Give me your top 18 players in the NBA

[gouki88]

1. Nikola Jokic
2. Giannis Antetokoumpo
3. Kevin Durant
4. Kawhi Leonard
5. LeBron James
6. James Harden
7. Joel Embiid
8. Steph Curry
9. Luka Doncic
10. Damian Lillard
11. Jayson Tatum
12. Rudy Gobert
13. Anthony Davis
14. Bradley Beal
15. Jimmy Butler
16. Paul George
17. Donovan Mitchell
18. Devin Booker

Taking into account recent performance and injury history, hence why LeBron and AD are lower than they traditionally are

Great list. Only flaw is listing GA number 2 (he isn't top 5 based on playoff performances) and neglecting Trae Young, who deserves over Butler or George IMO.

I don't think it's fair to punish Giannis based on his playoff performances because for the most part I don't think they're bad. The only one he really struggled in was against Toronto when Kawhi and Siakam were going at him.

I don't think I'm neglecting Trae. He just happens to be the worst defensive player in the league, and he's also quite an inefficient scorer. 6 good playoff games does not make him better than PG or Butler

I mean he's struggled mightily against the Heat in both the '20 and '21 playoffs, and he'll probably have another meh series against Brooklyn now that they've figured him out with defensive legends Blake Griffin, Nicolas Claxton, Kevin Durant and Bruce Brown.

I'm not sure he struggled mightily against Miami in 2021. He wasn't efficient at all, but his playmaking was really strong and he definitely cruised given they were sweeping. Spo is also a good defensive coach.

This series against Brooklyn is very telling though. However, he's been a mile better than their other max-ish contract players

[Somebody]

1. Nikola Jokic
2. Giannis Antetokoumpo
3. Kevin Durant
4. Kawhi Leonard
5. LeBron James
6. James Harden
7. Joel Embiid
8. Steph Curry
9. Luka Doncic
10. Damian Lillard
11. Jayson Tatum
12. Rudy Gobert
13. Anthony Davis
14. Bradley Beal
15. Jimmy Butler
16. Paul George
17. Donovan Mitchell
18. Devin Booker

Taking into account recent performance and injury history, hence why LeBron and AD are lower than they traditionally are

Great list. Only flaw is listing GA number 2 (he isn't top 5 based on playoff performances) and neglecting Trae Young, who deserves over Butler or George IMO.

I don't think it's fair to punish Giannis based on his playoff performances because for the most part I don't think they're bad. The only one he really struggled in was against Toronto when Kawhi and Siakam were going at him.

I don't think I'm neglecting Trae. He just happens to be the worst defensive player in the league, and he's also quite an inefficient scorer. 6 good playoff games does not make him better than PG or Butler

I mean he's struggled mightily against the Heat in both the '20 and '21 playoffs, and he'll probably have another meh series against Brooklyn now that they've figured him out with defensive legends Blake Griffin, Nicolas Claxton, Kevin Durant and Bruce Brown.

I'm not sure he struggled mightily against Miami in 2021. He wasn't efficient at all, but his playmaking was really strong and he definitely cruised given they were sweeping. Spo is also a good defensive coach.

This series against Brooklyn is very telling though. However, he's been a mile better than their other max-ish contract players

I mean a huge part of his game is that mega-volume scoring on sky-high efficiency, he's not a creation monster like Doncic/Harden/Chungus/LeBron, he's more in line with offensive centrepieces like Kawhi in shot creation estimates. Also his creation didn't improve THAT much against the Heat in 2021 (no box creation estimates available for the playoffs online for us broke people, but his assists per 36 was only around 1 more than what he averaged during the regular season), it certainly didn't even come close to making up for his massive scoring dip on horrid efficiency.

He also isn't helping those other max-ish contract players by going rogue and forcing those guys to score by making difficult shots over and over again. Also the whole thing about his two-way impact is that he's the heliocentric piece that you can build a viable playoff offence around with shooters and some on-ball talent while providing DPOY level defence, he's playing like a poor offensive #1A with minimal skills that allow him to play as a #1B or #2 effectively.

[Tr1boy]

Are Spyda and Dame pretty much the same guy?

Wish I could join in this topic but I doubt I'd bring anything new. Pretty much concur with most of what's already been posted.

Spyda is a better defender.  He just has that extra explosiveness/verticality to boost his game

They're both below average defenders. Lillard is a significantly better offensive player in about every way imaginable.

Come again?

Im sure you saw what Mitchell did tonight ... and its not just tonight but last season in playoffs, regular season

He was amazing tonight... solid D and offensive output. Clutch

[Jvalin]

Giannis is really amazing in a lot of ways but what he hasn't shown so far is the ability to take over games and will his team to victory.

Giannis is amazing in the open court. Problem is, most meaningful games are won in the half court. It ain't just the NBA playoffs. He can't even dominate in FIBA games against clearly inferior opponents. For instance, Brazil clogged the paint in the 2019 FIBA World Cup. Giannis fouled out while trying to force his way into the paint.

If the Bucks wanna maximize Giannis' impact, they'd better improve their 3P%. They shot 20% from 3 in game 1 and 29.6% in game 2. Still think they can pull an upset, especially if Harden comes back. To a large extent, Kyrie and Harden cancel each other out. They are both ball dominant guards who are below average defenders. Imo, the Nets are a more balanced team when one of them is sitting out.

Giannis reminds me of a poor man's David Robinson who can't scale down his attack on better and better teams without losing a ton of offensive value. People rightfully slam the Admiral's struggles against stronger defences with strong big men who can move their feet well (eg. Hakeem, Malone, etc) and waves of organised help that can swarm him, but they forget that Robinson killed teams with weaker defences during his prime (he eventually struggled against weaker defences in a primary role as he got older, eg. the 2000 playoffs when Duncan got injured, but prime Robinson didn't have such issues) in the playoffs. Granted Giannis has amazingly never faced a weak defence in his playoff career until this series against Brooklyn, but game 2 and the second half of game 1 indicate that it's possible for a team with average to solid defenders to shut him down even when he has a very good supporting cast around him (Robinson never had capable offensive weapons around him during his prime and was asked to shoulder an incredibly heavy offensive load that wasn't ideal for his skillset).

Imo, Giannis is definitely better than Robinson. Unlike Robinson, he can put the ball on the floor and create his own shot. He's also hands down the better passer. What I'd like him to do more, is work on his off ball game. Imagine him setting picks on the perimeter and then rolling hard to the basket. He'd be an unstoppable roller thanks to his length, strength and overall athleticism.

Both Giannis and Robinson are/were elite defenders. Robinson is 2 inches taller and probably a bit longer, hence he was a better post defender/rim protector. Giannis is more explosive, hence he's a better help defender. He operates like a free safety on D. Being long and uber athletic allows him to cover ground extremely quickly, almost instantly. It seems like he's everywhere at the same time on D. I would argue Giannis is the sole reason Brook Lopez was considered a DPOY candidate last season. If it weren't for him, there's zero chance BroLo would have been as effective in protecting the rim.

All that being said, I wasn't following the league when Robinson was playing. Chances are you are more familiar with his game than I am.

[gouki88]

Are Spyda and Dame pretty much the same guy?

Wish I could join in this topic but I doubt I'd bring anything new. Pretty much concur with most of what's already been posted.

Spyda is a better defender.  He just has that extra explosiveness/verticality to boost his game

They're both below average defenders. Lillard is a significantly better offensive player in about every way imaginable.

Come again?

Im sure you saw what Mitchell did tonight ... and its not just tonight but last season in playoffs, regular season

He was amazing tonight... solid D and offensive output. Clutch

Offensive explosion from shooting amazingly inside the arc but poorly from 3, coupled with mediocre defence. Also pretty insignificant passing display.

Not sure what point you think you're making. Lillard had a record breaking 55 point outing with 10 assists and 6 rebounds this very same post-season.

[Somebody]

Giannis is really amazing in a lot of ways but what he hasn't shown so far is the ability to take over games and will his team to victory.

Giannis is amazing in the open court. Problem is, most meaningful games are won in the half court. It ain't just the NBA playoffs. He can't even dominate in FIBA games against clearly inferior opponents. For instance, Brazil clogged the paint in the 2019 FIBA World Cup. Giannis fouled out while trying to force his way into the paint.

If the Bucks wanna maximize Giannis' impact, they'd better improve their 3P%. They shot 20% from 3 in game 1 and 29.6% in game 2. Still think they can pull an upset, especially if Harden comes back. To a large extent, Kyrie and Harden cancel each other out. They are both ball dominant guards who are below average defenders. Imo, the Nets are a more balanced team when one of them is sitting out.

Giannis reminds me of a poor man's David Robinson who can't scale down his attack on better and better teams without losing a ton of offensive value. People rightfully slam the Admiral's struggles against stronger defences with strong big men who can move their feet well (eg. Hakeem, Malone, etc) and waves of organised help that can swarm him, but they forget that Robinson killed teams with weaker defences during his prime (he eventually struggled against weaker defences in a primary role as he got older, eg. the 2000 playoffs when Duncan got injured, but prime Robinson didn't have such issues) in the playoffs. Granted Giannis has amazingly never faced a weak defence in his playoff career until this series against Brooklyn, but game 2 and the second half of game 1 indicate that it's possible for a team with average to solid defenders to shut him down even when he has a very good supporting cast around him (Robinson never had capable offensive weapons around him during his prime and was asked to shoulder an incredibly heavy offensive load that wasn't ideal for his skillset).

Imo, Giannis is definitely better than Robinson. Unlike Robinson, he can put the ball on the floor and create his own shot. He's also hands down the better passer. What I'd like him to do more, is work on his off ball game. Imagine him setting picks on the perimeter and then rolling hard to the basket. He'd be an unstoppable roller thanks to his length, strength and overall athleticism.

Both Giannis and Robinson are/were elite defenders. Robinson is 2 inches taller and probably a bit longer, hence he was a better post defender/rim protector. Giannis is more explosive, hence he's a better help defender. He operates like a free safety on D. Being long and uber athletic allows him to cover ground extremely quickly, almost instantly. It seems like he's everywhere at the same time on D. I would argue Giannis is the sole reason Brook Lopez was considered a DPOY candidate last season. If it weren't for him, there's zero chance BroLo would have been as effective in protecting the rim.

All that being said, I wasn't following the league when Robinson was playing. Chances are you are more familiar with his game than I am.

Okay I didn't follow the league when Robinson was playing, but there's plenty of tape and film analysis videos on him that can give people a pretty good idea of his skillset back then.

And Giannis' superior handle in the open court is cool, but as you said it's not a very good weapon in the halfcourt against set playoff defences that scheme against him - they can wall him off and he doesn't have any counters to that: he can't spin away from his man in the paint because his spin move after getting walled off in the paint is comparable to my grandmother pivoting in the kitchen in terms of speed, he is horrid at protecting the ball whenever he stops and picks up his dribble after a failed drive attempt, he can't punish defenders for sagging off of him to form a wall in the paint with his lack of shooting ability and he can't even take advantage of the fouls he draws because his free throw shooting has regressed to the 50s (obviously he shot 68.5% in the RS, but he's been shooting 56.5% in his past 15 playoff games).

Meanwhile the video I hyperlinked above shows that while Robinson also crumbles against elite defences, his hybrid face/post-up game has some counters (eg. a spin move, mini-Euro, quality midrange shot, etc) that makes him very difficult to stop if a team doesn't have the right type of defender guarding him in his prime (eg. Malone, Hakeem, strong big men who can also slide their feet) with quality help swarming him. The first half of game 1 aside, Giannis has been pretty much stifled by the likes of Blake Griffin, Nicolas Claxton, Kevin Durant and the occasional Bruce Brown in his first playoff series against a below average defence in his career.

Obviously Giannis has a significant playmaking advantage due to the era he's playing in now, but Robinson was a pretty good passer himself - his passing is actually pretty similar to Giannis' (can make some really nice reads if he can survey the court, little to no manipulation of defences with ball fakes/look-aways/etc). I do think that what Giannis does in the regular season far surpasses what Robinson was ever capable of in his era, but if 2020 and 2021 is his true offensive impact against playoff defences then I think it's a much closer debate. Remember that Robinson can do all you wish Giannis can do off-ball at a very high level while Giannis looked pretty lost the few times the Bucks used him as a roll man against the Nets, which gives Robinson a pretty nice value-add in a head to head comparison.

[Jvalin]

Giannis is really amazing in a lot of ways but what he hasn't shown so far is the ability to take over games and will his team to victory.

Giannis is amazing in the open court. Problem is, most meaningful games are won in the half court. It ain't just the NBA playoffs. He can't even dominate in FIBA games against clearly inferior opponents. For instance, Brazil clogged the paint in the 2019 FIBA World Cup. Giannis fouled out while trying to force his way into the paint.

If the Bucks wanna maximize Giannis' impact, they'd better improve their 3P%. They shot 20% from 3 in game 1 and 29.6% in game 2. Still think they can pull an upset, especially if Harden comes back. To a large extent, Kyrie and Harden cancel each other out. They are both ball dominant guards who are below average defenders. Imo, the Nets are a more balanced team when one of them is sitting out.

Giannis reminds me of a poor man's David Robinson who can't scale down his attack on better and better teams without losing a ton of offensive value. People rightfully slam the Admiral's struggles against stronger defences with strong big men who can move their feet well (eg. Hakeem, Malone, etc) and waves of organised help that can swarm him, but they forget that Robinson killed teams with weaker defences during his prime (he eventually struggled against weaker defences in a primary role as he got older, eg. the 2000 playoffs when Duncan got injured, but prime Robinson didn't have such issues) in the playoffs. Granted Giannis has amazingly never faced a weak defence in his playoff career until this series against Brooklyn, but game 2 and the second half of game 1 indicate that it's possible for a team with average to solid defenders to shut him down even when he has a very good supporting cast around him (Robinson never had capable offensive weapons around him during his prime and was asked to shoulder an incredibly heavy offensive load that wasn't ideal for his skillset).

Imo, Giannis is definitely better than Robinson. Unlike Robinson, he can put the ball on the floor and create his own shot. He's also hands down the better passer. What I'd like him to do more, is work on his off ball game. Imagine him setting picks on the perimeter and then rolling hard to the basket. He'd be an unstoppable roller thanks to his length, strength and overall athleticism.

Both Giannis and Robinson are/were elite defenders. Robinson is 2 inches taller and probably a bit longer, hence he was a better post defender/rim protector. Giannis is more explosive, hence he's a better help defender. He operates like a free safety on D. Being long and uber athletic allows him to cover ground extremely quickly, almost instantly. It seems like he's everywhere at the same time on D. I would argue Giannis is the sole reason Brook Lopez was considered a DPOY candidate last season. If it weren't for him, there's zero chance BroLo would have been as effective in protecting the rim.

All that being said, I wasn't following the league when Robinson was playing. Chances are you are more familiar with his game than I am.

Okay I didn't follow the league when Robinson was playing, but there's plenty of tape and film analysis videos on him that can give people a pretty good idea of his skillset back then.

And Giannis' superior handle in the open court is cool, but as you said it's not a very good weapon in the halfcourt against set playoff defences that scheme against him - they can wall him off and he doesn't have any counters to that: he can't spin away from his man in the paint because his spin move after getting walled off in the paint is comparable to my grandmother pivoting in the kitchen in terms of speed, he is horrid at protecting the ball whenever he stops and picks up his dribble after a failed drive attempt, he can't punish defenders for sagging off of him to form a wall in the paint with his lack of shooting ability and he can't even take advantage of the fouls he draws because his free throw shooting has regressed to the 50s (obviously he shot 68.5% in the RS, but he's been shooting 56.5% in his past 15 playoff games).

Meanwhile the video I hyperlinked above shows that while Robinson also crumbles against elite defences, his hybrid face/post-up game has some counters (eg. a spin move, mini-Euro, quality midrange shot, etc) that makes him very difficult to stop if a team doesn't have the right type of defender guarding him in his prime (eg. Malone, Hakeem, strong big men who can also slide their feet) with quality help swarming him. The first half of game 1 aside, Giannis has been pretty much stifled by the likes of Blake Griffin, Nicolas Claxton, Kevin Durant and the occasional Bruce Brown in his first playoff series against a below average defence in his career.

Obviously Giannis has a significant playmaking advantage due to the era he's playing in now, but Robinson was a pretty good passer himself - his passing is actually pretty similar to Giannis' (can make some really nice reads if he can survey the court, little to no manipulation of defences with ball fakes/look-aways/etc). I do think that what Giannis does in the regular season far surpasses what Robinson was ever capable of in his era, but if 2020 and 2021 is his true offensive impact against playoff defences then I think it's a much closer debate. Remember that Robinson can do all you wish Giannis can do off-ball at a very high level while Giannis looked pretty lost the few times the Bucks used him as a roll man against the Nets, which gives Robinson a pretty nice value-add in a head to head comparison.

The way I see it, shot creators are hands down the most valuable players in basketball. Giannis is better at creating his own shot cause he can put the ball on the floor. He's also better at creating shots for his teammates. This is why I rank him over Robinson.

If you surround Giannis with 4 elite shooters, he's unstoppable. You cannot stop him 1-on-1. You cannot send a double team either cause he'll find the open man. Obviously, elite shooters are hard to find. For instance, Jrue is an amazing 2-way player, yet he ain't an ideal fit next to Giannis. This is 100% Giannis' problem because of his limitations, not Jrue's problem.

Let me put it this way: In a vacuum, imo Giannis > Robinson. You said it yourself: "what Giannis does in the regular season far surpasses what Robinson was ever capable of in his era". That said, it's easier to build a team around Robinson.

P.S. Can't watch the videos right now cause I'm on the road. I'll watch them later though.

[Somebody]

Giannis is really amazing in a lot of ways but what he hasn't shown so far is the ability to take over games and will his team to victory.

Giannis is amazing in the open court. Problem is, most meaningful games are won in the half court. It ain't just the NBA playoffs. He can't even dominate in FIBA games against clearly inferior opponents. For instance, Brazil clogged the paint in the 2019 FIBA World Cup. Giannis fouled out while trying to force his way into the paint.

If the Bucks wanna maximize Giannis' impact, they'd better improve their 3P%. They shot 20% from 3 in game 1 and 29.6% in game 2. Still think they can pull an upset, especially if Harden comes back. To a large extent, Kyrie and Harden cancel each other out. They are both ball dominant guards who are below average defenders. Imo, the Nets are a more balanced team when one of them is sitting out.

Giannis reminds me of a poor man's David Robinson who can't scale down his attack on better and better teams without losing a ton of offensive value. People rightfully slam the Admiral's struggles against stronger defences with strong big men who can move their feet well (eg. Hakeem, Malone, etc) and waves of organised help that can swarm him, but they forget that Robinson killed teams with weaker defences during his prime (he eventually struggled against weaker defences in a primary role as he got older, eg. the 2000 playoffs when Duncan got injured, but prime Robinson didn't have such issues) in the playoffs. Granted Giannis has amazingly never faced a weak defence in his playoff career until this series against Brooklyn, but game 2 and the second half of game 1 indicate that it's possible for a team with average to solid defenders to shut him down even when he has a very good supporting cast around him (Robinson never had capable offensive weapons around him during his prime and was asked to shoulder an incredibly heavy offensive load that wasn't ideal for his skillset).

Imo, Giannis is definitely better than Robinson. Unlike Robinson, he can put the ball on the floor and create his own shot. He's also hands down the better passer. What I'd like him to do more, is work on his off ball game. Imagine him setting picks on the perimeter and then rolling hard to the basket. He'd be an unstoppable roller thanks to his length, strength and overall athleticism.

Both Giannis and Robinson are/were elite defenders. Robinson is 2 inches taller and probably a bit longer, hence he was a better post defender/rim protector. Giannis is more explosive, hence he's a better help defender. He operates like a free safety on D. Being long and uber athletic allows him to cover ground extremely quickly, almost instantly. It seems like he's everywhere at the same time on D. I would argue Giannis is the sole reason Brook Lopez was considered a DPOY candidate last season. If it weren't for him, there's zero chance BroLo would have been as effective in protecting the rim.

All that being said, I wasn't following the league when Robinson was playing. Chances are you are more familiar with his game than I am.

Okay I didn't follow the league when Robinson was playing, but there's plenty of tape and film analysis videos on him that can give people a pretty good idea of his skillset back then.

And Giannis' superior handle in the open court is cool, but as you said it's not a very good weapon in the halfcourt against set playoff defences that scheme against him - they can wall him off and he doesn't have any counters to that: he can't spin away from his man in the paint because his spin move after getting walled off in the paint is comparable to my grandmother pivoting in the kitchen in terms of speed, he is horrid at protecting the ball whenever he stops and picks up his dribble after a failed drive attempt, he can't punish defenders for sagging off of him to form a wall in the paint with his lack of shooting ability and he can't even take advantage of the fouls he draws because his free throw shooting has regressed to the 50s (obviously he shot 68.5% in the RS, but he's been shooting 56.5% in his past 15 playoff games).

Meanwhile the video I hyperlinked above shows that while Robinson also crumbles against elite defences, his hybrid face/post-up game has some counters (eg. a spin move, mini-Euro, quality midrange shot, etc) that makes him very difficult to stop if a team doesn't have the right type of defender guarding him in his prime (eg. Malone, Hakeem, strong big men who can also slide their feet) with quality help swarming him. The first half of game 1 aside, Giannis has been pretty much stifled by the likes of Blake Griffin, Nicolas Claxton, Kevin Durant and the occasional Bruce Brown in his first playoff series against a below average defence in his career.

Obviously Giannis has a significant playmaking advantage due to the era he's playing in now, but Robinson was a pretty good passer himself - his passing is actually pretty similar to Giannis' (can make some really nice reads if he can survey the court, little to no manipulation of defences with ball fakes/look-aways/etc). I do think that what Giannis does in the regular season far surpasses what Robinson was ever capable of in his era, but if 2020 and 2021 is his true offensive impact against playoff defences then I think it's a much closer debate. Remember that Robinson can do all you wish Giannis can do off-ball at a very high level while Giannis looked pretty lost the few times the Bucks used him as a roll man against the Nets, which gives Robinson a pretty nice value-add in a head to head comparison.

The way I see it, shot creators are hands down the most valuable players in basketball. Giannis is better at creating his own shot cause he can put the ball on the floor. He's also better at creating shots for his teammates. This is why I rank him over Robinson.

If you surround Giannis with 4 elite shooters, he's unstoppable. You cannot stop him 1-on-1. You cannot send a double team either cause he'll find the open man. Obviously, elite shooters are hard to find. For instance, Jrue is an amazing 2-way player, yet he ain't an ideal fit next to Giannis. This is 100% Giannis' problem because of his limitations, not Jrue's problem.

Let me put it this way: In a vacuum, imo Giannis > Robinson. You said it yourself: "what Giannis does in the regular season far surpasses what Robinson was ever capable of in his era". That said, it's easier to build a team around Robinson.

P.S. Can't watch the videos right now cause I'm on the road. I'll watch them later though.

Giannis is not better at creating his own shot though? I just wrote a whole wall of text detailing why that it isn't the case come playoff time. And to be fair I was talking about the hypothetical that his more recent series against the Heat and the Nets being the norm for him going forward (FWIW only the 2020 Heat were a really strong defence), which makes their scoring/creation splits much more closer. I absolutely realise that this is a minuscule sample size as well as the fact that he mauled the Magic in 2020 before running into the Heat wall, but what the Heat and Nets have done (especially the latter after the first half of game 1) isn't exactly something that's impossible to replicate for most playoff teams going forward.

I disagree (my post above details why I think he's very much stoppable 1 on 1 even with 4 elite shooters around him), also Jrue has been pretty good from three this season by averaging 39.2% on 4.8 attempts per game (obviously his shooting has cratered this playoffs, but everyone on the Bucks have also done the same).

I also think that it's pretty clear that Giannis can't really replicate his regular season numbers against playoff defences that scheme against him at this point, but from what I've seen this iteration of Giannis looks poised to have an even worse dropoff than the Admiral had in back in the 90s.

Anyways, I hope you'll like those videos!

[Jvalin]

Giannis is really amazing in a lot of ways but what he hasn't shown so far is the ability to take over games and will his team to victory.

Giannis is amazing in the open court. Problem is, most meaningful games are won in the half court. It ain't just the NBA playoffs. He can't even dominate in FIBA games against clearly inferior opponents. For instance, Brazil clogged the paint in the 2019 FIBA World Cup. Giannis fouled out while trying to force his way into the paint.

If the Bucks wanna maximize Giannis' impact, they'd better improve their 3P%. They shot 20% from 3 in game 1 and 29.6% in game 2. Still think they can pull an upset, especially if Harden comes back. To a large extent, Kyrie and Harden cancel each other out. They are both ball dominant guards who are below average defenders. Imo, the Nets are a more balanced team when one of them is sitting out.

Giannis reminds me of a poor man's David Robinson who can't scale down his attack on better and better teams without losing a ton of offensive value. People rightfully slam the Admiral's struggles against stronger defences with strong big men who can move their feet well (eg. Hakeem, Malone, etc) and waves of organised help that can swarm him, but they forget that Robinson killed teams with weaker defences during his prime (he eventually struggled against weaker defences in a primary role as he got older, eg. the 2000 playoffs when Duncan got injured, but prime Robinson didn't have such issues) in the playoffs. Granted Giannis has amazingly never faced a weak defence in his playoff career until this series against Brooklyn, but game 2 and the second half of game 1 indicate that it's possible for a team with average to solid defenders to shut him down even when he has a very good supporting cast around him (Robinson never had capable offensive weapons around him during his prime and was asked to shoulder an incredibly heavy offensive load that wasn't ideal for his skillset).

Imo, Giannis is definitely better than Robinson. Unlike Robinson, he can put the ball on the floor and create his own shot. He's also hands down the better passer. What I'd like him to do more, is work on his off ball game. Imagine him setting picks on the perimeter and then rolling hard to the basket. He'd be an unstoppable roller thanks to his length, strength and overall athleticism.

Both Giannis and Robinson are/were elite defenders. Robinson is 2 inches taller and probably a bit longer, hence he was a better post defender/rim protector. Giannis is more explosive, hence he's a better help defender. He operates like a free safety on D. Being long and uber athletic allows him to cover ground extremely quickly, almost instantly. It seems like he's everywhere at the same time on D. I would argue Giannis is the sole reason Brook Lopez was considered a DPOY candidate last season. If it weren't for him, there's zero chance BroLo would have been as effective in protecting the rim.

All that being said, I wasn't following the league when Robinson was playing. Chances are you are more familiar with his game than I am.

Okay I didn't follow the league when Robinson was playing, but there's plenty of tape and film analysis videos on him that can give people a pretty good idea of his skillset back then.

And Giannis' superior handle in the open court is cool, but as you said it's not a very good weapon in the halfcourt against set playoff defences that scheme against him - they can wall him off and he doesn't have any counters to that: he can't spin away from his man in the paint because his spin move after getting walled off in the paint is comparable to my grandmother pivoting in the kitchen in terms of speed, he is horrid at protecting the ball whenever he stops and picks up his dribble after a failed drive attempt, he can't punish defenders for sagging off of him to form a wall in the paint with his lack of shooting ability and he can't even take advantage of the fouls he draws because his free throw shooting has regressed to the 50s (obviously he shot 68.5% in the RS, but he's been shooting 56.5% in his past 15 playoff games).

Meanwhile the video I hyperlinked above shows that while Robinson also crumbles against elite defences, his hybrid face/post-up game has some counters (eg. a spin move, mini-Euro, quality midrange shot, etc) that makes him very difficult to stop if a team doesn't have the right type of defender guarding him in his prime (eg. Malone, Hakeem, strong big men who can also slide their feet) with quality help swarming him. The first half of game 1 aside, Giannis has been pretty much stifled by the likes of Blake Griffin, Nicolas Claxton, Kevin Durant and the occasional Bruce Brown in his first playoff series against a below average defence in his career.

Obviously Giannis has a significant playmaking advantage due to the era he's playing in now, but Robinson was a pretty good passer himself - his passing is actually pretty similar to Giannis' (can make some really nice reads if he can survey the court, little to no manipulation of defences with ball fakes/look-aways/etc). I do think that what Giannis does in the regular season far surpasses what Robinson was ever capable of in his era, but if 2020 and 2021 is his true offensive impact against playoff defences then I think it's a much closer debate. Remember that Robinson can do all you wish Giannis can do off-ball at a very high level while Giannis looked pretty lost the few times the Bucks used him as a roll man against the Nets, which gives Robinson a pretty nice value-add in a head to head comparison.

The way I see it, shot creators are hands down the most valuable players in basketball. Giannis is better at creating his own shot cause he can put the ball on the floor. He's also better at creating shots for his teammates. This is why I rank him over Robinson.

If you surround Giannis with 4 elite shooters, he's unstoppable. You cannot stop him 1-on-1. You cannot send a double team either cause he'll find the open man. Obviously, elite shooters are hard to find. For instance, Jrue is an amazing 2-way player, yet he ain't an ideal fit next to Giannis. This is 100% Giannis' problem because of his limitations, not Jrue's problem.

Let me put it this way: In a vacuum, imo Giannis > Robinson. You said it yourself: "what Giannis does in the regular season far surpasses what Robinson was ever capable of in his era". That said, it's easier to build a team around Robinson.

P.S. Can't watch the videos right now cause I'm on the road. I'll watch them later though.

Giannis is not better at creating his own shot though? I just wrote a whole wall of text detailing why that it isn't the case come playoff time. And to be fair I was talking about the hypothetical that his more recent series against the Heat and the Nets being the norm for him going forward (FWIW only the 2020 Heat were a really strong defence), which makes their scoring/creation splits much more closer. I absolutely realise that this is a minuscule sample size as well as the fact that he mauled the Magic in 2020 before running into the Heat wall, but what the Heat and Nets have done (especially the latter after the first half of game 1) isn't exactly something that's impossible to replicate for most playoff teams going forward.

I disagree (my post above details why I think he's very much stoppable 1 on 1 even with 4 elite shooters around him), also Jrue has been pretty good from three this season by averaging 39.2% on 4.8 attempts per game (obviously his shooting has cratered this playoffs, but everyone on the Bucks have also done the same).

I also think that it's pretty clear that Giannis can't really replicate his regular season numbers against playoff defences that scheme against him at this point, but from what I've seen this iteration of Giannis looks poised to have an even worse dropoff than the Admiral had in back in the 90s.

Anyways, I hope you'll like those videos!

Jrue is a 35.8% 3pt shooter for his career. He's shooting 39.2% from 3 this season cause he gets tons of open looks playing next to Giannis. The same goes for Portis. He's a 38% career 3pt shooter, yet he shoots 47.1% (!) from 3 this year next to Giannis. Likewise, Forbes seems like the next Steph Curry shooting 45.2% from 3 whereas his career average is 41.2%. An other example is Malcolm Brogdon. He was a 50-40-90 guy alongside Giannis. He plummeted to 32.6% from 3 when he joined the Pacers. There are plenty of examples like these. Let's call it the Giannis effect. 

Agree to disagree on shot creation. Unlike Robinson, Giannis can put the ball on the floor. This makes a huge difference. He ain't necessarily relying on his teammates to feed him the ball in the paint. He's also a better passer. Shot creation ain't just about creating your own shots. It's about creating shots for your teammates as well. You want an example? Tatum is a shot creator. Brown is mostly a scorer (although he's making great strides in developing his court vision).

Obviously, we agree on Giannis' struggles in the half court. This is how  our whole conversation started. I ain't responding to these points, only because I completely agree with you.

[Moranis]

Giannis is better than Robinson ever was and Giannis may not even be at his peak yet.  He is a better defender.  He is a better rebounder.  He is a much better passer.  He is a far more efficient scorer (career TS .600 to .583, but Giannis' peak is much higher and he will only expand that gap over the next several years).  Like Giannis, Robinson also took a hit in the playoffs.  Even the year they made the WCF, Robinson's stats were down across the board in the playoffs.  And as good as Robinson's 3 year peak when he was age 28-30 was, I'd still take Giannis over the last 3 years and Giannis hasn't even theoretically reached his peak yet.  Frankly, I don't think it is all that close either.  Giannis is better than Robinson. 

Now there are certainly some similarities but that mostly stems from them just being on teams not good enough.  Middleton quite simply isn't good enough.  I listed my top 25 players earlier in this thread and Middleton (nor Holiday) made it.  I think there is a pretty good argument neither would be in my top 30 either as I didn't have Brown, Simmons, Morant, Murray, LaVine, Randle, Ingram, Adebayo, K. Thompson, Siakam, Westbrook, McCollum, or up and comers like Ayton, SGA, Porter in my top 25 either.   

You need the top 5 player, but that guy can't be on an island all alone, and Giannis has been all alone (think Lebron in his first Cleveland stint).  Again I thought adding Holiday would make a difference, but 2 games into this series he hasn't because Middleton has been a disaster.  It is apparent that Middleton just isn't good enough.

[Tr1boy]

Are Spyda and Dame pretty much the same guy?

Wish I could join in this topic but I doubt I'd bring anything new. Pretty much concur with most of what's already been posted.

Spyda is a better defender.  He just has that extra explosiveness/verticality to boost his game

They're both below average defenders. Lillard is a significantly better offensive player in about every way imaginable.

Come again?

Im sure you saw what Mitchell did tonight ... and its not just tonight but last season in playoffs, regular season

He was amazing tonight... solid D and offensive output. Clutch

Offensive explosion from shooting amazingly inside the arc but poorly from 3, coupled with mediocre defence. Also pretty insignificant passing display.

Not sure what point you think you're making. Lillard had a record breaking 55 point outing with 10 assists and 6 rebounds this very same post-season.

No discount on Lillard...

But you are nitpicking on who has higher stat number by the margin

Mitchell gets a secondary assist or hunts a primary assist.... Utah is not about that life. 

Rebounds the same. There is Gobert for that

Look at the impact at the end of the day.  Not just how many points a player scored

Leonard barely scores 40 plus games.  He doesnt nail triple doubles. So is Lillard or Harden or Westbrook ahead of him?? No

[Somebody]

And another sub 50% TS stinker with 4 TOs from Giannis so far as he reverted to braindead ball after a hot start against legendary frontcourt defenders...but Middleton isn't good enough amirite

[footey]

Kevin Durant is number 1.

That’s a fact.

[Somebody]

And another sub 50% TS stinker with 4 TOs from Giannis so far as he reverted to braindead ball after a hot start against legendary frontcourt defenders...but Middleton isn't good enough amirite

So...the guy who isn't good enough had 35 on over 60% TS while the lad who needs more help had a woefully inefficient 33 on 47.2% TS. And did I mention that the former came up huge in the clutch while the latter kept on chucking fadeaways and shots that were above his skill level?