Grading Brad's first trade

[footey]

I am in the B- to A- range. B- if we don't re-sign Fournier.  A- if this trade enables us to re-sign Fournier.

I think Al Horford is a net positive over Kemba Walker for this team. It will help us re-establish a defensive identity. It will make us a bigger/longer team. It will free up more playing time for our younger guards like Payton and Romeo.

Ideally, I'd like Smart to return to the bench, unless we can trade him for good value. He is ideally a 6th man, not a starter. That is where he has provided us with the most value historically.

I would start:

Romeo
Fournier
Jaylen
Jayson
Rob

All 5 of those pass well enough that you don't need a PG in starting lineup IMO.  Great length and switchable defensive players.  You have two guys who can create their own shot if things break down (Jayson, Jaylen), maybe 3 (Fournier).  You have 3 plus outside shooters (J's and Fournier), you have a rim protector.  You have an emerging elite defensive wing (Romeo) who can handle the tougher assignments so as to free up Tatum and Brown more defensively.

Bench:

Smart
Pritchard
Nesmith
Horford

Smart will bring his great intensive defensive energy and playmaking leadership to the second unit.  Pritchard and Nesmith will be good scorers off the bench; it is reasonable to expect significant growth with a full off season, summer league, and overall growth.  Horford will provide additional perimeter shooting and excellent play-making.  This is a really strong second unit IMO. Better than any we had this past season by a long shot. 

That is a nine deep rotation that is really decent, a good mix of experience, length, scoring and defense.  That is a team that could compete against the remaining teams in this year's playoffs quite well. 

[gouki88]

C+ / B- for me. Dependent upon coaching hiring (someone who will use Horford well) and TT trade.

[Ogaju]

Romeo at PG seems desperate.

[BoulderMike]

I would start

Time Lord
Tatum
Nesmith
Brown
Smart

Bench:
Horford
Pritchard
Romeo
Fournier

Won’t be a banner year ... but it would be clear what to do with RW Smart before trade deadline ... and before we have to decide about a long-term deal.  We’d also determine if Nesmith is a long-term keeper.

Note: this assumes we can get TT to opt out (unlikely because teams willing and able to pay him $9.9 M is a very short list).

[Muzzy66]

I’m in the B range. It’s not a home run for sure but I like acquiring Horford. He’s a vet, he has the respect of both Jays, he plays the right way, and he can be a stabilizing presence on offense for the team. I don’t expect him to play big minutes but his off court contributions may outweigh his on court contributions.

Plus, we shave a year off of Kemba’s contract. Can we play in free agency sooner? Idk. Time will tell. We definitely still need a 3rd star to surround the Jays with to become a contender. I’m also surprised GBS made a trade without having a coach in place first

Not sure we do need a 3rd star.

Look how well Atlanta and Phoenix have done this season workout that 3rd star.  Milwaukee have also been consistentl to strong despite not really having any big name stars behind Giannis.

Meanwhile Brooklyn and Philly (with their star studded lineups) are both one loss away from elimination.

I think people get too drawn in to the glitz and glamour.  A star studded team like GS / LA win a title and everybody stars assuming that's the only way.  But then those star studded teams are always extremely top heavy, and sometimes all it takes is one key injury and the season is over. 

Sometimes I think it might be better to have one superstar, one all-star, and quality depth - that way when one man goes down you have a better chance of the next guy stepping up and less drop off.

I am a bit confused why say Philly has a star studded lineup and Bucks don't. 76ers have two players on there roster that are in their prime and have made all star games (obviously howard was an all star like 6 years ago). The bucks have 3 guys in their prime that all made all star team...

Edit: I thought Holiday made the all star game recently, I guess he has not. So I would still say they are the same. I think everyone in world would prefer Holiday over Harris.

Middleton and Holiday just aren't standout players, simple as that.  They're very good players but aren't stars.  Frankly I put them both at or slightly above Gordon Hayward level - - Hayward was a #4 option for us BEFORE Tatum and Brown broke out.

I've been watching Middleton play for years.  He's one of those guys who disappears for 2-3 games, then has one huge game changing performance, then disappears again.

Holiday is just that steady dependable guy that plays hard every night abd can be depended on to pull his weight.  Neither of them are glamorous #2 options on a team with championship aspirations, yet the Bucks have been exactly that on a yearly basis.

When people are out there saying things like "the Celtics need a 3rd star" I don't think Middleton and Holiday are generally the kind of names that are springing to their minds.

[Muzzy66]

What is up with all the people talking about Romeo being a starter?  The guy hasn't even proven himself as a reliable 15 MPG bench player and were taking about starting him?

At this point the kid hadn't even proven to me he belongs on an NBA court, and he's injured so often he makes Kemba Walker look like Karl Malone (durability wise).

If the success of this team is in any way dependant on Romeo Langford playing a significant and dependable role then we may as well dump half the team and retool right now.

[jambr380]

I haven't heard any reason why the trade couldn't have waited for the draft.  They clearly haven't had much time to vet draft prospects and they don't know who might drop to #16. 
Maybe a team like the Knicks gets desperate.  I think we needed to move Kemba but I don't think Horford, Brown and the cap relief moves the needle that much.  Now maybe there is another trade coming but for now I give it a C for the Celts. 

OKC on the other hand gets an A.  They got a 2025 1st and a good 2nd (Maledon) to take on Horford's contract and now they get the #16 getting rid of it.  I expect they'll flip Kemba for another 1st.  They now have 3 1sts in this draft which may include two top 5 picks if the Houston pick falls to 5th (48% chance).

I think people are jumping the gun assuming OKC will get another 1st flipping Kemba. Wouldn't the Cs just have done the same thing if they could have gained a 1st rather than lose one?

I guess that comes back to your first point, which I generally agree with. I wonder why it was so essential that we do the deal today. Was the relationship with Kemba so strained that it couldn't have waited until the draft? It also makes it so we can't trade our '22 draft pick should a star become available (unless we wait to consummate the deal on draft night).

I just wonder what teams like CHI, NYK, LAC might have considered in a Kemba trade. Maybe it wasn't worth the chance that no one would bite later on. What it tells me is that the Cs are terrified of Kemba's knee, which makes it much less likely OKC will get anything of value for him. Frankly, both Al and Kemba might be bought out after the 21-22 season.

[feckless]

I still think the trade was to get out of Kemba's contract and for Al's lockerroom presence. This team has no leader!  A bunch of talented individuals who want to beat the other team by themselves.  Al will enforce in the way KG did when he was with the Celtics.  I think Brad saw this and made the move quickly to bring Al's presence back into the team.

[vjcsmoke]

I'm giving it a B+.  What this trade tells me is that the Celtics feel that Kemba is COOKED.  They saved a lot in salary, giving up only a mid 1st, and also got a young prospect big in Moses as insurance for Rob Williams injury.  Also Horford is a good veteran big who we know can space the floor and play smart defense.  In year 2, the Celtics can easily move him as he's only owed 14m guaranteed.

[vjcsmoke]

I think you guys are missing the obvious here.  If Marcus Smart stays he slides over to starting PG with Peyton Pritchard as the backup point.

1. Smart
2. Brown
3. Nesmith
4. Tatum
5. Rob Williams

I was hopping Moses Brown could play the 4, but I've been told he isn't speedy enough, but the 4 position has been a weakness for the Celtics for a while now, to the point that we are often forced to play Tatum at the 4.  So right now I'd be forced to play Tatum at 4, and then give Nesmith a chance to show that his frenetic, high energy pace can pay off at the 3 spot.

[dark_lord]

C/C+

[Csfan1984]

What is up with all the people talking about Romeo being a starter?  The guy hasn't even proven himself as a reliable 15 MPG bench player and were taking about starting him?

At this point the kid hadn't even proven to me he belongs on an NBA court, and he's injured so often he makes Kemba Walker look like Karl Malone (durability wise).

If the success of this team is in any way dependant on Romeo Langford playing a significant and dependable role then we may as well dump half the team and retool right now.

I put him as starting SG as he adds to the defense and makes for a better rotation. Seeing I have Pritchard, Nesmith, Parker, TL our main bench in my lineup. Obviously if team resigns Fournier. Fournier should start. I would not have double bigs in my starting lineup.

[tonydelk]

C- for me.

Kemba was hurt a lot and I'm sure ownership is tired of giving money to Kyrie, Kemba, Hayward not to play.  So Kemba is moved for a 35 yr old Center nicknamed Average Al and everyone is excited.  2017 Al is not walking through that door.  I was surprised we needed to move the 16 pick for Al.  Thought a pick swap would be more then fair.

Unfortunately this is a money savings move for flexibility.  The team has no chance at a championship as constructed so they are breaking it down now to build it up in 2 years.  Next years team is not winning a title and if an injury to the j's happen it's going to be a lottery level team.  Tristen is the next to go and hopefully we can get a good bench piece for him.  The C's still need a PG and there is next to nothing the C's can get on the FA market.  The best option would have been drafting a rookie PG and letting them play this year.  Someone like Gidday who has good vision and size and can shoot.  Trading the 16 pick that pipedream is gone.  Only way to get a legit PG is via trade and unfortunately the C's no longer have assets to get deal done.  This is why this deal was not a good one IMO.  Marcus Smart is not a starting PG.  PP is not a starting PG.  The J's are not Point Forwards.  There are major holes on this team that can't be filled.  Even if they resign Fournier this team is still not a top team.  With a healthy Kemba they were a top team.  That was the issue.  Kemba broke down these last two years.  Hopefully the C's will learn that the little guy has a big heart but not great for today's NBA. 

[Silas]

C- for me.

Kemba was hurt a lot and I'm sure ownership is tired of giving money to Kyrie, Kemba, Hayward not to play.  So Kemba is moved for a 35 yr old Center nicknamed Average Al and everyone is excited.  2017 Al is not walking through that door.  I was surprised we needed to move the 16 pick for Al.  Thought a pick swap would be more then fair.

Unfortunately this is a money savings move for flexibility.  The team has no chance at a championship as constructed so they are breaking it down now to build it up in 2 years.  Next years team is not winning a title and if an injury to the j's happen it's going to be a lottery level team.  Tristen is the next to go and hopefully we can get a good bench piece for him.  The C's still need a PG and there is next to nothing the C's can get on the FA market.  The best option would have been drafting a rookie PG and letting them play this year.  Someone like Gidday who has good vision and size and can shoot.  Trading the 16 pick that pipedream is gone.  Only way to get a legit PG is via trade and unfortunately the C's no longer have assets to get deal done.  This is why this deal was not a good one IMO.  Marcus Smart is not a starting PG.  PP is not a starting PG.  The J's are not Point Forwards.  There are major holes on this team that can't be filled.  Even if they resign Fournier this team is still not a top team.  With a healthy Kemba they were a top team.  That was the issue.  Kemba broke down these last two years.  Hopefully the C's will learn that the little guy has a big heart but not great for today's NBA.

I don't think we know yet.  He has a way to go on D, no doubt, but plenty of starting PGs suck at defense and have to be protected.  Brad never gave Payton a real opportunity to run the offense.  We know he can shoot 3s and has a good to great handle.  His passing game is suspect at this stage.  I like his size and hustle and I think he has potential to be a good starting PG for the Cs.

[Who]

C- for me.

Kemba was hurt a lot and I'm sure ownership is tired of giving money to Kyrie, Kemba, Hayward not to play.  So Kemba is moved for a 35 yr old Center nicknamed Average Al and everyone is excited.  2017 Al is not walking through that door.  I was surprised we needed to move the 16 pick for Al.  Thought a pick swap would be more then fair.

Unfortunately this is a money savings move for flexibility.  The team has no chance at a championship as constructed so they are breaking it down now to build it up in 2 years.  Next years team is not winning a title and if an injury to the j's happen it's going to be a lottery level team.  Tristen is the next to go and hopefully we can get a good bench piece for him.  The C's still need a PG and there is next to nothing the C's can get on the FA market.  The best option would have been drafting a rookie PG and letting them play this year.  Someone like Gidday who has good vision and size and can shoot.  Trading the 16 pick that pipedream is gone.  Only way to get a legit PG is via trade and unfortunately the C's no longer have assets to get deal done.  This is why this deal was not a good one IMO.  Marcus Smart is not a starting PG.  PP is not a starting PG.  The J's are not Point Forwards.  There are major holes on this team that can't be filled.  Even if they resign Fournier this team is still not a top team.  With a healthy Kemba they were a top team.  That was the issue.  Kemba broke down these last two years.  Hopefully the C's will learn that the little guy has a big heart but not great for today's NBA.

I don't think we know yet.  He has a way to go on D, no doubt, but plenty of starting PGs suck at defense and have to be protected.  Brad never gave Payton a real opportunity to run the offense.  We know he can shoot 3s and has a good to great handle.  His passing game is suspect at this stage.  I like his size and hustle and I think he has potential to be a good starting PG for the Cs.

Me too. Plus Pritchard now has Horford's high post passing to help him. It is not all on the PG. It is not a PG-centric offense. It is a decentralized offense. Mixed creation from primary ball-handler (Pritchard or Smart), high post facilitator (Horford) and multiple secondary ball-handlers (Tatum, Jaylen, maybe Fournier if he stays, maybe some Smart at SG). So there will be far less responsibility on the PG than there was last season. More team-based passing.