Author Topic: NBA Playoffs 2021  (Read 402730 times)

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Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #3105 on: July 05, 2021, 12:27:10 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Crazy year. Of the Final 4 teams, with Giannis and Kawhi missing all or some games, who was the best player left playing and how does that player rank as top players?

CP3 at maybe top 25-30?
Is Paul George top 20 good?
Is Booker?
Is Trae?

This "Covid Era" of the NBA has thrown conventional rules about who wins titles out the window except one....health. The healthiest teams seem to be the best in this Era. At least for this year, so much for the idea that you need a top 5 player to win it all. You just had to be good AND healthy.

Sadly for the Celtics, like other teams that played a long time in the bubble, they were far from healthy.
It was never about stacking up on conventional top 5 players (there are like 10-11 of them in the league right now so it's really not only 5 guys) - it was always about assembling the best team, and you can achieve that without that level of player.

My eleven superstars (in order of position):

Guards: Curry, Doncic, Harden, Lillard
Wings: Durant, Leonard, Antetokounmpo, James
Bigs: Jokic, Embiid, Davis

But honestly Young, Paul, Mitchell, Beal, Butler, George, Tatum and Towns are also guys who can lead a team on the offensive end. The NBA is incredibly talented. Injuries unfortunately have had a big impact this year (even moreso than before), still there's a lot of parity right now.

And for the near future I believe the combo of Tatum/Brown can be sufficient to win a title when there's more defined roles, cohesion, teamplay and less injuries than we saw this season.
Kinda what I was leading into. That having those stars is less important than team quality, especially as the league is trending more to parity. So, yeah, a Tatum-Brown centric team can win it all. And soon, if the team is built right.
or it is just a weird year creating an abnormal number of injuries and isn't able to be duplicated.  I mean the Heat went to the finals last year and got swept in the 1st round. Boston was in the ecf and out in a non competitive 1st round series. 

And if Giannis plays and Milwaukee wins, the champion will fall right in line with history yet again.

So what if Giannis wins? The point is that right now, there are no truly dominant players, with the possible exception of Kevin Durant, and he has perhaps a 2 year window and some very talented but also very sketchy co-stars.

Tatum and Brown will be better next year, and they are both already at a stage where they are able to play big against anyone. LeBron may not be over yet, but the LeBron age is over.
If the Bucks win with Giannis, then the Bucks fall perfectly in line with basically all but 3 champions in history i.e. they have a top 5 player on their team.  If the Suns win, they would become just the 4th team in history to win a title without a top 5 player.  They happen every so often.  The last time was the 14 Spurs, but that was a team with 4 HOFers in various stages of their careers (TD, Manu, Parker, Kawhi) plus one of the greatest coaches in history.  Before the Spurs it was the 04 Pistons.  Before them it was the 79 Sonics.  That is it at least imo, some might argue the 78 Bullets or the 11 Mavericks, though I've always felt Hayes and Dirk were top 5 players those seasons.  That's it.  Every other champion had an unquestioned top 5 player and many had more than 1. 

I'm just not going to put much historical stock in the last 2 seasons.  The bubble was just weird, with the huge break and no home court.  And this year was a shortened season with less time off between games and a shortened off season, which has lead to BY FAR the most stars being injured and missing playoff games.  Even some that didn't miss games have been hampered (including Paul).  I just don't think you can read anything into these past two seasons.  Now if next year is a more typical season with significantly less star injuries in the playoffs and we still see a team like the Suns make the Finals, then maybe we can start talking about new trends and how things are different.

What are your criteria for who is a top 5 player and who isn't?

If we look at the top 5 finishers in the MVP voting this season, they are:

Jokic
Embiid
Curry
Giannis
CP3

So, based on that alone, the Suns have a top 5 player, plus a young star in Booker and a young developing star in Ayton. So wouldn't the Suns also fulfill that criteria and then some?
MVP voting is rarely about who the best player is.  If it was Lebron would have at least 10 MVP's.  As such, it isn't a great measure of who the 5 best players actually are.  Now there is certainly some subjectivity in it, but I think most people generally regard Giannis, Durant, Lebron, and Kawhi as the 4 best players in the league.  The 5th spot is certainly up for debate and I think you could make reasonable arguments that any of Jokic, Embiid, Curry, Harden, Davis, or Doncic is the 5th best player in the world.  No one would put Chris Paul in that category.  He had a wonderful season and deserved the MVP votes, but he isn't a top 5 player in the world just as IT4 wasn't when he finished in the top 5 for Boston a few years back either.  Almost every year there are players that finish in the top 5, that basically no one would actually consider a top 5 player.  Heck, some of them have actually won the award like say Russell Westbrook. 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

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Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #3106 on: July 05, 2021, 09:35:44 AM »

Offline Surferdad

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Any thoughts about the Beverly shoving incident?  I didn't watch the game but saw the clip.  It didn't even look like CP3 said anything to him.  IMO, it was a straight out punk move by a sore loser.

Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #3107 on: July 06, 2021, 12:16:25 AM »

Kiorrik

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Any thoughts about the Beverly shoving incident?  I didn't watch the game but saw the clip.  It didn't even look like CP3 said anything to him.  IMO, it was a straight out punk move by a sore loser.

Pretty sure that's the consensus amongst everyone :)

Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #3108 on: July 06, 2021, 12:43:49 AM »

Offline celticsclay

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Crazy year. Of the Final 4 teams, with Giannis and Kawhi missing all or some games, who was the best player left playing and how does that player rank as top players?

CP3 at maybe top 25-30?
Is Paul George top 20 good?
Is Booker?
Is Trae?

This "Covid Era" of the NBA has thrown conventional rules about who wins titles out the window except one....health. The healthiest teams seem to be the best in this Era. At least for this year, so much for the idea that you need a top 5 player to win it all. You just had to be good AND healthy.

Sadly for the Celtics, like other teams that played a long time in the bubble, they were far from healthy.
It was never about stacking up on conventional top 5 players (there are like 10-11 of them in the league right now so it's really not only 5 guys) - it was always about assembling the best team, and you can achieve that without that level of player.

My eleven superstars (in order of position):

Guards: Curry, Doncic, Harden, Lillard
Wings: Durant, Leonard, Antetokounmpo, James
Bigs: Jokic, Embiid, Davis

But honestly Young, Paul, Mitchell, Beal, Butler, George, Tatum and Towns are also guys who can lead a team on the offensive end. The NBA is incredibly talented. Injuries unfortunately have had a big impact this year (even moreso than before), still there's a lot of parity right now.

And for the near future I believe the combo of Tatum/Brown can be sufficient to win a title when there's more defined roles, cohesion, teamplay and less injuries than we saw this season.
Kinda what I was leading into. That having those stars is less important than team quality, especially as the league is trending more to parity. So, yeah, a Tatum-Brown centric team can win it all. And soon, if the team is built right.
or it is just a weird year creating an abnormal number of injuries and isn't able to be duplicated.  I mean the Heat went to the finals last year and got swept in the 1st round. Boston was in the ecf and out in a non competitive 1st round series. 

And if Giannis plays and Milwaukee wins, the champion will fall right in line with history yet again.

So what if Giannis wins? The point is that right now, there are no truly dominant players, with the possible exception of Kevin Durant, and he has perhaps a 2 year window and some very talented but also very sketchy co-stars.

Tatum and Brown will be better next year, and they are both already at a stage where they are able to play big against anyone. LeBron may not be over yet, but the LeBron age is over.
If the Bucks win with Giannis, then the Bucks fall perfectly in line with basically all but 3 champions in history i.e. they have a top 5 player on their team.  If the Suns win, they would become just the 4th team in history to win a title without a top 5 player.  They happen every so often.  The last time was the 14 Spurs, but that was a team with 4 HOFers in various stages of their careers (TD, Manu, Parker, Kawhi) plus one of the greatest coaches in history.  Before the Spurs it was the 04 Pistons.  Before them it was the 79 Sonics.  That is it at least imo, some might argue the 78 Bullets or the 11 Mavericks, though I've always felt Hayes and Dirk were top 5 players those seasons.  That's it.  Every other champion had an unquestioned top 5 player and many had more than 1. 

I'm just not going to put much historical stock in the last 2 seasons.  The bubble was just weird, with the huge break and no home court.  And this year was a shortened season with less time off between games and a shortened off season, which has lead to BY FAR the most stars being injured and missing playoff games.  Even some that didn't miss games have been hampered (including Paul).  I just don't think you can read anything into these past two seasons.  Now if next year is a more typical season with significantly less star injuries in the playoffs and we still see a team like the Suns make the Finals, then maybe we can start talking about new trends and how things are different.

What are your criteria for who is a top 5 player and who isn't?

If we look at the top 5 finishers in the MVP voting this season, they are:

Jokic
Embiid
Curry
Giannis
CP3

So, based on that alone, the Suns have a top 5 player, plus a young star in Booker and a young developing star in Ayton. So wouldn't the Suns also fulfill that criteria and then some?
MVP voting is rarely about who the best player is.  If it was Lebron would have at least 10 MVP's.  As such, it isn't a great measure of who the 5 best players actually are.  Now there is certainly some subjectivity in it, but I think most people generally regard Giannis, Durant, Lebron, and Kawhi as the 4 best players in the league.  The 5th spot is certainly up for debate and I think you could make reasonable arguments that any of Jokic, Embiid, Curry, Harden, Davis, or Doncic is the 5th best player in the world.  No one would put Chris Paul in that category.  He had a wonderful season and deserved the MVP votes, but he isn't a top 5 player in the world just as IT4 wasn't when he finished in the top 5 for Boston a few years back either.  Almost every year there are players that finish in the top 5, that basically no one would actually consider a top 5 player.  Heck, some of them have actually won the award like say Russell Westbrook.

Was paul top ten? I feel like top five is pretty arbitrary. I wouldn’t say anyone on the Celtics was top 5 on our most recent title team but definitely top ten.

Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #3109 on: July 06, 2021, 01:12:56 AM »

Offline hpantazo

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Any thoughts about the Beverly shoving incident?  I didn't watch the game but saw the clip.  It didn't even look like CP3 said anything to him.  IMO, it was a straight out punk move by a sore loser.

I'm disappointed that he only got a one game suspension next season for it. It was so uncalled for and such a dirty, blatant unsportsmanlike move that he deserved a more severe punishment.

Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #3110 on: July 06, 2021, 08:49:13 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Crazy year. Of the Final 4 teams, with Giannis and Kawhi missing all or some games, who was the best player left playing and how does that player rank as top players?

CP3 at maybe top 25-30?
Is Paul George top 20 good?
Is Booker?
Is Trae?

This "Covid Era" of the NBA has thrown conventional rules about who wins titles out the window except one....health. The healthiest teams seem to be the best in this Era. At least for this year, so much for the idea that you need a top 5 player to win it all. You just had to be good AND healthy.

Sadly for the Celtics, like other teams that played a long time in the bubble, they were far from healthy.
It was never about stacking up on conventional top 5 players (there are like 10-11 of them in the league right now so it's really not only 5 guys) - it was always about assembling the best team, and you can achieve that without that level of player.

My eleven superstars (in order of position):

Guards: Curry, Doncic, Harden, Lillard
Wings: Durant, Leonard, Antetokounmpo, James
Bigs: Jokic, Embiid, Davis

But honestly Young, Paul, Mitchell, Beal, Butler, George, Tatum and Towns are also guys who can lead a team on the offensive end. The NBA is incredibly talented. Injuries unfortunately have had a big impact this year (even moreso than before), still there's a lot of parity right now.

And for the near future I believe the combo of Tatum/Brown can be sufficient to win a title when there's more defined roles, cohesion, teamplay and less injuries than we saw this season.
Kinda what I was leading into. That having those stars is less important than team quality, especially as the league is trending more to parity. So, yeah, a Tatum-Brown centric team can win it all. And soon, if the team is built right.
or it is just a weird year creating an abnormal number of injuries and isn't able to be duplicated.  I mean the Heat went to the finals last year and got swept in the 1st round. Boston was in the ecf and out in a non competitive 1st round series. 

And if Giannis plays and Milwaukee wins, the champion will fall right in line with history yet again.

So what if Giannis wins? The point is that right now, there are no truly dominant players, with the possible exception of Kevin Durant, and he has perhaps a 2 year window and some very talented but also very sketchy co-stars.

Tatum and Brown will be better next year, and they are both already at a stage where they are able to play big against anyone. LeBron may not be over yet, but the LeBron age is over.
If the Bucks win with Giannis, then the Bucks fall perfectly in line with basically all but 3 champions in history i.e. they have a top 5 player on their team.  If the Suns win, they would become just the 4th team in history to win a title without a top 5 player.  They happen every so often.  The last time was the 14 Spurs, but that was a team with 4 HOFers in various stages of their careers (TD, Manu, Parker, Kawhi) plus one of the greatest coaches in history.  Before the Spurs it was the 04 Pistons.  Before them it was the 79 Sonics.  That is it at least imo, some might argue the 78 Bullets or the 11 Mavericks, though I've always felt Hayes and Dirk were top 5 players those seasons.  That's it.  Every other champion had an unquestioned top 5 player and many had more than 1. 

I'm just not going to put much historical stock in the last 2 seasons.  The bubble was just weird, with the huge break and no home court.  And this year was a shortened season with less time off between games and a shortened off season, which has lead to BY FAR the most stars being injured and missing playoff games.  Even some that didn't miss games have been hampered (including Paul).  I just don't think you can read anything into these past two seasons.  Now if next year is a more typical season with significantly less star injuries in the playoffs and we still see a team like the Suns make the Finals, then maybe we can start talking about new trends and how things are different.

What are your criteria for who is a top 5 player and who isn't?

If we look at the top 5 finishers in the MVP voting this season, they are:

Jokic
Embiid
Curry
Giannis
CP3

So, based on that alone, the Suns have a top 5 player, plus a young star in Booker and a young developing star in Ayton. So wouldn't the Suns also fulfill that criteria and then some?
MVP voting is rarely about who the best player is.  If it was Lebron would have at least 10 MVP's.  As such, it isn't a great measure of who the 5 best players actually are.  Now there is certainly some subjectivity in it, but I think most people generally regard Giannis, Durant, Lebron, and Kawhi as the 4 best players in the league.  The 5th spot is certainly up for debate and I think you could make reasonable arguments that any of Jokic, Embiid, Curry, Harden, Davis, or Doncic is the 5th best player in the world.  No one would put Chris Paul in that category.  He had a wonderful season and deserved the MVP votes, but he isn't a top 5 player in the world just as IT4 wasn't when he finished in the top 5 for Boston a few years back either.  Almost every year there are players that finish in the top 5, that basically no one would actually consider a top 5 player.  Heck, some of them have actually won the award like say Russell Westbrook.

Was paul top ten? I feel like top five is pretty arbitrary. I wouldn’t say anyone on the Celtics was top 5 on our most recent title team but definitely top ten.
KG was a top 5 player in 2008. 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #3111 on: July 06, 2021, 08:55:06 AM »

Offline mr. dee

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Crazy year. Of the Final 4 teams, with Giannis and Kawhi missing all or some games, who was the best player left playing and how does that player rank as top players?

CP3 at maybe top 25-30?
Is Paul George top 20 good?
Is Booker?
Is Trae?

This "Covid Era" of the NBA has thrown conventional rules about who wins titles out the window except one....health. The healthiest teams seem to be the best in this Era. At least for this year, so much for the idea that you need a top 5 player to win it all. You just had to be good AND healthy.

Sadly for the Celtics, like other teams that played a long time in the bubble, they were far from healthy.
It was never about stacking up on conventional top 5 players (there are like 10-11 of them in the league right now so it's really not only 5 guys) - it was always about assembling the best team, and you can achieve that without that level of player.

My eleven superstars (in order of position):

Guards: Curry, Doncic, Harden, Lillard
Wings: Durant, Leonard, Antetokounmpo, James
Bigs: Jokic, Embiid, Davis

But honestly Young, Paul, Mitchell, Beal, Butler, George, Tatum and Towns are also guys who can lead a team on the offensive end. The NBA is incredibly talented. Injuries unfortunately have had a big impact this year (even moreso than before), still there's a lot of parity right now.

And for the near future I believe the combo of Tatum/Brown can be sufficient to win a title when there's more defined roles, cohesion, teamplay and less injuries than we saw this season.
Kinda what I was leading into. That having those stars is less important than team quality, especially as the league is trending more to parity. So, yeah, a Tatum-Brown centric team can win it all. And soon, if the team is built right.
or it is just a weird year creating an abnormal number of injuries and isn't able to be duplicated.  I mean the Heat went to the finals last year and got swept in the 1st round. Boston was in the ecf and out in a non competitive 1st round series. 

And if Giannis plays and Milwaukee wins, the champion will fall right in line with history yet again.

So what if Giannis wins? The point is that right now, there are no truly dominant players, with the possible exception of Kevin Durant, and he has perhaps a 2 year window and some very talented but also very sketchy co-stars.

Tatum and Brown will be better next year, and they are both already at a stage where they are able to play big against anyone. LeBron may not be over yet, but the LeBron age is over.
If the Bucks win with Giannis, then the Bucks fall perfectly in line with basically all but 3 champions in history i.e. they have a top 5 player on their team.  If the Suns win, they would become just the 4th team in history to win a title without a top 5 player.  They happen every so often.  The last time was the 14 Spurs, but that was a team with 4 HOFers in various stages of their careers (TD, Manu, Parker, Kawhi) plus one of the greatest coaches in history.  Before the Spurs it was the 04 Pistons.  Before them it was the 79 Sonics.  That is it at least imo, some might argue the 78 Bullets or the 11 Mavericks, though I've always felt Hayes and Dirk were top 5 players those seasons.  That's it.  Every other champion had an unquestioned top 5 player and many had more than 1. 

I'm just not going to put much historical stock in the last 2 seasons.  The bubble was just weird, with the huge break and no home court.  And this year was a shortened season with less time off between games and a shortened off season, which has lead to BY FAR the most stars being injured and missing playoff games.  Even some that didn't miss games have been hampered (including Paul).  I just don't think you can read anything into these past two seasons.  Now if next year is a more typical season with significantly less star injuries in the playoffs and we still see a team like the Suns make the Finals, then maybe we can start talking about new trends and how things are different.

What are your criteria for who is a top 5 player and who isn't?

If we look at the top 5 finishers in the MVP voting this season, they are:

Jokic
Embiid
Curry
Giannis
CP3

So, based on that alone, the Suns have a top 5 player, plus a young star in Booker and a young developing star in Ayton. So wouldn't the Suns also fulfill that criteria and then some?
MVP voting is rarely about who the best player is.  If it was Lebron would have at least 10 MVP's.  As such, it isn't a great measure of who the 5 best players actually are.  Now there is certainly some subjectivity in it, but I think most people generally regard Giannis, Durant, Lebron, and Kawhi as the 4 best players in the league.  The 5th spot is certainly up for debate and I think you could make reasonable arguments that any of Jokic, Embiid, Curry, Harden, Davis, or Doncic is the 5th best player in the world.  No one would put Chris Paul in that category.  He had a wonderful season and deserved the MVP votes, but he isn't a top 5 player in the world just as IT4 wasn't when he finished in the top 5 for Boston a few years back either.  Almost every year there are players that finish in the top 5, that basically no one would actually consider a top 5 player.  Heck, some of them have actually won the award like say Russell Westbrook.

Was paul top ten? I feel like top five is pretty arbitrary. I wouldn’t say anyone on the Celtics was top 5 on our most recent title team but definitely top ten.
KG was a top 5 player in 2008.
KG was actually 3rd in MVP voting that year. Guess who's the 2nd: CP3.

Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #3112 on: July 06, 2021, 09:59:33 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Crazy year. Of the Final 4 teams, with Giannis and Kawhi missing all or some games, who was the best player left playing and how does that player rank as top players?

CP3 at maybe top 25-30?
Is Paul George top 20 good?
Is Booker?
Is Trae?

This "Covid Era" of the NBA has thrown conventional rules about who wins titles out the window except one....health. The healthiest teams seem to be the best in this Era. At least for this year, so much for the idea that you need a top 5 player to win it all. You just had to be good AND healthy.

Sadly for the Celtics, like other teams that played a long time in the bubble, they were far from healthy.
It was never about stacking up on conventional top 5 players (there are like 10-11 of them in the league right now so it's really not only 5 guys) - it was always about assembling the best team, and you can achieve that without that level of player.

My eleven superstars (in order of position):

Guards: Curry, Doncic, Harden, Lillard
Wings: Durant, Leonard, Antetokounmpo, James
Bigs: Jokic, Embiid, Davis

But honestly Young, Paul, Mitchell, Beal, Butler, George, Tatum and Towns are also guys who can lead a team on the offensive end. The NBA is incredibly talented. Injuries unfortunately have had a big impact this year (even moreso than before), still there's a lot of parity right now.

And for the near future I believe the combo of Tatum/Brown can be sufficient to win a title when there's more defined roles, cohesion, teamplay and less injuries than we saw this season.
Kinda what I was leading into. That having those stars is less important than team quality, especially as the league is trending more to parity. So, yeah, a Tatum-Brown centric team can win it all. And soon, if the team is built right.
or it is just a weird year creating an abnormal number of injuries and isn't able to be duplicated.  I mean the Heat went to the finals last year and got swept in the 1st round. Boston was in the ecf and out in a non competitive 1st round series. 

And if Giannis plays and Milwaukee wins, the champion will fall right in line with history yet again.

So what if Giannis wins? The point is that right now, there are no truly dominant players, with the possible exception of Kevin Durant, and he has perhaps a 2 year window and some very talented but also very sketchy co-stars.

Tatum and Brown will be better next year, and they are both already at a stage where they are able to play big against anyone. LeBron may not be over yet, but the LeBron age is over.
If the Bucks win with Giannis, then the Bucks fall perfectly in line with basically all but 3 champions in history i.e. they have a top 5 player on their team.  If the Suns win, they would become just the 4th team in history to win a title without a top 5 player.  They happen every so often.  The last time was the 14 Spurs, but that was a team with 4 HOFers in various stages of their careers (TD, Manu, Parker, Kawhi) plus one of the greatest coaches in history.  Before the Spurs it was the 04 Pistons.  Before them it was the 79 Sonics.  That is it at least imo, some might argue the 78 Bullets or the 11 Mavericks, though I've always felt Hayes and Dirk were top 5 players those seasons.  That's it.  Every other champion had an unquestioned top 5 player and many had more than 1. 

I'm just not going to put much historical stock in the last 2 seasons.  The bubble was just weird, with the huge break and no home court.  And this year was a shortened season with less time off between games and a shortened off season, which has lead to BY FAR the most stars being injured and missing playoff games.  Even some that didn't miss games have been hampered (including Paul).  I just don't think you can read anything into these past two seasons.  Now if next year is a more typical season with significantly less star injuries in the playoffs and we still see a team like the Suns make the Finals, then maybe we can start talking about new trends and how things are different.

What are your criteria for who is a top 5 player and who isn't?

If we look at the top 5 finishers in the MVP voting this season, they are:

Jokic
Embiid
Curry
Giannis
CP3

So, based on that alone, the Suns have a top 5 player, plus a young star in Booker and a young developing star in Ayton. So wouldn't the Suns also fulfill that criteria and then some?
MVP voting is rarely about who the best player is.  If it was Lebron would have at least 10 MVP's.  As such, it isn't a great measure of who the 5 best players actually are.  Now there is certainly some subjectivity in it, but I think most people generally regard Giannis, Durant, Lebron, and Kawhi as the 4 best players in the league.  The 5th spot is certainly up for debate and I think you could make reasonable arguments that any of Jokic, Embiid, Curry, Harden, Davis, or Doncic is the 5th best player in the world.  No one would put Chris Paul in that category.  He had a wonderful season and deserved the MVP votes, but he isn't a top 5 player in the world just as IT4 wasn't when he finished in the top 5 for Boston a few years back either.  Almost every year there are players that finish in the top 5, that basically no one would actually consider a top 5 player.  Heck, some of them have actually won the award like say Russell Westbrook.

Was paul top ten? I feel like top five is pretty arbitrary. I wouldn’t say anyone on the Celtics was top 5 on our most recent title team but definitely top ten.
KG was a top 5 player in 2008.
KG was actually 3rd in MVP voting that year. Guess who's the 2nd: CP3.
As I said, I don't put much stock in MVP as an indicator of player rankings.  It obviously is some evidence of the quality of a season though. 

That year I'd have the top 5 in no particular order as Duncan, Kobe, KG, Lebron, and Howard. 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #3113 on: July 06, 2021, 10:42:49 AM »

Offline sgrogan

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I would add the 1990 Pistons to the outliers.
I posted a chart on a Fanpost on Celticsblog
https://www.celticsblog.com/2021/6/29/22556361/star-power

Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #3114 on: July 06, 2021, 10:59:14 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I would add the 1990 Pistons to the outliers.
I posted a chart on a Fanpost on Celticsblog
https://www.celticsblog.com/2021/6/29/22556361/star-power
Joe Dumars was no where near as good a player as Isiah Thomas. 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #3115 on: July 06, 2021, 11:17:09 AM »

Offline sgrogan

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No doubt. The criteria I used for "Best Player" was highest All_NBA that season.

Are you arguing that Isiah Thomas, despite not making any All-NBA teams that year was a top 5 player?

Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #3116 on: July 06, 2021, 12:21:57 PM »

Offline Moranis

  • James Naismith
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No doubt. The criteria I used for "Best Player" was highest All_NBA that season.

Are you arguing that Isiah Thomas, despite not making any All-NBA teams that year was a top 5 player?
I think Thomas was in fact a top 5 player that year or at least arguably was.  I think only Jordan, Magic, and Hakeem were clearly better players.  I'd listen to arguments about Bird, Mailman, Charles, and Ewing.  He was certainly better than Dumars, Drexler, KJ, and Stockon, who were on the 2nd and 3rd team all nba that season.  Thomas suffered in end of the year things like All NBA, MVP voting, etc., in a very large part because he wasn't well liked and he didn't have the scoring stats where the voters couldn't overlook him.  It is as much the reason he wasn't on the original Dream Team as anything else. I also think Thomas was very underrated as a defender, especially his possession creating with the steals and deflections. 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #3117 on: July 06, 2021, 12:38:00 PM »

Offline sgrogan

  • Jaylen Brown
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No doubt. The criteria I used for "Best Player" was highest All_NBA that season.

Are you arguing that Isiah Thomas, despite not making any All-NBA teams that year was a top 5 player?
I think Thomas was in fact a top 5 player that year or at least arguably was.  I think only Jordan, Magic, and Hakeem were clearly better players.  I'd listen to arguments about Bird, Mailman, Charles, and Ewing.  He was certainly better than Dumars, Drexler, KJ, and Stockon, who were on the 2nd and 3rd team all nba that season.  Thomas suffered in end of the year things like All NBA, MVP voting, etc., in a very large part because he wasn't well liked and he didn't have the scoring stats where the voters couldn't overlook him.  It is as much the reason he wasn't on the original Dream Team as anything else. I also think Thomas was very underrated as a defender, especially his possession creating with the steals and deflections.
Fair enough. I don't agree with top 5 but I do acknowledge the likability factor.
Dumars probably received some MVP/ALL-NBA votes that might have otherwise gone to Thomas.

Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #3118 on: July 06, 2021, 03:46:45 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Crazy year. Of the Final 4 teams, with Giannis and Kawhi missing all or some games, who was the best player left playing and how does that player rank as top players?

CP3 at maybe top 25-30?
Is Paul George top 20 good?
Is Booker?
Is Trae?

This "Covid Era" of the NBA has thrown conventional rules about who wins titles out the window except one....health. The healthiest teams seem to be the best in this Era. At least for this year, so much for the idea that you need a top 5 player to win it all. You just had to be good AND healthy.

Sadly for the Celtics, like other teams that played a long time in the bubble, they were far from healthy.
It was never about stacking up on conventional top 5 players (there are like 10-11 of them in the league right now so it's really not only 5 guys) - it was always about assembling the best team, and you can achieve that without that level of player.

My eleven superstars (in order of position):

Guards: Curry, Doncic, Harden, Lillard
Wings: Durant, Leonard, Antetokounmpo, James
Bigs: Jokic, Embiid, Davis

But honestly Young, Paul, Mitchell, Beal, Butler, George, Tatum and Towns are also guys who can lead a team on the offensive end. The NBA is incredibly talented. Injuries unfortunately have had a big impact this year (even moreso than before), still there's a lot of parity right now.

And for the near future I believe the combo of Tatum/Brown can be sufficient to win a title when there's more defined roles, cohesion, teamplay and less injuries than we saw this season.
Kinda what I was leading into. That having those stars is less important than team quality, especially as the league is trending more to parity. So, yeah, a Tatum-Brown centric team can win it all. And soon, if the team is built right.
or it is just a weird year creating an abnormal number of injuries and isn't able to be duplicated.  I mean the Heat went to the finals last year and got swept in the 1st round. Boston was in the ecf and out in a non competitive 1st round series. 

And if Giannis plays and Milwaukee wins, the champion will fall right in line with history yet again.

So what if Giannis wins? The point is that right now, there are no truly dominant players, with the possible exception of Kevin Durant, and he has perhaps a 2 year window and some very talented but also very sketchy co-stars.

Tatum and Brown will be better next year, and they are both already at a stage where they are able to play big against anyone. LeBron may not be over yet, but the LeBron age is over.
If the Bucks win with Giannis, then the Bucks fall perfectly in line with basically all but 3 champions in history i.e. they have a top 5 player on their team.  If the Suns win, they would become just the 4th team in history to win a title without a top 5 player.  They happen every so often.  The last time was the 14 Spurs, but that was a team with 4 HOFers in various stages of their careers (TD, Manu, Parker, Kawhi) plus one of the greatest coaches in history.  Before the Spurs it was the 04 Pistons.  Before them it was the 79 Sonics.  That is it at least imo, some might argue the 78 Bullets or the 11 Mavericks, though I've always felt Hayes and Dirk were top 5 players those seasons.  That's it.  Every other champion had an unquestioned top 5 player and many had more than 1. 

I'm just not going to put much historical stock in the last 2 seasons.  The bubble was just weird, with the huge break and no home court.  And this year was a shortened season with less time off between games and a shortened off season, which has lead to BY FAR the most stars being injured and missing playoff games.  Even some that didn't miss games have been hampered (including Paul).  I just don't think you can read anything into these past two seasons.  Now if next year is a more typical season with significantly less star injuries in the playoffs and we still see a team like the Suns make the Finals, then maybe we can start talking about new trends and how things are different.

What are your criteria for who is a top 5 player and who isn't?

If we look at the top 5 finishers in the MVP voting this season, they are:

Jokic
Embiid
Curry
Giannis
CP3

So, based on that alone, the Suns have a top 5 player, plus a young star in Booker and a young developing star in Ayton. So wouldn't the Suns also fulfill that criteria and then some?
MVP voting is rarely about who the best player is.  If it was Lebron would have at least 10 MVP's.  As such, it isn't a great measure of who the 5 best players actually are.  Now there is certainly some subjectivity in it, but I think most people generally regard Giannis, Durant, Lebron, and Kawhi as the 4 best players in the league.  The 5th spot is certainly up for debate and I think you could make reasonable arguments that any of Jokic, Embiid, Curry, Harden, Davis, or Doncic is the 5th best player in the world.  No one would put Chris Paul in that category.  He had a wonderful season and deserved the MVP votes, but he isn't a top 5 player in the world just as IT4 wasn't when he finished in the top 5 for Boston a few years back either.  Almost every year there are players that finish in the top 5, that basically no one would actually consider a top 5 player.  Heck, some of them have actually won the award like say Russell Westbrook.

Was paul top ten? I feel like top five is pretty arbitrary. I wouldn’t say anyone on the Celtics was top 5 on our most recent title team but definitely top ten.
KG was a top 5 player in 2008.

Disagree. You’ve really come up with some arbitrary rankings to continue this narrative. You already dismissed
Mvp voting as a measure so don’t waffle on that. He averaged 18 and 9 with elite defense. Top ten? Definitely, but top 5 very unclear

Lebron, kobe, howard and paul would seem to be clearly above him. Then what makes him clearly better than tim duncan that season? Stoudamire? Nash? Dirk? Clearly not black and white here.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2021, 03:55:33 PM by celticsclay »

Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #3119 on: July 06, 2021, 03:54:38 PM »

Offline sgrogan

  • Jaylen Brown
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  • Tommy Points: 25
Crazy year. Of the Final 4 teams, with Giannis and Kawhi missing all or some games, who was the best player left playing and how does that player rank as top players?

CP3 at maybe top 25-30?
Is Paul George top 20 good?
Is Booker?
Is Trae?

This "Covid Era" of the NBA has thrown conventional rules about who wins titles out the window except one....health. The healthiest teams seem to be the best in this Era. At least for this year, so much for the idea that you need a top 5 player to win it all. You just had to be good AND healthy.

Sadly for the Celtics, like other teams that played a long time in the bubble, they were far from healthy.
It was never about stacking up on conventional top 5 players (there are like 10-11 of them in the league right now so it's really not only 5 guys) - it was always about assembling the best team, and you can achieve that without that level of player.

My eleven superstars (in order of position):

Guards: Curry, Doncic, Harden, Lillard
Wings: Durant, Leonard, Antetokounmpo, James
Bigs: Jokic, Embiid, Davis

But honestly Young, Paul, Mitchell, Beal, Butler, George, Tatum and Towns are also guys who can lead a team on the offensive end. The NBA is incredibly talented. Injuries unfortunately have had a big impact this year (even moreso than before), still there's a lot of parity right now.

And for the near future I believe the combo of Tatum/Brown can be sufficient to win a title when there's more defined roles, cohesion, teamplay and less injuries than we saw this season.
Kinda what I was leading into. That having those stars is less important than team quality, especially as the league is trending more to parity. So, yeah, a Tatum-Brown centric team can win it all. And soon, if the team is built right.
or it is just a weird year creating an abnormal number of injuries and isn't able to be duplicated.  I mean the Heat went to the finals last year and got swept in the 1st round. Boston was in the ecf and out in a non competitive 1st round series. 

And if Giannis plays and Milwaukee wins, the champion will fall right in line with history yet again.

So what if Giannis wins? The point is that right now, there are no truly dominant players, with the possible exception of Kevin Durant, and he has perhaps a 2 year window and some very talented but also very sketchy co-stars.

Tatum and Brown will be better next year, and they are both already at a stage where they are able to play big against anyone. LeBron may not be over yet, but the LeBron age is over.
If the Bucks win with Giannis, then the Bucks fall perfectly in line with basically all but 3 champions in history i.e. they have a top 5 player on their team.  If the Suns win, they would become just the 4th team in history to win a title without a top 5 player.  They happen every so often.  The last time was the 14 Spurs, but that was a team with 4 HOFers in various stages of their careers (TD, Manu, Parker, Kawhi) plus one of the greatest coaches in history.  Before the Spurs it was the 04 Pistons.  Before them it was the 79 Sonics.  That is it at least imo, some might argue the 78 Bullets or the 11 Mavericks, though I've always felt Hayes and Dirk were top 5 players those seasons.  That's it.  Every other champion had an unquestioned top 5 player and many had more than 1. 

I'm just not going to put much historical stock in the last 2 seasons.  The bubble was just weird, with the huge break and no home court.  And this year was a shortened season with less time off between games and a shortened off season, which has lead to BY FAR the most stars being injured and missing playoff games.  Even some that didn't miss games have been hampered (including Paul).  I just don't think you can read anything into these past two seasons.  Now if next year is a more typical season with significantly less star injuries in the playoffs and we still see a team like the Suns make the Finals, then maybe we can start talking about new trends and how things are different.

What are your criteria for who is a top 5 player and who isn't?

If we look at the top 5 finishers in the MVP voting this season, they are:

Jokic
Embiid
Curry
Giannis
CP3

So, based on that alone, the Suns have a top 5 player, plus a young star in Booker and a young developing star in Ayton. So wouldn't the Suns also fulfill that criteria and then some?
MVP voting is rarely about who the best player is.  If it was Lebron would have at least 10 MVP's.  As such, it isn't a great measure of who the 5 best players actually are.  Now there is certainly some subjectivity in it, but I think most people generally regard Giannis, Durant, Lebron, and Kawhi as the 4 best players in the league.  The 5th spot is certainly up for debate and I think you could make reasonable arguments that any of Jokic, Embiid, Curry, Harden, Davis, or Doncic is the 5th best player in the world.  No one would put Chris Paul in that category.  He had a wonderful season and deserved the MVP votes, but he isn't a top 5 player in the world just as IT4 wasn't when he finished in the top 5 for Boston a few years back either.  Almost every year there are players that finish in the top 5, that basically no one would actually consider a top 5 player.  Heck, some of them have actually won the award like say Russell Westbrook.

Was paul top ten? I feel like top five is pretty arbitrary. I wouldn’t say anyone on the Celtics was top 5 on our most recent title team but definitely top ten.
KG was a top 5 player in 2008.

Disagree. You’ve really come up with some arbitrary rankings to continue this narrative. You already dismissed
Mvp voting as a measure so don’t waffle on that. He averaged 18 and 9 with elite defense. Top ten? Definitely, but top 5 very unclear
Wasn't KG 3rd in MVP that year?