Keep Fournier don't go after Lillard

[Moranis]

I'd rather have Brown and Fournier than give up Brown (and other assets) to get Lillard.

Fournier isn't going to go to Portland and there is no reason Boston can't keep him.  The trade will be centered around Brown and Smart, plus a young player or 2 and future draft picks.  I just don't see how Boston would say no to that if the goal is to really compete for championships.

[NHHillbilly]

I hope the Celtics Management takes the San Antonio approach (as it looks like they will) and avoid individualistic superstars and keep building with team players who make those around them better.

Does the San Antonio style work without a Tim Duncan?

I think the hope is that Tatum is a Tim Duncan level talent.

[Goldstar88]

I'd rather have Brown and Fournier than give up Brown (and other assets) to get Lillard.

Fournier isn't going to go to Portland and there is no reason Boston can't keep him.  The trade will be centered around Brown and Smart, plus a young player or 2 and future draft picks.  I just don't see how Boston would say no to that if the goal is to really compete for championships.

Forget about other pieces and draft picks. Smart+Brown>Damian Lillard.

[Moranis]

I'd rather have Brown and Fournier than give up Brown (and other assets) to get Lillard.

Fournier isn't going to go to Portland and there is no reason Boston can't keep him.  The trade will be centered around Brown and Smart, plus a young player or 2 and future draft picks.  I just don't see how Boston would say no to that if the goal is to really compete for championships.

Forget about other pieces and draft picks. Smart+Brown>Damian Lillard.

I just don't see it.  Lillard is a borderline top 10 player and is certainly individually a far superior player to Brown (and obviously Smart).  That last 10% is the hardest part to acquire and Lillard has that.

[Goldstar88]

I'd rather have Brown and Fournier than give up Brown (and other assets) to get Lillard.

Fournier isn't going to go to Portland and there is no reason Boston can't keep him.  The trade will be centered around Brown and Smart, plus a young player or 2 and future draft picks.  I just don't see how Boston would say no to that if the goal is to really compete for championships.

Forget about other pieces and draft picks. Smart+Brown>Damian Lillard.

I just don't see it.  Lillard is a borderline top 10 player and is certainly individually a far superior player to Brown (and obviously Smart).  That last 10% is the hardest part to acquire and Lillard has that.

Dame is a better player than Brown. But the C’s are giving up a 24 year old 6’6” wing player, with a 7’ wingspan who is a better defender and on a very reasonable contract. Jaylen was averaging 27ppg until Kemba came back and was playing as good, if not better than Tatum.  Then they also have to give up Smart who is a 1st team all NBA defender who is still young at 27 years old and will more than likely command a contract in the $15-20M per year range.

Lillards contract is just too much and he’s going to be 32 next year. If you lose Smart plus Jaylen and add Dame, you are still not getting past Brooklyn or Milwaukee in the East. Never mind the West. It’s a lateral move at best and not worth doing.

[Roy H.]

I hope the Celtics Management takes the San Antonio approach (as it looks like they will) and avoid individualistic superstars and keep building with team players who make those around them better.

Does the San Antonio style work without a Tim Duncan?

I think the hope is that Tatum is a Tim Duncan level talent.

He's not. 

[Roy H.]

I'd rather have Brown and Fournier than give up Brown (and other assets) to get Lillard.

Fournier isn't going to go to Portland and there is no reason Boston can't keep him.  The trade will be centered around Brown and Smart, plus a young player or 2 and future draft picks.  I just don't see how Boston would say no to that if the goal is to really compete for championships.

Forget about other pieces and draft picks. Smart+Brown>Damian Lillard.

I just don't see it.  Lillard is a borderline top 10 player and is certainly individually a far superior player to Brown (and obviously Smart).  That last 10% is the hardest part to acquire and Lillard has that.

How much separation do you see between Lillard and Kyrie?

The obvious question is, if Kyrie couldn't win with Tatum + Brown + Smart + Horford, how is Lillard going to win with two of those guys gone?

[Celtics2021]

I'd rather have Brown and Fournier than give up Brown (and other assets) to get Lillard.

Fournier isn't going to go to Portland and there is no reason Boston can't keep him.  The trade will be centered around Brown and Smart, plus a young player or 2 and future draft picks.  I just don't see how Boston would say no to that if the goal is to really compete for championships.

Forget about other pieces and draft picks. Smart+Brown>Damian Lillard.

I just don't see it.  Lillard is a borderline top 10 player and is certainly individually a far superior player to Brown (and obviously Smart).  That last 10% is the hardest part to acquire and Lillard has that.

How much separation do you see between Lillard and Kyrie?

The obvious question is, if Kyrie couldn't win with Tatum + Brown + Smart + Horford, how is Lillard going to win with two of those guys gone?

The obvious answer is that Year 5 Tatum and Year 6 Brown are significantly better than the Year 2 and 3 versions of themselves that Irving played with.

[Roy H.]

I'd rather have Brown and Fournier than give up Brown (and other assets) to get Lillard.

Fournier isn't going to go to Portland and there is no reason Boston can't keep him.  The trade will be centered around Brown and Smart, plus a young player or 2 and future draft picks.  I just don't see how Boston would say no to that if the goal is to really compete for championships.

Forget about other pieces and draft picks. Smart+Brown>Damian Lillard.

I just don't see it.  Lillard is a borderline top 10 player and is certainly individually a far superior player to Brown (and obviously Smart).  That last 10% is the hardest part to acquire and Lillard has that.

How much separation do you see between Lillard and Kyrie?

The obvious question is, if Kyrie couldn't win with Tatum + Brown + Smart + Horford, how is Lillard going to win with two of those guys gone?

The obvious answer is that Year 5 Tatum and Year 6 Brown are significantly better than the Year 2 and 3 versions of themselves that Irving played with.

So Year 5 Tatum + Lillard > Kyrie + Year 2 Tatum + Year 3 Brown + Smart (along with a better Horford and better depth)?

[gouki88]

I'd rather have Brown and Fournier than give up Brown (and other assets) to get Lillard.

Fournier isn't going to go to Portland and there is no reason Boston can't keep him.  The trade will be centered around Brown and Smart, plus a young player or 2 and future draft picks.  I just don't see how Boston would say no to that if the goal is to really compete for championships.

Forget about other pieces and draft picks. Smart+Brown>Damian Lillard.

I just don't see it.  Lillard is a borderline top 10 player and is certainly individually a far superior player to Brown (and obviously Smart).  That last 10% is the hardest part to acquire and Lillard has that.

How much separation do you see between Lillard and Kyrie?

The obvious question is, if Kyrie couldn't win with Tatum + Brown + Smart + Horford, how is Lillard going to win with two of those guys gone?

The obvious answer is that Year 5 Tatum and Year 6 Brown are significantly better than the Year 2 and 3 versions of themselves that Irving played with.

So Year 5 Tatum + Lillard > Kyrie + Year 2 Tatum + Year 3 Brown + Smart (along with a better Horford and better depth)?

I think the discussion can be had. You've got two genuine top-10 guys in Tatum and Lillard.

Back then we had Kyrie, a 15-20 guy, two solid young wings who weren't close to All-Star level, a fringe All-Star in Horford and an elite role player in Smart.

[Roy H.]

I'd rather have Brown and Fournier than give up Brown (and other assets) to get Lillard.

Fournier isn't going to go to Portland and there is no reason Boston can't keep him.  The trade will be centered around Brown and Smart, plus a young player or 2 and future draft picks.  I just don't see how Boston would say no to that if the goal is to really compete for championships.

Forget about other pieces and draft picks. Smart+Brown>Damian Lillard.

I just don't see it.  Lillard is a borderline top 10 player and is certainly individually a far superior player to Brown (and obviously Smart).  That last 10% is the hardest part to acquire and Lillard has that.

How much separation do you see between Lillard and Kyrie?

The obvious question is, if Kyrie couldn't win with Tatum + Brown + Smart + Horford, how is Lillard going to win with two of those guys gone?

The obvious answer is that Year 5 Tatum and Year 6 Brown are significantly better than the Year 2 and 3 versions of themselves that Irving played with.

So Year 5 Tatum + Lillard > Kyrie + Year 2 Tatum + Year 3 Brown + Smart (along with a better Horford and better depth)?

I think the discussion can be had. You've got two genuine top-10 guys in Tatum and Lillard.

Back then we had Kyrie, a 15-20 guy, two solid young wings who weren't close to All-Star level, a fringe All-Star in Horford and an elite role player in Smart.

I don’t think Tatum and Lillard are both in the top 10.

Lebron
Durant
Giannis
Harden
Kawhi
Jokic
Embiid
Doncic
Curry
Davis

It’s hard to boot two of those guys.

[gouki88]

I'd rather have Brown and Fournier than give up Brown (and other assets) to get Lillard.

Fournier isn't going to go to Portland and there is no reason Boston can't keep him.  The trade will be centered around Brown and Smart, plus a young player or 2 and future draft picks.  I just don't see how Boston would say no to that if the goal is to really compete for championships.

Forget about other pieces and draft picks. Smart+Brown>Damian Lillard.

I just don't see it.  Lillard is a borderline top 10 player and is certainly individually a far superior player to Brown (and obviously Smart).  That last 10% is the hardest part to acquire and Lillard has that.

How much separation do you see between Lillard and Kyrie?

The obvious question is, if Kyrie couldn't win with Tatum + Brown + Smart + Horford, how is Lillard going to win with two of those guys gone?

The obvious answer is that Year 5 Tatum and Year 6 Brown are significantly better than the Year 2 and 3 versions of themselves that Irving played with.

So Year 5 Tatum + Lillard > Kyrie + Year 2 Tatum + Year 3 Brown + Smart (along with a better Horford and better depth)?

I think the discussion can be had. You've got two genuine top-10 guys in Tatum and Lillard.

Back then we had Kyrie, a 15-20 guy, two solid young wings who weren't close to All-Star level, a fringe All-Star in Horford and an elite role player in Smart.

I don’t think Tatum and Lillard are both in the top 10.

Lebron
Durant
Giannis
Harden
Kawhi
Jokic
Embiid
Doncic
Curry
Davis

It’s hard to boot two of those guys.

Fair point, top-10 or thereabouts* is probably more apt. I think durability matters a lot, and the most games Lillard has missed is 9. I think the margin between Curry, Davis and Lillard is miniscule, and believe Tatum will be in that discussion next season too.

[Moranis]

I'd rather have Brown and Fournier than give up Brown (and other assets) to get Lillard.

Fournier isn't going to go to Portland and there is no reason Boston can't keep him.  The trade will be centered around Brown and Smart, plus a young player or 2 and future draft picks.  I just don't see how Boston would say no to that if the goal is to really compete for championships.

Forget about other pieces and draft picks. Smart+Brown>Damian Lillard.

I just don't see it.  Lillard is a borderline top 10 player and is certainly individually a far superior player to Brown (and obviously Smart).  That last 10% is the hardest part to acquire and Lillard has that.

How much separation do you see between Lillard and Kyrie?

The obvious question is, if Kyrie couldn't win with Tatum + Brown + Smart + Horford, how is Lillard going to win with two of those guys gone?

The obvious answer is that Year 5 Tatum and Year 6 Brown are significantly better than the Year 2 and 3 versions of themselves that Irving played with.

So Year 5 Tatum + Lillard > Kyrie + Year 2 Tatum + Year 3 Brown + Smart (along with a better Horford and better depth)?

I think the discussion can be had. You've got two genuine top-10 guys in Tatum and Lillard.

Back then we had Kyrie, a 15-20 guy, two solid young wings who weren't close to All-Star level, a fringe All-Star in Horford and an elite role player in Smart.

I don’t think Tatum and Lillard are both in the top 10.

Lebron
Durant
Giannis
Harden
Kawhi
Jokic
Embiid
Doncic
Curry
Davis

It’s hard to boot two of those guys.

Fair point, top-10 or thereabouts* is probably more apt. I think durability matters a lot, and the most games Lillard has missed is 9. I think the margin between Curry, Davis and Lillard is miniscule, and believe Tatum will be in that discussion next season too.

Plus Kawhi isn't playing and Davis is always hurt.

As to Roy's original question, Lillard is significantly better than Irving.  He is far more consistent, far more durable, and at least tries on defense.  Irving's teams are historically not much better with him playing vs not playing as well, and that is not the case with Lillard (the Blazers are significantly worse without Lillard).  Lillard is a better passer and rebounder as well.  He is just a much more complete player.  Irving is the slightly better shooter, but he isn't the better scorer overall (Lillard scores more per shot).  Couple that with the fact that you know Irving is going to miss 25% of the games and it is no contest. 

I know Nick Wright isn't the most well like national commentator here, but this is his NBA player pyramid going into next year

https://twitter.com/FTFonFS1/status/1418185791486922752/photo/3

Because of injuries he had Kawhi and AD outside of the top 10 (though he also had Chris Paul, which makes no sense to me).  He had Lillard in the top 10 and Tatum in the 13-17 tier (Irving is in the 18-23 tier - same as Beal).  He had Brown in the 24-30 tier.

He did like a 4 minute segment on it so you can find all of his reasoning, but it doesn't seem that far off (aside from Paul, I think all of the other slotting is pretty easy to argue as correct). 


So again assuming the trade is something like Brown, Smart, Nesmith, and future 1st's Boston's roster is basically this

PG - Lillard, Pritchard, Edwards
SG - Fournier, Langford
SF - Tatum, Ojeleye
PF - Thompson, Parker, G. Williams
C - Horford, R. Williams, Brown

To me that team is significantly better than this one

PG - Irving, Rozier, Wanamaker
SG - Brown, Smart
SF - Tatum, Hayward, Ojeleye
PF - Morris, Theis
C - Horford, Baynes, R. Williams

Yes even with Horford not being as good.  Because at the end of the day, you win with top tier talent and in that Lillard and 2022 Tatum are the 2 best players on either one of those teams.  That quite simply matters a lot.

[rogueandpoet]

I'm thinking people are over-estimating Lillard. Brown is better than Lillard, period. On defence it's not even close, Brown averaged 24.7, shot 39 plus behind the arc. He scores efficiently. Brown is just getting started. So yeah, keep Fournier I guess, But forget Lillard.

[tenn_smoothie]

High scoring, ball-dominant guards have not made this Celtics group better.
We need a play-making distributor (or maybe just a reeled-in, well coached Marcus Smart).
Lillard or Beal or DeRozan or whoever are just more of the same of what we have been trying.
Upgrade the post and add catch-and-shoot guys.