KAT discussion

[Ed Monix]

Just gauging opinions on Karl-Anthony Towns.

Besides Bradley Beal, he seems the only other ‘elite’ player that may be available in the not too distant future.

Towns is obviously a divisive talent, but as a prospective Celtic, I am not a fan.

One thing that’s currently missing for the Celtics is an edge, a cut throat talent. Russell, Bird, Jordan, Garnett had it… LeBron, Durant and Giannis has it, Towns definitely does not.

Something not mention enough is how little Towns actually effects winning, especially if you view him as elite talent. His only playoff appearance was with Thibs & Butler, since then he hasn’t gotten close.

If you look back, how many hall-of-fame players have lost this often and as convincingly?

Towns is about to turn 26, has been in the NBA since 2015, yet his defence is terrible. When has anyone been this poor a defender by his prime then turned himself into even a solid to plus defender?

Looking back again, when has a team won a championship with a defensively poor, star centre?

[Who]

How about Pau Gasol as a comparison for Towns in terms of mentality pre-Lakers. In terms of aggressiveness, leadership, defensive intensity, willingness to do the dirty work.

I see Towns more as a #2 than a #1. Not because of a lack of talent but his dodgy mental approach to the game. And as I read the OP, it dawned on me that some of these criticisms remind me a lot of Pau Gasol during his Grizzlies days.

Pau of course went on to being a rock steady presence for the Lakers to 2 title winners and a 3rd as a defeated finalist.

[Birdman]

Towns & Tatum would be awesome together

[jambr380]

I know Towns isn’t perfect, but I would absolutely love him on the Cs. Much prefer him to Beal.

[gouki88]

How about Pau Gasol as a comparison for Towns in terms of mentality pre-Lakers. In terms of aggressiveness, leadership, defensive intensity, willingness to do the dirty work.

I see Towns more as a #2 than a #1. Not because of a lack of talent but his dodgy mental approach to the game. And as I read the OP, it dawned on me that some of these criticisms remind me a lot of Pau Gasol during his Grizzlies days.

Pau of course went on to being a rock steady presence for the Lakers to 2 title winners and a 3rd as a defeated finalist.

I like the comparison. Towns has more talent (perhaps the best shooting big ever), but I definitely see what you’re saying. Pairing him with Tatum would be super tough to beat

[Ed Monix]

How about Pau Gasol as a comparison for Towns in terms of mentality pre-Lakers. In terms of aggressiveness, leadership, defensive intensity, willingness to do the dirty work.

I see Towns more as a #2 than a #1. Not because of a lack of talent but his dodgy mental approach to the game. And as I read the OP, it dawned on me that some of these criticisms remind me a lot of Pau Gasol during his Grizzlies days.

Pau of course went on to being a rock steady presence for the Lakers to 2 title winners and a 3rd as a defeated finalist.

TP, Good comparison, especially stylistically.

The difference though is Pau got his terrible Memphis team into playoffs (in a deeper western conference) 3 times by the same age as Towns.

Pau Gasol’s 5th year W/S:

Offensive Win Share: 6.6
Defensive Win Share: 5.4

Karl Towns’ 5th year W/S:

Offensive Win Share: 3.8
Defensive Win Share: 1.6

Remember too Pau came from another country, didn’t speak the language, had no college experience so had to become accustomed to play in America. Not to mention was living in a small market where culturally he’d be very isolated.

[Ogaju]

Brown for KAT turns the Jays to the Tees.

[gouki88]

How about Pau Gasol as a comparison for Towns in terms of mentality pre-Lakers. In terms of aggressiveness, leadership, defensive intensity, willingness to do the dirty work.

I see Towns more as a #2 than a #1. Not because of a lack of talent but his dodgy mental approach to the game. And as I read the OP, it dawned on me that some of these criticisms remind me a lot of Pau Gasol during his Grizzlies days.

Pau of course went on to being a rock steady presence for the Lakers to 2 title winners and a 3rd as a defeated finalist.

TP

Good comparison.

But even Pau got his terrible Memphis team into playoffs (in a deeper western conference) 3 times by the same age as Towns.

Pau Gasol’s 5th year W/S:

Offensive Win Share: 6.6
Defensive Win Share: 5.4

Karl Towns’ 5th year W/S:

Offensive Win Share: 3.8
Defensive Win Share: 1.6

His role players were much better suited to him than KAT’s. Guys like Posey, Miller, Williams, Wells and Battier were all solid role players.

He also had Jerry West as the GM when they became good. Not a coincidence.

[Ed Monix]

How about Pau Gasol as a comparison for Towns in terms of mentality pre-Lakers. In terms of aggressiveness, leadership, defensive intensity, willingness to do the dirty work.

I see Towns more as a #2 than a #1. Not because of a lack of talent but his dodgy mental approach to the game. And as I read the OP, it dawned on me that some of these criticisms remind me a lot of Pau Gasol during his Grizzlies days.

Pau of course went on to being a rock steady presence for the Lakers to 2 title winners and a 3rd as a defeated finalist.

TP

Good comparison.

But even Pau got his terrible Memphis team into playoffs (in a deeper western conference) 3 times by the same age as Towns.

Pau Gasol’s 5th year W/S:

Offensive Win Share: 6.6
Defensive Win Share: 5.4

Karl Towns’ 5th year W/S:

Offensive Win Share: 3.8
Defensive Win Share: 1.6

His role players were much better suited to him than KAT’s. Guys like Posey, Miller, Williams, Wells and Battier were all solid role players.

He also had Jerry West as the GM when they became good. Not a coincidence.

IMO Towns has had far superior talent, support and structure than anything Pau had in Memphis.

Grizzlies owner spent so little on that organisation as a whole, it would be unfathomable in today’s NBA landscape.

Towns had Rose, Teague, Dunn, LaVine, Rubio, Wiggins.

These players were a very good fit with him, plus Garnett as a mentor and Thibs as his coach.

Pau made the playoffs 3 times with less talent against perhaps the deepest western conference ever:

- Lakers (O’Neal & Bryant)
- Spurs (Duncan, Parker, Ginobili)
- Rockets (Yao, McGrady)
- Mavericks (Nowitzki, Nash)
- Kings (Webber, Stojakovic, Divac)
- Timberwolves (Garnett)
- Suns (Marbury, Marion, Stoudemire)
- SuperSonics (Allen, Payton)

Pau had to go up against the one of the greatest generations of forwards and centres in NBA history, all playing extremely physically defense.

Towns came into one of the weakest era’s of big men ever, with rules suited to offensive play and has only made two all-star games.

Although I do agree they are similar players, personality wise they are very different. Towns has show that he’s mentally weak, lazy, childish and rarely looks physically in elite shape.

[gouki88]

How about Pau Gasol as a comparison for Towns in terms of mentality pre-Lakers. In terms of aggressiveness, leadership, defensive intensity, willingness to do the dirty work.

I see Towns more as a #2 than a #1. Not because of a lack of talent but his dodgy mental approach to the game. And as I read the OP, it dawned on me that some of these criticisms remind me a lot of Pau Gasol during his Grizzlies days.

Pau of course went on to being a rock steady presence for the Lakers to 2 title winners and a 3rd as a defeated finalist.

TP

Good comparison.

But even Pau got his terrible Memphis team into playoffs (in a deeper western conference) 3 times by the same age as Towns.

Pau Gasol’s 5th year W/S:

Offensive Win Share: 6.6
Defensive Win Share: 5.4

Karl Towns’ 5th year W/S:

Offensive Win Share: 3.8
Defensive Win Share: 1.6

His role players were much better suited to him than KAT’s. Guys like Posey, Miller, Williams, Wells and Battier were all solid role players.

He also had Jerry West as the GM when they became good. Not a coincidence.

IMO Towns has had far superior talent, support and structure than anything Pau had in Memphis.

Grizzlies owner spent so little on that organisation as a whole, it would be unfathomable in today’s NBA landscape.

Towns had Rose, Teague, Dunn, LaVine, Rubio, Wiggins.

These players were a very good fit with him, plus Garnett as a mentor and Thibs as his coach.

Pau made the playoffs 3 times with less talent against perhaps the deepest western conference ever:

- Lakers (O’Neal & Bryant)
- Spurs (Duncan, Parker, Ginobili)
- Rockets (Yao, McGrady)
- Mavericks (Nowitzki, Nash)
- Kings (Webber, Stojakovic, Divac)
- Timberwolves (Garnett)
- Suns (Marbury, Marion, Stoudemire)
- SuperSonics (Allen, Payton)

Pau had to go up against the one of the greatest generations of forwards and centres in NBA history, all playing extremely physically defense.

Towns came into one of the weakest era’s of big men ever, with rules suited to offensive play and has only made two all-star games.

Although I do agree they are similar players, personality wise they are very different. Towns has show that he’s mentally weak, lazy, childish and rarely looks physically in elite shape.

I can't express how much I disagree with this. The only one of these players who plays above average defence is Dunn, who played there one season as a rookie. Rubio is average, the rest were all terrible defenders when they played with Towns. Surrounding Towns with shoot-first (for the most part) players who don't play defence is terrible roster construction!

It seems fallacious to criticse KAT for only making 2 All-Star games (mainly due to injury, if healthy he'd be a 4 time All-Star) yet Pau didn't make his second All-Star appearance until he joined the Lakers. Mighty double standard.

You're also just making wild assumptions. Lazy? He missed 5 games in his first 4 seasons in total. Childish? I think him losing half his family to COVID has pretty obviously matured him a lot, sadly.

[Moranis]

How about Pau Gasol as a comparison for Towns in terms of mentality pre-Lakers. In terms of aggressiveness, leadership, defensive intensity, willingness to do the dirty work.

I see Towns more as a #2 than a #1. Not because of a lack of talent but his dodgy mental approach to the game. And as I read the OP, it dawned on me that some of these criticisms remind me a lot of Pau Gasol during his Grizzlies days.

Pau of course went on to being a rock steady presence for the Lakers to 2 title winners and a 3rd as a defeated finalist.

TP

Good comparison.

But even Pau got his terrible Memphis team into playoffs (in a deeper western conference) 3 times by the same age as Towns.

Pau Gasol’s 5th year W/S:

Offensive Win Share: 6.6
Defensive Win Share: 5.4

Karl Towns’ 5th year W/S:

Offensive Win Share: 3.8
Defensive Win Share: 1.6

His role players were much better suited to him than KAT’s. Guys like Posey, Miller, Williams, Wells and Battier were all solid role players.

He also had Jerry West as the GM when they became good. Not a coincidence.

IMO Towns has had far superior talent, support and structure than anything Pau had in Memphis.

Grizzlies owner spent so little on that organisation as a whole, it would be unfathomable in today’s NBA landscape.

Towns had Rose, Teague, Dunn, LaVine, Rubio, Wiggins.

These players were a very good fit with him, plus Garnett as a mentor and Thibs as his coach.

Pau made the playoffs 3 times with less talent against perhaps the deepest western conference ever:

- Lakers (O’Neal & Bryant)
- Spurs (Duncan, Parker, Ginobili)
- Rockets (Yao, McGrady)
- Mavericks (Nowitzki, Nash)
- Kings (Webber, Stojakovic, Divac)
- Timberwolves (Garnett)
- Suns (Marbury, Marion, Stoudemire)
- SuperSonics (Allen, Payton)

Pau had to go up against the one of the greatest generations of forwards and centres in NBA history, all playing extremely physically defense.

Towns came into one of the weakest era’s of big men ever, with rules suited to offensive play and has only made two all-star games.

Although I do agree they are similar players, personality wise they are very different. Towns has show that he’s mentally weak, lazy, childish and rarely looks physically in elite shape.

I can't express how much I disagree with this. The only one of these players who plays above average defence is Dunn, who played there one season as a rookie. Rubio is average, the rest were all terrible defenders when they played with Towns. Surrounding Towns with shoot-first (for the most part) players who don't play defence is terrible roster construction!

It seems fallacious to criticse KAT for only making 2 All-Star games (mainly due to injury, if healthy he'd be a 4 time All-Star) yet Pau didn't make his second All-Star appearance until he joined the Lakers. Mighty double standard.

You're also just making wild assumptions. Lazy? He missed 5 games in his first 4 seasons in total. Childish? I think him losing half his family to COVID has pretty obviously matured him a lot, sadly.

On top of that, Memphis had much better talent.  The 06 team had Shane Battier, Eddie Jones, Damon Stoudamire, Mike Miller, along with a lot of veteran quality depth (the next year they added Rudy Gay and Kyle Lowry as rookies).  Earlier teams had James Posey, Bonzi Wells, Jason Williams, and other quality players.  No world beaters, but Towns doesn't have world beaters either.  He was coached by Hubie Brown and had Jerry West as the executive (a guy who is probably the 2nd best executive in the sport's entire history - only Red is clearly better).  To act like there wasn't quality coaching/management in Memphis just isn't borne in reality. 

Minnesota's roster is just a mess.  they have no defenders and keep adding shoot first offensive players.  Beasley, Edwards, and Russell are not who I'd pick to put around Towns.  Just a total mess.

[johnnygreen]

As I mentioned in another thread, I would trade for Towns now, and make the decision for Beal much easier next off-season. A trio od Tatum, Towns, and Beal seems more solid and dynamic than Tatum, Brown, and Beal.

Boston: Towns
Philadelphia: Jaylen Brown
Minnesota: Ben Simmons, Timelord

[knuckleballer]

As I mentioned in another thread, I would trade for Towns now, and make the decision for Beal much easier next off-season. A trio od Tatum, Towns, and Beal seems more solid and dynamic than Tatum, Brown, and Beal.

Boston: Towns
Philadelphia: Jaylen Brown
Minnesota: Ben Simmons, Timelord

TP and…

[slamtheking]

As I mentioned in another thread, I would trade for Towns now, and make the decision for Beal much easier next off-season. A trio od Tatum, Towns, and Beal seems more solid and dynamic than Tatum, Brown, and Beal.

Boston: Towns
Philadelphia: Jaylen Brown
Minnesota: Ben Simmons, Timelord

A. Philly would have to kick a lot more than just Simmons.  Jaylen's worth more than Simmons after he faded away to nothing in the playoffs.  I think a first to Minny and one to the C's would do it.
B. this only works if Beal to Boston is a done deal.  Replacing Jaylen with KAT isn't enough to get this team to the next level.   I have concerns with KAT's desire to win -- I don't have those concerns with Jaylen who has stepped up in the playoffs every year.

[liam]

As I mentioned in another thread, I would trade for Towns now, and make the decision for Beal much easier next off-season. A trio od Tatum, Towns, and Beal seems more solid and dynamic than Tatum, Brown, and Beal.

Boston: Towns
Philadelphia: Jaylen Brown
Minnesota: Ben Simmons, Timelord

A. Philly would have to kick a lot more than just Simmons.  Jaylen's worth more than Simmons after he faded away to nothing in the playoffs.  I think a first to Minny and one to the C's would do it.
B. this only works if Beal to Boston is a done deal.  Replacing Jaylen with KAT isn't enough to get this team to the next level.   I have concerns with KAT's desire to win -- I don't have those concerns with Jaylen who has stepped up in the playoffs every year.

Jaylen is the best player in this trade and we send out TIMELORD. Count me out.