Shouldn't we give Marcus Smart the chance to emerge as another Jrue Holiday?

[Atzar]

I haven't looked into the stats about this, but based on the eye test, I feel like we usually saw Marcus Smart have his doing-too-much awful shooting games when we were missing some of our best players and he was trying to step up as the second or third option.  With that in mind, I don't understand where the hope that he turns into Holiday - a viable third scoring option in addition to his duties as a lockdown defender and passer - even comes from. 

He's a useful player when he's not required to shoulder a large burden on offense.  But when he's required to generate offense, he's too inefficient and his defense slips.  Maybe he tracks like Lowry did, but there are a lot more players who don't have that kind of late-career surge than there are players who do.  So while I'd love to see it, I won't hold my breath. 

[nebist]

The elephant in the room is his extension...what do you pay him for that chance to emerge?

He's likely expecting in the ballpark of 4 yrs 100 mil

If he extends this offseason (my hope), the most he can extend for is 4/77 in addition to his 14 mil this year.

That’s a not insane top number for a clear starter. Ideally, we could sign him for something like 4/64, but I would imagine his camp will be pushing for the whole 4/77 to give up a shot at UFA. Personally, I’d offer him the full 4/77 as long as there were incentives tied to the last 10-15 million. Incentives tied to making the all-defensive team and 3 point shooting at percentage (38%+?) could help incentivize Smart leaning into his best role on the team as well.

[footey]

Rather than expecting Smart to play up to that level, it is more realistic that Holliday will play down to Smart level, especially from 3 point range. He has been pretty dreadful in the playoffs.   28.8% from 3 in playoffs.  41.7% FGA.  67.4% from the line.  I don't get the love.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/jrue-holiday-playoff-stats-2021

This Board over-rates him. 

[Roy H.]

Rather than expecting Smart to play up to that level, it is more realistic that Holliday will play down to Smart level, especially from 3 point range. He has been pretty dreadful in the playoffs.   28.8% from 3 in playoffs.  41.7% FGA.  67.4% from the line.  I don't get the love.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/jrue-holiday-playoff-stats-2021

This Board over-rates him.

He's also averaging 17 / 8 / 6 with elite defense for a team that's in the Finals, and he's considered one of the best teammates and citizens in the NBA.  His shooting has been poor overall in the playoffs, but he shot 39% 3PT% / 56% 2PT% in the regular season.

[johnnygreen]

I still don’t get the infatuation with Holiday. He is a solid player, but nothing close to the package the Bucks gave up to trade for him. I’ve been blown away by his lack of feel for the game during these playoffs, especially for a PG.

If Marcus Smart was to be the Celtics starter next season, I would like to see him adjust his shooting philosophy. I don’t mind the occasional three attempt. I want Marcus to look at Chris Paul, and how Paul mastered the art of the mid-range game. For the last two seasons, Marcus averages about 11 shots per game, with 6 being from three. If he maintains those same number of attempts, I’d rather see him only taking closer to 3 attempts from three instead. In addition, if he’s attacking the paint more, his free throw attempts will increase too, and to his credit, Marcus is a reliable shooter from the line. Plus, if he is attacking the paint, and in a pass/shooting position from the free throw line or elbow, he’s in a better position to shoot and pass to either cutters or guys set up for open threes. If he continues to hover above the three point line, he basically takes himself out of the offense and becomes easily defendable.

[Vermont Green]

The elephant in the room is his extension...what do you pay him for that chance to emerge?

He's likely expecting in the ballpark of 4 yrs 100 mil

If he extends this offseason (my hope), the most he can extend for is 4/77 in addition to his 14 mil this year.

That’s a not insane top number for a clear starter. Ideally, we could sign him for something like 4/64, but I would imagine his camp will be pushing for the whole 4/77 to give up a shot at UFA. Personally, I’d offer him the full 4/77 as long as there were incentives tied to the last 10-15 million. Incentives tied to making the all-defensive team and 3 point shooting at percentage (38%+?) could help incentivize Smart leaning into his best role on the team as well.

Even if Marcus plays next season better than Lowry or Holiday, I am not sure we can pay him nearly $20M per.  We are paying and will have to continue to pay Brown and Tatum so if we pay Smart that much, you are really limiting the team.  I would like to see the 3rd top contract go to a big over a PG (Smart or otherwise).  If the team was constructed differently, maybe it would make more sense to pay that kind of money for a PG (for example if we traded Brown for an all star level PF or something like that).  But as the team stands now, hard to justify paying that much for a PG.

[Roy H.]

Comparing defense and passing is hard as you do not have a definitive measure or stat as you do with scoring.  Jrue Holiday has always been a full time PG which in my mind means more opportunities for assists and to showcase passing.  Last season, Holiday had 6.1 assts, Smart 5.7  My premise is that Smart as a full time PG (which he wasn't last season) will up the assists number. 

I think you're overlooking a bit of Jrue's versatility.  He's capable of being a full-time PG, as that's perhaps his most natural position.  However, he hasn't played there exclusively.  In fact, over the past three years in New Orleans, he's played PG less than 5% of the time.  He's played more time at SF (!!!) there than PG.  Yes, it was bad coaching, but the guy was a gamer, and was an elite defender even against SFs.

In 2018, he was the SF, with Rondo being the primary PG and Etwaun Moore getting 80 starts at SG (crazy, right?)  Then in 2019, he started (at various times) alongside Tim Frazier, Elfrid Payton, and Moore.  In 2020, Lonzo Ball came to town.

The Pelicans should be ashamed.  They had two legitimate building blocks for a great team in Anthony Davis and Holiday.  Both are gifted, two-way players.  And yet, the team could never build a team around them, usually adding bad draft picks and journeymen.

[Roy H.]

I still don’t get the infatuation with Holiday. He is a solid player, but nothing close to the package the Bucks gave up to trade for him. I’ve been blown away by his lack of feel for the game during these playoffs, especially for a PG.

If Marcus Smart was to be the Celtics starter next season, I would like to see him adjust his shooting philosophy. I don’t mind the occasional three attempt. I want Marcus to look at Chris Paul, and how Paul mastered the art of the mid-range game. For the last two seasons, Marcus averages about 11 shots per game, with 6 being from three. If he maintains those same number of attempts, I’d rather see him only taking closer to 3 attempts from three instead. In addition, if he’s attacking the paint more, his free throw attempts will increase too, and to his credit, Marcus is a reliable shooter from the line. Plus, if he is attacking the paint, and in a pass/shooting position from the free throw line or elbow, he’s in a better position to shoot and pass to either cutters or guys set up for open threes. If he continues to hover above the three point line, he basically takes himself out of the offense and becomes easily defendable.

Why have Marcus take more mid-range jumpers?  Throughout his career, he's been quite bad at them, shooting well below 40% from 10 feet to the 3PT line.  His 3PTer is actually a more efficient shot.

[footey]

Rather than expecting Smart to play up to that level, it is more realistic that Holliday will play down to Smart level, especially from 3 point range. He has been pretty dreadful in the playoffs.   28.8% from 3 in playoffs.  41.7% FGA.  67.4% from the line.  I don't get the love.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/jrue-holiday-playoff-stats-2021

This Board over-rates him.

He's also averaging 17 / 8 / 6 with elite defense for a team that's in the Finals, and he's considered one of the best teammates and citizens in the NBA.  His shooting has been poor overall in the playoffs, but he shot 39% 3PT% / 56% 2PT% in the regular season.

We're not discussing his altruism. We are talking about his performance, and I mentioned how poorly he has played in the playoffs.   His defense is over-rated, especially during the playoffs.   

[Roy H.]

Rather than expecting Smart to play up to that level, it is more realistic that Holliday will play down to Smart level, especially from 3 point range. He has been pretty dreadful in the playoffs.   28.8% from 3 in playoffs.  41.7% FGA.  67.4% from the line.  I don't get the love.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/jrue-holiday-playoff-stats-2021

This Board over-rates him.

He's also averaging 17 / 8 / 6 with elite defense for a team that's in the Finals, and he's considered one of the best teammates and citizens in the NBA.  His shooting has been poor overall in the playoffs, but he shot 39% 3PT% / 56% 2PT% in the regular season.

We're not discussing his altruism. We are talking about his performance, and I mentioned how poorly he has played in the playoffs.   His defense is over-rated, especially during the playoffs.

Nonsense about his defense.  He’s shot poorly.  Everything else has been on point. 

[Vermont Green]

Comparing defense and passing is hard as you do not have a definitive measure or stat as you do with scoring.  Jrue Holiday has always been a full time PG which in my mind means more opportunities for assists and to showcase passing.  Last season, Holiday had 6.1 assts, Smart 5.7  My premise is that Smart as a full time PG (which he wasn't last season) will up the assists number. 

I think you're overlooking a bit of Jrue's versatility.  He's capable of being a full-time PG, as that's perhaps his most natural position.  However, he hasn't played there exclusively.  In fact, over the past three years in New Orleans, he's played PG less than 5% of the time.  He's played more time at SF (!!!) there than PG.  Yes, it was bad coaching, but the guy was a gamer, and was an elite defender even against SFs.

In 2018, he was the SF, with Rondo being the primary PG and Etwaun Moore getting 80 starts at SG (crazy, right?)  Then in 2019, he started (at various times) alongside Tim Frazier, Elfrid Payton, and Moore.  In 2020, Lonzo Ball came to town.

The Pelicans should be ashamed.  They had two legitimate building blocks for a great team in Anthony Davis and Holiday.  Both are gifted, two-way players.  And yet, the team could never build a team around them, usually adding bad draft picks and journeymen.

I was just comparing last season where Holiday played principally as the PG for Milwaukee.  In that season, Holiday scored better (18 vs 13 pts) and more efficiently than Smart (59.2% vs 53.9% TS%) but otherwise, Smart was pretty comparable, assists and otherwise, even at lower usage (19.6% vs 23.0%).

Like Smart, Holiday is a versatile player based largely on his strength which gives both the ability to defend bigger players.  I am not trying to take anything away from Holiday.  My point is we can get most of what Holiday gave Milwaukee from Smart even if Smart doesn't improve.  And if Smart can hit a couple more shots a week, even his offensive efficiency will catch up with Holiday.

[pearljammer10]

No.

Jrue Holiday is much better.

[nickagneta]

The team should give Marcus Smart the chance to be a better Marcus Smart because he's never going to be on Jrue's level offensively. Ever.

But if Marcus can be a 10-11 point, 7 assist, 2.5 turnover player w/ splits of 44/37/82, that's a Marcus Smart I want as a PG for this team. Smaller amount of shots, take the better shots to be more efficient and be that offense initiator that can move the ball and take care of it. Play like the defensive beast you are. That Marcus, I might think about extending

[Celtics4ever]

Smart has no where near the skills required for him to be Holiday.  Also, doesn't have the offensive IQ.

I think Smart has a real high basketball IQ but not the skillset.   Still maybe he never had a defined role and a tough coach can define his role and make him focus on distribution and D.

Ainge thought his basketball IQ was off the charts

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/boston-celtics/danny-ainges-take-basketball-iq-marcus-smart

The Trouble with him has always been his shot selection which is a function of basketball IQ.   But defensively, he has a high basketball IQ and his passing is good at times. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xm05Mzn82u4

Marcus always gets in trouble when he thinks he is better than what he is folks.   But he was lost and won some games with that mentality.

Of course, much will depend on what Stevens can do in terms of improving the team.   But he does deserves a chance, YES! 

[Neurotic Guy]

I suppose he deserves a chance to be a defensive catalyst and a playmaker.  He's been an emotional leader on and off the court and he works hard.  But not a good year last year.  He was not the same player. 
He doesn't seem to me to be Jrue Holiday-esque, unless you just think of him maybe as the third best player.   He's not a guy I'd ever want to rely on as the 3rd best scorer.   Smart needs to shoot less, see if he can be the defensive force he used to be, and see what he can become as a focused distributor.  Yeah, I go along with him having earned a chance to show he can do that.