the 2020 draft

Most NBA teams didn't think Desmond Bane had a lot of upside after playing all four seasons in college, a rarity these days for draft prospects. The Grizzlies noted that Bane got significantly better each year at TCU and projected that development to continue. Bane, who played in summer league last year despite being a second-team All-Rookie selection, has emerged as a primary offensive option and a major reason Memphis went 20-5 when Morant wasn't available.""

Big miss.  Not as big as Giannis or Tony  :-XParker, and I'm sure many others.  But despite the miss, SO not worth reliving every week.  Bane obviously projects to having a very good career at this point and C's would be deeper if they had him.  Would also be less deep if they'd taken Markell Fultz and Kris Dunn.   

Back when the C's were struggling to maintain .500 the miss on Bane was painful. Now, no big deal at all -- this team is looking pretty darn good without him.

Yabuselle, AKA: Dancing Bear at 16, over Pascal Siakam. Worst part is the Celtics even invited him to Boston for a private workout and they opted to go with the Yabu.  :-X

If Durant had signed with the max cap space drafting Yabu over Siakam generated, no one would care about Yabu.

I don’t think Durant was ever coming to Boston. That has nothing to do with taking Yabu at 16, anyway.
Wasn't the deal that Yabu stayed overseas, thus giving us max space which we were aiming at Durant? I think we only took Yabu because he was a certain draft and stash.


I remember his awkward interview with I think Molly Mcgrath, with him saying that he is very willing to be stashed

It's crazy that for years we had all these 1st round picks that Ainge was unable to trade for future picks; but then the one year we trade ours (2021), OKC immediately and casually trades it for two future 1sts to HOU. That is just bad luck on Ainge's part.

And the time he actually did trade a pick (#30 for two future 2nds), the other team ends up selecting Bane, and it's the only thing we hear about in life anymore.

As I understand it, Yabu is actually doing well in Europe now. Showed up in the Olympics for sure

It's just karma, I guess, lol. can't fleece the nets and hoard even more firsts on top of that, AND hit on Isaiah Thomas, without some bad luck coming back our way.

I just hope the C’s stay away from drafting overseas players in the first round for the most part. When is the last time the C’s drafted a player from overseas that has worked out?
How many have they actually drafted in the 1st round though?  Think it is just Yabu and Zizic.  2nd rounders we have what Begarin, Mader, and Erden.  For the last pick of the draft Erden worked out well and Begarin and Mader haven't come over yet so who knows.  Zizic was an asset included in a trade so he was fine from a value standpoint.

 Not sure, but not one of them turned out to be even a useful bench player.
It is 2 players, 1 of which was value added in a trade.  So 1 bust, 1 useful asset.  That isn't terrible.  It isn't like Boston has drafted 10 European 1st rounders and not 1 has worked out.  It is 2 guys with mixed results. 

There were some other 2nd rounders going back further i.e. Ben Pepper (55th pick in 97), Andrei Fetisov (36th pick in 94), and Panagiotis Giannakis (205th pick in 82 - round 9) none of which came to the NBA and of course Dino Radja who was quite successful as 2nd round picks go (40th pick in 89).

Boston has taken exactly 2 foreign players in the 1st round (and 2 high schoolers - so just 4 non-college players in the 1st round in their entire history).  Not nearly a large enough sample to draw conclusions at all.

Again, none of the players (any round of the draft) in the last 20+ years were even a solid 8/9 guy off the bench for the C’s. I doubt the two recent picks will be either. Have to give a lot of credit to the Spurs taking: Ginobli, Parker, Scola, Udrih, Mahinmi, Splitter, Samanic(tbd)

There is very little relevance of draft success/failure from the 90s relative to today, for either domestic or international draftees.  The Celtics had two non-lottery misses.  That happens.  Instead of picking Yabusele at 16, they could have picked Wade Baldwin, an American player who went #17, and managed to play in fewer games that Yabu did for his career.  Or Henry Ellenson, who went #18, playing all of 9 more games, and somehow managing to block only 3 shots in 787 career minutes despite being a center.  Instead of picking Zizic at #23, they could have gone with the next American selected, Brice Johnson at #25, who managed 107 career minutes.

Those two were picked because they were foreign and the goal was to create double max cap room.  It almost worked.  But the lack of success had nothing to do with them being international, and everything to do with the fact that draft misses happen all the time.  And it's expected that this should happen.  If every first rounder became a rotation player or better for a decade, you wouldn't need to have a draft every season.  The draft isn't a crap shoot, but there is a lot of luck involved for every team.

And as people have pointed out, we're a title favorite with 7 of our top 10 players who were selected as 1st rounders by the C's.  The only contender with a similar level of home-grown talent dominating the rotation is Golden State.  So we didn't hit on every pick.  Oh well.

Re: NBA Season 2021-22
« Reply #3349 on: April 12, 2022, 05:35:59 PM »

Offline mef730

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"7. They found one of the biggest steals of the 2020 draft

Most NBA teams didn't think Desmond Bane had a lot of upside after playing all four seasons in college, a rarity these days for draft prospects. The Grizzlies noted that Bane got significantly better each year at TCU and projected that development to continue. Bane, who played in summer league last year despite being a second-team All-Rookie selection, has emerged as a primary offensive option and a major reason Memphis went 20-5 when Morant wasn't available.""

Big miss.  Not as big as Giannis or Tony  :-XParker, and I'm sure many others.  But despite the miss, SO not worth reliving every week.  Bane obviously projects to having a very good career at this point and C's would be deeper if they had him.  Would also be less deep if they'd taken Markell Fultz and Kris Dunn.   

Back when the C's were struggling to maintain .500 the miss on Bane was painful. Now, no big deal at all -- this team is looking pretty darn good without him.

Yabuselle, AKA: Dancing Bear at 16, over Pascal Siakam. Worst part is the Celtics even invited him to Boston for a private workout and they opted to go with the Yabu.  :-X

If Durant had signed with the max cap space drafting Yabu over Siakam generated, no one would care about Yabu.

I don’t think Durant was ever coming to Boston. That has nothing to do with taking Yabu at 16, anyway.
Wasn't the deal that Yabu stayed overseas, thus giving us max space which we were aiming at Durant? I think we only took Yabu because he was a certain draft and stash.


I remember his awkward interview with I think Molly Mcgrath, with him saying that he is very willing to be stashed

It's crazy that for years we had all these 1st round picks that Ainge was unable to trade for future picks; but then the one year we trade ours (2021), OKC immediately and casually trades it for two future 1sts to HOU. That is just bad luck on Ainge's part.

And the time he actually did trade a pick (#30 for two future 2nds), the other team ends up selecting Bane, and it's the only thing we hear about in life anymore.

As I understand it, Yabu is actually doing well in Europe now. Showed up in the Olympics for sure

It's just karma, I guess, lol. can't fleece the nets and hoard even more firsts on top of that, AND hit on Isaiah Thomas, without some bad luck coming back our way.

I just hope the C’s stay away from drafting overseas players in the first round for the most part. When is the last time the C’s drafted a player from overseas that has worked out?
How many have they actually drafted in the 1st round though?  Think it is just Yabu and Zizic.  2nd rounders we have what Begarin, Mader, and Erden.  For the last pick of the draft Erden worked out well and Begarin and Mader haven't come over yet so who knows.  Zizic was an asset included in a trade so he was fine from a value standpoint.

 Not sure, but not one of them turned out to be even a useful bench player.
It is 2 players, 1 of which was value added in a trade.  So 1 bust, 1 useful asset.  That isn't terrible.  It isn't like Boston has drafted 10 European 1st rounders and not 1 has worked out.  It is 2 guys with mixed results. 

There were some other 2nd rounders going back further i.e. Ben Pepper (55th pick in 97), Andrei Fetisov (36th pick in 94), and Panagiotis Giannakis (205th pick in 82 - round 9) none of which came to the NBA and of course Dino Radja who was quite successful as 2nd round picks go (40th pick in 89).

Boston has taken exactly 2 foreign players in the 1st round (and 2 high schoolers - so just 4 non-college players in the 1st round in their entire history).  Not nearly a large enough sample to draw conclusions at all.

Again, none of the players (any round of the draft) in the last 20+ years were even a solid 8/9 guy off the bench for the C’s. I doubt the two recent picks will be either. Have to give a lot of credit to the Spurs taking: Ginobli, Parker, Scola, Udrih, Mahinmi, Splitter, Samanic(tbd)

And as people have pointed out, we're a title favorite with 7 of our top 10 players who were selected as 1st rounders by the C's.  The only contender with a similar level of home-grown talent dominating the rotation is Golden State.  So we didn't hit on every pick.  Oh well.

Agreed, and TP. We had two lottery picks and, in both cases, we nailed them. Tatum is obvious, but for those who remember the Jaylen Brown draft, teams were climbing all over themselves to trade with the Cs at 3 so they could draft Kris Dunn. We held (although the rumor is that we would have traded it for the 76ers Lakers pick and Nerlens Noel. We later ended up with that pick anyway, as part of the Tatum deal. I'm guessing that Noel would be available if we wanted him.).

Recent later picks have been good ones. We gave the team a lot of crap over GWill and Pritchard, but they seem to be working out pretty well now.

Mike

Re: NBA Season 2021-22
« Reply #3350 on: April 12, 2022, 06:41:12 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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If Doc doesn’t get Philly though a couple rounds or to East finals ,  I look for him to loose his job.

I agree with this, if they lose in first round he is gone. I also wouldn't be surprised to see Harden jet to a different team if they lose in the first round. Pretty huge series for them, and they really could use Thybulle in Toronto and also will greatly miss Drummond for the ten minutes Embid has to sit. Jordan has been cooked for several years and it is unclear why he is still in the league.
Where is Harden going to go?  I can't think of a better pairing for him than Embiid and they seem to be getting along pretty well.  The Sixers really needed Harden to pick up his option.  Harden isn't worth his true Max but it would be hard for them to offer him anything less.  I expect Drummond would have been a negative in the playoffs but much less so than Jordan.  Milsap is toast too.  The Libertyballer crowd want Reed to be the backup but I'd be surprised if Doc goes with him.

I mean if the team flames out in the first round it would be pretty strong evidence that the pairing doesn't work (which was my caveat), in that case they may try and do a sign and trade of Harden to just about any team in the playoffs. A lot of the trades mentioned for Westbrook would be more likely for Harden. Is Philly really worse off with Brogdon and Hield and a first round pick to trade with Harris than paying Harden 50 million a year? I do think they will still beat Toronto despite how bad he has looked the last month. Given all that,  do people realize he shot 37% from the field and 27% from 3 in April? Making an even larger sample size he shot 39% for the month of March and 30% from 3. Worse, if you watch him he doesn't have his signature burst and is not nearly as effective on his drives. I said this about 6 weeks ago and got some push back, but you can't argue there is a chance a notoriously out of shape partier may have a steep decline as they approach 33. Not everyone is Lebron.
Harden is either going to opt in for his final year which would almost certainly mean an extension was in the works or he'll opt out to become a free agent.  In neither case, could I see him agreeing to a trade to Indiana.  And there is no way Indiana wants Harden on a 50m multiyear contract.  Westbrook would only be on their books for a year but I doubt that trade would happen either.  If the Sixers decide they don't want Harden, they'd be better off letting him walk and having some cap space than make a meh trade.  I don't think Brogdon and Hield move the needle at all for the Sixers except maybe backwards considering their contracts.     

I've said numerous times big midseason trades don't work.  Players, especially stars, aren't plug and play.  20 games is just not enough time to integrate them into a new team.  It is also the end of the season when teams are tanking.  So any kind of judgements should be taken with a lot of salt.  However I'd say the Harden-Embiid has gone about as well as can be expected and that is with Harden not shooting well.  You don't honestly think playing with Embiid is causing Harden not to shoot well.  I think Mo is right about the hammy still bothering him.  All that being said, how about this comparison?  In the 20 games (323 min), the Harden/Embiid/Maxey/Harris/Thybulle lineup has a +20.2 net rating.  That same lineup with Curry instead of Harden in 21 games (256 min) had a -10.6 net rating.  Imagine the difference if Harden was actually shooting well. 

Losing to Toronto wouldn't necessarily say anything about the Harden-Embiid pairing.  Toronto is a good team.  Not having a decent backup C for the playoffs could cost the Sixers yet again.  Thybulle not being vaxxed could cost the Sixers.  Doc being coach could cost the Sixers. 

Harden's health, fitness and work ethic as well as how well he ages are most definitely concerns.  Giving him a big multi-year contract is very likely to be ugly in the out years.  The trade looked a lot better when the initial reports indicated that Harden had picked up his option.  However the Sixers focus ought to be on Embiid and they have got to have someone like Harden to reduce his load on offense.  Before the allstar game, Embiid was only being assisted on 47% of his 2pt fgs.  For the games after the allstar break, it was 60% assisted.  Last season with Simmons, it was only 43% assisted.  That's a big positive difference. 

Re: NBA Season 2021-22
« Reply #3351 on: April 12, 2022, 07:03:56 PM »

Offline colincb

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Phoenix Suns' Monty Williams voted top coach by coaches' association for 2nd straight year.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/33724884/sources-phoenix-suns-monty-williams-voted-top-coach-coaches-association-2nd-straight-year

Can't argue with it really, but the media might vote someone else in for the NBA's COY and BOS and MEM have a reasonable claim too.

Re: NBA Season 2021-22
« Reply #3352 on: April 12, 2022, 07:07:48 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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Phoenix Suns' Monty Williams voted top coach by coaches' association for 2nd straight year.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/33724884/sources-phoenix-suns-monty-williams-voted-top-coach-coaches-association-2nd-straight-year

Can't argue with it really, but the media might vote someone else in for the NBA's COY and BOS and MEM have a reasonable claim too.

I think it should have gone to the Memphis coach.  Went from 38 wins to 56… played extremely well even when Morant was out.
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: NBA Season 2021-22
« Reply #3353 on: April 12, 2022, 07:11:54 PM »

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Cavs not looking bad at all.

Re: NBA Season 2021-22
« Reply #3354 on: April 12, 2022, 07:11:59 PM »

Offline Birdman

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Phoenix are suppose to be a top team this season, Memphis wasn’t..I vote for Memphis coach
C/PF-Horford, Baynes, Noel, Theis, Morris,
SF/SG- Tatum, Brown, Hayward, Smart, Semi, Clark
PG- Irving, Rozier, Larkin

Re: NBA Season 2021-22
« Reply #3355 on: April 12, 2022, 07:25:22 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Phoenix Suns' Monty Williams voted top coach by coaches' association for 2nd straight year.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/33724884/sources-phoenix-suns-monty-williams-voted-top-coach-coaches-association-2nd-straight-year

Can't argue with it really, but the media might vote someone else in for the NBA's COY and BOS and MEM have a reasonable claim too.

I think it should have gone to the Memphis coach.  Went from 38 wins to 56… played extremely well even when Morant was out.
Actually played much much better!
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: NBA Season 2021-22
« Reply #3356 on: April 12, 2022, 07:36:47 PM »

Online Donoghus

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Phoenix Suns' Monty Williams voted top coach by coaches' association for 2nd straight year.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/33724884/sources-phoenix-suns-monty-williams-voted-top-coach-coaches-association-2nd-straight-year

Can't argue with it really, but the media might vote someone else in for the NBA's COY and BOS and MEM have a reasonable claim too.

I think it should have gone to the Memphis coach.  Went from 38 wins to 56… played extremely well even when Morant was out.
Actually played much much better!

That team is going to be studied for years.


2010 CB Historical Draft - Best Overall Team

Re: NBA Season 2021-22
« Reply #3357 on: April 12, 2022, 07:45:21 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Phoenix Suns' Monty Williams voted top coach by coaches' association for 2nd straight year.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/33724884/sources-phoenix-suns-monty-williams-voted-top-coach-coaches-association-2nd-straight-year

Can't argue with it really, but the media might vote someone else in for the NBA's COY and BOS and MEM have a reasonable claim too.

I think it should have gone to the Memphis coach.  Went from 38 wins to 56… played extremely well even when Morant was out.
Actually played much much better!

That team is going to be studied for years.
I find them very curious. Them being better on D without Ja makes sense - he’s a very poor defender. But their offence improving without him? Weird! Also, Morant missed a substantial amount of time, so the sample size isn’t too small.
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: NBA Season 2021-22
« Reply #3358 on: April 12, 2022, 08:12:34 PM »

Kiorrik

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Cavs not looking bad at all.

Since I said that:

they missed all their shots
kyrie didn't miss at all

bah.

Hate that Kyrie's a bball god.

Re: NBA Season 2021-22
« Reply #3359 on: April 12, 2022, 08:20:56 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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Cavs not looking bad at all.

Since I said that:

they missed all their shots
kyrie didn't miss at all

bah.

Hate that Kyrie's a bball god.

Yeah, thanks a lot…
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.