Poll: Where do you rank Giannis among PFs all time?

[Jvalin]

The single best PF of all time is a tough one.  Malone, Barkley, Garnett (is he any more of a PF vs C than Russell?), Nowitzki, McHale, and now Giannis (I am sure there are some others I am missing).  It is a tough one.  You could put LeBron in as a PF as well.  That is why I pick Russell with Kareem at C for my all time, first team all NBA.

If I had to rank them, I'd go Duncan >> Giannis > Dirk > KG > Barkley > Karl Malone > Anthony Davis > McHale (although I know next to nothing about old school players like Elvin Hayes and Bob Pettit)

AD will possibly climb up that list in the not-too-distant future. If I were ranking peaks, I'd already take AD over Malone. But maybe that's just me cause I believe Malone is overrated.

For me the best 2 way player is just another way of saying the best player, and in my opinion still Jordan.

This is it for me.

Jordan was the greatest offensive force in the modern era AND a 9 time 1st team All-Defense player AND 1 time Defensive Player of the Year.

How soon we forget.

2-way player = impactful on both sides of the ball

For instance, plenty of people would argue that Nash was better than Payton, but Payton was clearly the better 2-way player.

Likewise, imo Dirk > AD, but AD is a better 2-way player.

A bit more controversial example: Imo, Jokic > Giannis, but Giannis is a better 2-way player.

I could go on and on. Not sure what's so confusing tbh. We talk about 2-way players all the time, especially since the C's are built around Brown and Tatum who are both 2-way players.

Again, MJ was obviously an amazing 2-way player. It's just that bigs have a larger defensive impact than guards.

[nickagneta]

The single best PF of all time is a tough one.  Malone, Barkley, Garnett (is he any more of a PF vs C than Russell?), Nowitzki, McHale, and now Giannis (I am sure there are some others I am missing).  It is a tough one.  You could put LeBron in as a PF as well.  That is why I pick Russell with Kareem at C for my all time, first team all NBA.

If I had to rank them, I'd go Duncan >> Giannis > Dirk > KG > Barkley > Karl Malone > Anthony Davis > McHale (although I know next to nothing about old school players like Elvin Hayes and Bob Pettit)

AD will possibly climb up that list in the not-too-distant future. If I were ranking peaks, I'd already take AD over Malone. But maybe that's just me cause I believe Malone is overrated.

For me the best 2 way player is just another way of saying the best player, and in my opinion still Jordan.

This is it for me.

Jordan was the greatest offensive force in the modern era AND a 9 time 1st team All-Defense player AND 1 time Defensive Player of the Year.

How soon we forget.

2-way player = impactful on both sides of the ball

For instance, plenty of people would argue that Nash was better than Payton, but Payton was clearly the better 2-way player.

Likewise, imo Dirk > AD, but AD is a better 2-way player.

A bit more controversial example: Imo, Jokic > Giannis, but Giannis is a better 2-way player.

I could go on and on. Not sure what's so confusing tbh. We talk about 2-way players all the time, especially since the C's are built around Brown and Tatum who are both 2-way players.

Are you trying to claim MJ isn't a two-way player? Because that's what I was getting at. Yes, I agreed MJ was the best player, but he was also the best two-way player.

Also, Giannis is a much better player than Jokic, as well as a much, much, much better two way player.

[Ed Monix]

I think what is amazing about Giannis is he’s going to be the first player who started his career as a guard and will most likely end it as a centre.

Giannis most likely won’t ever catch LeBron all time points total, but I can see him playing into his 40’s if he wishes, and perhaps ends his career in the top 3-4 all time scoring.

[Jvalin]

The single best PF of all time is a tough one.  Malone, Barkley, Garnett (is he any more of a PF vs C than Russell?), Nowitzki, McHale, and now Giannis (I am sure there are some others I am missing).  It is a tough one.  You could put LeBron in as a PF as well.  That is why I pick Russell with Kareem at C for my all time, first team all NBA.

If I had to rank them, I'd go Duncan >> Giannis > Dirk > KG > Barkley > Karl Malone > Anthony Davis > McHale (although I know next to nothing about old school players like Elvin Hayes and Bob Pettit)

AD will possibly climb up that list in the not-too-distant future. If I were ranking peaks, I'd already take AD over Malone. But maybe that's just me cause I believe Malone is overrated.

For me the best 2 way player is just another way of saying the best player, and in my opinion still Jordan.

This is it for me.

Jordan was the greatest offensive force in the modern era AND a 9 time 1st team All-Defense player AND 1 time Defensive Player of the Year.

How soon we forget.

2-way player = impactful on both sides of the ball

For instance, plenty of people would argue that Nash was better than Payton, but Payton was clearly the better 2-way player.

Likewise, imo Dirk > AD, but AD is a better 2-way player.

A bit more controversial example: Imo, Jokic > Giannis, but Giannis is a better 2-way player.

I could go on and on. Not sure what's so confusing tbh. We talk about 2-way players all the time, especially since the C's are built around Brown and Tatum who are both 2-way players.

Are you trying to claim MJ isn't a two-way player? Because that's what I was getting at. Yes, I agreed MJ was the best player, but he was also the best two-way player.

Also, Giannis is a much better player than Jokic, as well as a much, much, much better two way player.

Check out the OP mate. Obviously, MJ was an amazing 2-way player. No one's arguing against that. It's just that bigs have a larger defensive impact than guards. To a lesser extent, the same goes for forwards. If we are talking just defense, gimme Russell, Giannis, Dream, David Robinson, Duncan, KG and a few more guys over Jordan.

Agree to disagree on Jokic vs Giannis, but that's not the point here.

[liam]

Wouldn't Wilt be the best two way player of all time?

[wiley]

great and historic performance by Giannis...love the guy.  Fun to root for him.

I will just say that the Suns had no Giannis stopper, and we have seen Giannis occasionally stymied (not stopped) by a great defender who is quick enough and big enough, coupled with team defense that takes charges against him.

So, Giannis has to keep going and dominate against a team he doesn't match up with quite as well, one with a superior defensive scheme and superior defensive PF.  Ayton too slow for Giannis...
The Suns made it competitive with their excellent wings...and Paul, and Ayton at times...but lack the right guy and overall means to slow Giannis.   

[nickagneta]

The single best PF of all time is a tough one.  Malone, Barkley, Garnett (is he any more of a PF vs C than Russell?), Nowitzki, McHale, and now Giannis (I am sure there are some others I am missing).  It is a tough one.  You could put LeBron in as a PF as well.  That is why I pick Russell with Kareem at C for my all time, first team all NBA.

If I had to rank them, I'd go Duncan >> Giannis > Dirk > KG > Barkley > Karl Malone > Anthony Davis > McHale (although I know next to nothing about old school players like Elvin Hayes and Bob Pettit)

AD will possibly climb up that list in the not-too-distant future. If I were ranking peaks, I'd already take AD over Malone. But maybe that's just me cause I believe Malone is overrated.

For me the best 2 way player is just another way of saying the best player, and in my opinion still Jordan.

This is it for me.

Jordan was the greatest offensive force in the modern era AND a 9 time 1st team All-Defense player AND 1 time Defensive Player of the Year.

How soon we forget.

2-way player = impactful on both sides of the ball

For instance, plenty of people would argue that Nash was better than Payton, but Payton was clearly the better 2-way player.

Likewise, imo Dirk > AD, but AD is a better 2-way player.

A bit more controversial example: Imo, Jokic > Giannis, but Giannis is a better 2-way player.

I could go on and on. Not sure what's so confusing tbh. We talk about 2-way players all the time, especially since the C's are built around Brown and Tatum who are both 2-way players.

Are you trying to claim MJ isn't a two-way player? Because that's what I was getting at. Yes, I agreed MJ was the best player, but he was also the best two-way player.

Also, Giannis is a much better player than Jokic, as well as a much, much, much better two way player.

Check out the OP mate. Obviously, MJ was an amazing 2-way player. No one's arguing against that. It's just that bigs have a larger defensive impact than guards. To a lesser extent, the same goes for forwards. If we are talking just defense, gimme Giannis, Dream, David Robinson, Duncan, KG and a few more guys over Jordan.

Agree to disagree on Jokic vs Giannis, but that's not the point here.

Disagree about the idea that the most impactful defenders are bigs, especially over the last 30 or so years. Bigs can, for the most part, not defend wings and guards. A handful can but most can't. MJ could guard 1-4 and shut those guys down. Pippen was 1-5. Kawhi, Lebron, Tony Allen, Kobe, etc. Wing players that could guard 1-4.

Robinson, Duncan, KG they were guarding bigs and being a last line of defense, but they weren't as versatile, and so, IMO, not as impactful. Sure you want elite defenders everywhere on the court, but elite defenders that can guard 4-5 positions are more impactful.

 

[Jvalin]

Wouldn't Wilt be the best two way player of all time?

Don't think there's just one right answer tbh. Imo, it's a matter of personal preference. Gun to my head, I'd probably opt for Duncan (which is why I voted ''no'' in the poll), but there are plenty of players worth considering. I listed some of the most obvious choices in the OP.

[Jvalin]

The single best PF of all time is a tough one.  Malone, Barkley, Garnett (is he any more of a PF vs C than Russell?), Nowitzki, McHale, and now Giannis (I am sure there are some others I am missing).  It is a tough one.  You could put LeBron in as a PF as well.  That is why I pick Russell with Kareem at C for my all time, first team all NBA.

If I had to rank them, I'd go Duncan >> Giannis > Dirk > KG > Barkley > Karl Malone > Anthony Davis > McHale (although I know next to nothing about old school players like Elvin Hayes and Bob Pettit)

AD will possibly climb up that list in the not-too-distant future. If I were ranking peaks, I'd already take AD over Malone. But maybe that's just me cause I believe Malone is overrated.

For me the best 2 way player is just another way of saying the best player, and in my opinion still Jordan.

This is it for me.

Jordan was the greatest offensive force in the modern era AND a 9 time 1st team All-Defense player AND 1 time Defensive Player of the Year.

How soon we forget.

2-way player = impactful on both sides of the ball

For instance, plenty of people would argue that Nash was better than Payton, but Payton was clearly the better 2-way player.

Likewise, imo Dirk > AD, but AD is a better 2-way player.

A bit more controversial example: Imo, Jokic > Giannis, but Giannis is a better 2-way player.

I could go on and on. Not sure what's so confusing tbh. We talk about 2-way players all the time, especially since the C's are built around Brown and Tatum who are both 2-way players.

Are you trying to claim MJ isn't a two-way player? Because that's what I was getting at. Yes, I agreed MJ was the best player, but he was also the best two-way player.

Also, Giannis is a much better player than Jokic, as well as a much, much, much better two way player.

Check out the OP mate. Obviously, MJ was an amazing 2-way player. No one's arguing against that. It's just that bigs have a larger defensive impact than guards. To a lesser extent, the same goes for forwards. If we are talking just defense, gimme Giannis, Dream, David Robinson, Duncan, KG and a few more guys over Jordan.

Agree to disagree on Jokic vs Giannis, but that's not the point here.

Disagree about the idea that the most impactful defenders are bigs, especially over the last 30 or so years. Bigs can, for the most part, not defend wings and guards. A handful can but most can't. MJ could guard 1-4 and shut those guys down. Pippen was 1-5. Kawhi, Lebron, Tony Allen, Kobe, etc. Wing players that could guard 1-4.

Robinson, Duncan, KG they were guarding bigs and being a last line of defense, but they weren't as versatile, and so, IMO, not as impactful. Sure you want elite defenders everywhere on the court, but elite defenders that can guard 4-5 positions are more impactful.

Well, the top 10 players in defensive win shares are all bigs. So there's that. Plenty of modern bigs can defend the perimeter. For instance, Giannis, AD and Bam.

Old school bigs were operating in a drop scheme on defense, cause opposing bigs were scoring the majority of their points in the paint. Agreed that if they were playing in today's NBA they'd have to adjust to the modern game. At the end of the day, it's always difficult to compare players from different eras.

[Roy H.]

He’s one of them.

But, also on the list are MJ, Duncan, Hakeem, Robinson, KG, Malone, Kareem, Hondo, West, Pippen, Wilt, and loads of others.

[Moranis]

I've been calling Giannis the best player in the world for the last couple of seasons and even I think this is silly.  He is 26 and 8 years into his career.  A lot can happen before he retires. 

[gouki88]

It's Michael Jordan and then daylight when talking two-way. Jordan was DPOY while averaging 35/6/6. I don't know if it's possible to really comprehend such a season in the modern NBA.
Kareem is also still a better two-way player than Giannis, and probably always will be. 6 rings and 6 MVPs is hard to catch!
Duncan gets the edge due to his longevity - over a decade of being a walking double-double with elite defence.
It's hard to compare him to Bill and Wilt.

I think Giannis is in the Hakeem / Admiral territory right now though. I think those two were the better defenders, Giannis the better passer. Everything else (rebounding and scoring) is pretty comparable.

I firmly believe that what we're seeing from Giannis is what we'd have seen from KG if KG was drafted by New Jersey or someone - anyone - else.

[Kiorrik]

Calm down.

The guy's won a chip in a year where everyone went "big asterisk" and "yeh but health".

Let's see what happens the next 2 years before we crown him anything.

[liam]

Calm down.

The guy's won a chip in a year where everyone went "big asterisk" and "yeh but health".

Let's see what happens the next 2 years before we crown him anything.

If we can't totally overreact to the end of the season then what are we doing here!!!
 

[smokeablount]

Some interesting comparative data on age at first championship:

Kobe            21
Duncan        23
Wade           24
Curry           27
Lebron         27
Jordan         28
Durant         28

Giannis        26

Kobe and Duncan came into winning situations so it was not as much about their singular efforts.  Wade had Shaq for his first title so there is context to consider but Giannis at age 26 is a great accomplishment.

Wade having Donaghy made it less about his singular effort too.