Celtics Media Day 2021/Training Camp

[tenn_smoothie]

No doubt I'll be ripped to shreds for my suggestions here ...............
though Jaylen's tendency towards pseudo-intellectual, political posing wears a little thin sometimes.

Interesting theory, southern man.

Jaylen Brown speaks five languages, is the captain of the chess club, and likes to write poetry.

Sounds kind of smart to me.

I do like the implication that progressiveness and intellect are mutually exclusive. Very funny stuff

Gouk, I never suggested that at all.

I made a point that Brown is politically active, at least with public comments and participating in marches. I found his comments regarding total approval of Coach Udoka without having gone through the first practice drill as suspect and wondered how those comments would hit Brad Stevens.

Jaylen does strikes me as a guy who puts a lot of effort into appearing to be highly intellectual. I have no idea where his cognitive abilities would rate on some survey scale and I made no reference to there being a connection between level of intelligence and social activism. Most of the time he is commenting on topics other than the team's performance, it is about social and political opinions. Thus I referenced those subjects. From what I see on tv news, whether at an organized public rally, a Congressional debate or a loud protest in the streets, the intelligence of the participants appears to cover a wide range.

[tenn_smoothie]

Comments I have heard from Udoka have been encouraging, specifically talking about an emphasis on defense and ball movement.

Jaylen Brown has made statements about his desire to play for Coach Udoka and the importance he places on the Celtics' head coach being black. At his camp presser, Brown went on about how much respect he has for him, how bought in he is, how the coach has his full attention. That's all well and good, though maybe a bit much given that they had not rolled out their first practice ball at the time. I realize he has worked with Udoka as an assistant on international teams, so let's hope the relationship works out.

Listening to how strongly Brown's devotion to his new coach was made me wonder about his attitude towards Brad Stevens.......... Was he not so bought in, not so full of respect ? It came off to me as a bit disrespectful to his former coach. After all, Stevens was a big reason that Boston drafted Brown so highly and saw talent in the guy that the rest of the league apparently did not. Then Stevens coached him into an all-star level player. Does Brown have all this respect because Udoka is a strong coach or because he is black ?

No doubt I'll be ripped to shreds for my suggestions here ...............
though Jaylen's tendency towards pseudo-intellectual, political posing wears a little thin sometimes.

It is quite possible and extremely likely for Jaylen to feel it important for more black coaches to be hired, to be excited to work with the man, Ime Udoka, because he has had a great experience with him already and for Jaylen to have a lot of love and respect for Brad Stevens.

It is possible to have an opinion on racial hiring practices and still treat, interact and work with people based on them being people, not white people or black people.

And as for the pseudo-intellectual comment, you must never have heard him speak on a number of various topics or read some of the speeches he has given at prestigious universities and seminars. The kid is legit intelligent. There is no pseudo anything.


Also, has anyone ever used the term pseudo-intellectual to describe a white person? Just wondering.

That last sentence is one ignorant comment.

[nickagneta]

Comments I have heard from Udoka have been encouraging, specifically talking about an emphasis on defense and ball movement.

Jaylen Brown has made statements about his desire to play for Coach Udoka and the importance he places on the Celtics' head coach being black. At his camp presser, Brown went on about how much respect he has for him, how bought in he is, how the coach has his full attention. That's all well and good, though maybe a bit much given that they had not rolled out their first practice ball at the time. I realize he has worked with Udoka as an assistant on international teams, so let's hope the relationship works out.

Listening to how strongly Brown's devotion to his new coach was made me wonder about his attitude towards Brad Stevens.......... Was he not so bought in, not so full of respect ? It came off to me as a bit disrespectful to his former coach. After all, Stevens was a big reason that Boston drafted Brown so highly and saw talent in the guy that the rest of the league apparently did not. Then Stevens coached him into an all-star level player. Does Brown have all this respect because Udoka is a strong coach or because he is black ?

No doubt I'll be ripped to shreds for my suggestions here ...............
though Jaylen's tendency towards pseudo-intellectual, political posing wears a little thin sometimes.

It is quite possible and extremely likely for Jaylen to feel it important for more black coaches to be hired, to be excited to work with the man, Ime Udoka, because he has had a great experience with him already and for Jaylen to have a lot of love and respect for Brad Stevens.

It is possible to have an opinion on racial hiring practices and still treat, interact and work with people based on them being people, not white people or black people.

And as for the pseudo-intellectual comment, you must never have heard him speak on a number of various topics or read some of the speeches he has given at prestigious universities and seminars. The kid is legit intelligent. There is no pseudo anything.


Also, has anyone ever used the term pseudo-intellectual to describe a white person? Just wondering.

That last sentence is one ignorant comment.

Is it? I am not so sure. The only time I have seen it used on this site is to disparage Kyrie and Jaylen. In the print media, the only time I have seen it used is to insult black politicians and black athletes.

So I am truly asking the question, is it a term used to degrade people of color? Is it becoming a term like "uppity" or "thug" that is starting to take on a racist connotation?

[rogueandpoet]

Some actual basketball observations... I noted just after Ime was named head coach that in two of hi first interviews he tlked about "The first rounders". Suggesting that Pritchard, Timelord, Langford and Nesmith were going to get a good look. Next we've een that Brad Stevens has brought in some solid veteran defenders. Further there has been talk that Ime is looking to speed things up, push the ball up quicker and get the team running in transition. I think this bodes well. This years team is young and long. I don't think many teams can run with them, a big advantage.

[Roy H.]

  In the print media, the only time I have seen it used is to insult black politicians and black athletes.

?

Google it.  https://www.google.com/search?q=pseudo+intellectual

This isn’t really a term applied primarily to blacks.

[nickagneta]

  In the print media, the only time I have seen it used is to insult black politicians and black athletes.

?

Google it.  https://www.google.com/search?q=pseudo+intellectual

This isn’t really a term applied primarily to blacks.

I did Google it. I know what the definition is. Your citing of the definition doesn't help or change anything. My questions and my experience still stand. Is the term starting to take on a couched racist meaning?

For instance, our former president is definitely a pseudo-intellectual. Never saw him described that way. Ever.

[Roy H.]

  In the print media, the only time I have seen it used is to insult black politicians and black athletes.

?

Google it.  https://www.google.com/search?q=pseudo+intellectual

This isn’t really a term applied primarily to blacks.

I did Google it. I know what the definition is. Your citing of the definition doesn't help or change anything. My questions and my experience still stand. Is the term starting to take on a couched racist meaning?

For instance, our former president is definitely a pseudo-intellectual. Never saw him described that way. Ever.

I think Trump was called anti-intellectual, which is more apt.

I don’t think your experience is representative.  The reason I suggested google is because almost every photo image or article associates white people with the term.

[Goldstar88]

  In the print media, the only time I have seen it used is to insult black politicians and black athletes.

?

Google it.  https://www.google.com/search?q=pseudo+intellectual

This isn’t really a term applied primarily to blacks.

I did Google it. I know what the definition is. Your citing of the definition doesn't help or change anything. My questions and my experience still stand. Is the term starting to take on a couched racist meaning?

For instance, our former president is definitely a pseudo-intellectual. Never saw him described that way. Ever.

Woody Allen: the Pseudo-Intellectual ... is a numbing slog, short on diverting anecdotes and heavy on repetitive praise for his actors.-Bruce Bawer

 I’ve also heard James Franco being described as a pseudo-intellectual on more than one occasion. Some actors certainly fall into that category.

[gouki88]

  In the print media, the only time I have seen it used is to insult black politicians and black athletes.

?

Google it.  https://www.google.com/search?q=pseudo+intellectual

This isn’t really a term applied primarily to blacks.

I did Google it. I know what the definition is. Your citing of the definition doesn't help or change anything. My questions and my experience still stand. Is the term starting to take on a couched racist meaning?

For instance, our former president is definitely a pseudo-intellectual. Never saw him described that way. Ever.

I've seen a few white people described as psuedo-intellectual. Not athletes, however. But I've seen the label ascribed (rightfully) to Bill Maher and Joe Rogan, off the top of my head

[nickagneta]

All good examples, my CS people. I have never seen those people called that but if they were, and I'll take your word that they have been, then I have my answer. It's just been my experience that Jaylen, Kyrie, Lebron, Obama, Kanye, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Ilhan Omar, Ayanna Pressley, some of the NFL players that knelt, have been labeled as pseudo-intellectual but I haven't seen it with white folk.

But you have, so I guess it's not a term that is trending toward having a racist connotation like some other words have.

[tenn_smoothie]

On to lighter topics ................

Will Udoka be more effective with and place more emphasis on putting a stop to the tendencies of players like Smart, Tatum and Brown to force bad plays on offense - like dribbling into the middle of traffic, taking bad shots, penetrating and getting off balance and throwing bad passes, playing outside their offensive skill limits, holding the ball, over-dribbling and playing too much iso.

Stevens apparent refusal to hold players accountable and watching the same guys make the same dumb plays over and over again with no improvement, along with kicking games away with turnovers have been constant points of frustration on the game threads. Seeing evidence of these issues getting cleaned up would be a good early sign of Udoka's coaching awareness and effectiveness.

[Vermont Green]

I agree that we are better off not playing Horford as PF, meaning on the court with RWilliams or Kanter.  Those line ups make no sense to me.  And I am fine to play 1-big sometimes.  But I don't buy that Tatum is some kind of prototypical new age PF.  He is a wing, one of the best wings in the entire league.  And we will get the most out of our best player if he can play as a wing.

I agree with you on Tatum being best used as a wing. 

I'm curious why you think a lineup of Smart-Jaylen-Tatum-Horford-Rob Williams makes no sense.  A lineup of Rozier-Jaylen-Tatum-Horford-Baynes made it to game 7 of the ECF.

Al Horford at 31 is not the same thing as Al Horford at 35.

That is a fair point about the 2018/19 team.  But our most used line up that year was Horford and Marcus Morris with Irving, Smart and Tatum, though, by far (495 minutes).  Not Horford and Baynes.  Even at that point, Horford played mostly the C role, not the second big role.  To me, Morris is that kind of swing PF which if fine, a role that Parker could play.  That year, the second most used line up was Irving, Brown, Tatum, Hayward, Horford (142 minutes), so the 1 big version (per 82games).

I think what happens for some reason is people remember us playing the 1 big line up in the past more than we really did.  The only year where it was the most used line up was 2019-20 with Theis as the principal 1 big.  Every other year for the past, pretty much forever, there has been a PF in the starting line up and part of the most used line up.  Note that last season the most used line up had Theis and Thompson.

I think a rotation that models the 2018-19 team would be great.  The most used line up includes a Center (probably Horford but maybe Williams) and a PF or Swing, but maybe the second most used line up is the 1 big that everyone like so much.  In that we don't really have a single lead PF, you may see the "most used line up" diluted some as PF minutes are shared between Parker, GWill, Hernangomez instead of mostly going to 1 player (as was the case with Morris in 2018-19).

[Celtics2021]

I agree that we are better off not playing Horford as PF, meaning on the court with RWilliams or Kanter.  Those line ups make no sense to me.  And I am fine to play 1-big sometimes.  But I don't buy that Tatum is some kind of prototypical new age PF.  He is a wing, one of the best wings in the entire league.  And we will get the most out of our best player if he can play as a wing.

I agree with you on Tatum being best used as a wing. 

I'm curious why you think a lineup of Smart-Jaylen-Tatum-Horford-Rob Williams makes no sense.  A lineup of Rozier-Jaylen-Tatum-Horford-Baynes made it to game 7 of the ECF.

Al Horford at 31 is not the same thing as Al Horford at 35.

That is a fair point about the 2018/19 team.  But our most used line up that year was Horford and Marcus Morris with Irving, Smart and Tatum, though, by far (495 minutes).  Not Horford and Baynes.  Even at that point, Horford played mostly the C role, not the second big role.  To me, Morris is that kind of swing PF which if fine, a role that Parker could play.  That year, the second most used line up was Irving, Brown, Tatum, Hayward, Horford (142 minutes), so the 1 big version (per 82games).

I think what happens for some reason is people remember us playing the 1 big line up in the past more than we really did.  The only year where it was the most used line up was 2019-20 with Theis as the principal 1 big.  Every other year for the past, pretty much forever, there has been a PF in the starting line up and part of the most used line up.  Note that last season the most used line up had Theis and Thompson.

I think a rotationthat models the 2018-19 team would be great.  The most used line up includes a Center (probably Horford but maybe Williams), a PF or Swing, but maybe the second most used line up is the 1 big that everyone like so much.  In that we don't really have a single lead PF, you may see the "most used line up" diluted some as PF minutes are shared between Parker, GWill, Hernangomez instead of mostly going to 1 player (as was the case with Morris in 2018-19.l

This was a discussion about 2017-2018, not 2018-2019.  The most used 5-man line-up was Kyrie, Brown, Tatum, Horford, and Baynes.  Baynes and Horford played 861 minutes together during the regular season, which was about 60% of Baynes minutes and more than a third of Horford's.  Al was still primarily a center that year, but they did go with two bigs a lot more than they have in recent years.

[Vermont Green]

I agree that we are better off not playing Horford as PF, meaning on the court with RWilliams or Kanter.  Those line ups make no sense to me.  And I am fine to play 1-big sometimes.  But I don't buy that Tatum is some kind of prototypical new age PF.  He is a wing, one of the best wings in the entire league.  And we will get the most out of our best player if he can play as a wing.

I agree with you on Tatum being best used as a wing. 

I'm curious why you think a lineup of Smart-Jaylen-Tatum-Horford-Rob Williams makes no sense.  A lineup of Rozier-Jaylen-Tatum-Horford-Baynes made it to game 7 of the ECF.

Al Horford at 31 is not the same thing as Al Horford at 35.

That is a fair point about the 2018/19 team.  But our most used line up that year was Horford and Marcus Morris with Irving, Smart and Tatum, though, by far (495 minutes).  Not Horford and Baynes.  Even at that point, Horford played mostly the C role, not the second big role.  To me, Morris is that kind of swing PF which if fine, a role that Parker could play.  That year, the second most used line up was Irving, Brown, Tatum, Hayward, Horford (142 minutes), so the 1 big version (per 82games).

I think what happens for some reason is people remember us playing the 1 big line up in the past more than we really did.  The only year where it was the most used line up was 2019-20 with Theis as the principal 1 big.  Every other year for the past, pretty much forever, there has been a PF in the starting line up and part of the most used line up.  Note that last season the most used line up had Theis and Thompson.

I think a rotationthat models the 2018-19 team would be great.  The most used line up includes a Center (probably Horford but maybe Williams), a PF or Swing, but maybe the second most used line up is the 1 big that everyone like so much.  In that we don't really have a single lead PF, you may see the "most used line up" diluted some as PF minutes are shared between Parker, GWill, Hernangomez instead of mostly going to 1 player (as was the case with Morris in 2018-19.l

This was a discussion about 2017-2018, not 2018-2019.  The most used 5-man line-up was Kyrie, Brown, Tatum, Horford, and Baynes.  Baynes and Horford played 861 minutes together during the regular season, which was about 60% of Baynes minutes and more than a third of Horford's.  Al was still primarily a center that year, but they did go with two bigs a lot more than they have in recent years.

OK, yes, in 2017-18 I think Horford did play more PF:

Baynes/Horford      863 min
Morris/Horford       685 min
Morris/Baynes       358 min
Morris/Theis          309 min
Theis/Horford        244 min     

One caveat to that is Morris only played 54 games due to injuries.  Baynes played 81 games.  So I agree I think, that yes, Horford did play more as the PF in a two big line up with Baynes (as compared to later years), and yes, he was a lot younger then, but even then, he played a lot, perhaps slightly more, as a C.

I still don't think Horford - RWilliams is a very good idea but if you look at Horford as a PF vs. Parker or Grant Williams or Hernangomez, none of them are particular great options.  Now if Parker emerges and plays like he did in Atlanta, vs how he did at the end of last season for us, he may take a Marcus Morris type role as the lead PF.

[Goldstar88]

Jay King: Robert Williams said Marcus Smart and Grant Williams just had an altercation at the end of practice. “Grant was flopping and sh*t.” Williams said they’re all brothers and stuff like that happens. – via Twitter ByJayKing