Author Topic: Kanter with 30 rebounds  (Read 5492 times)

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Re: Kanter with 30 rebounds
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2021, 03:10:39 PM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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Then Brad needs to adjust his system to accommodate big men. We are not winning a title until we get bigger, stronger and tougher inside.
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Re: Kanter with 30 rebounds
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2021, 04:34:02 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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Celtics did not use Katner that much and u see what happens..he couldn’t shoot 3s so that’s why he didn’t play that many minutes

No. This is a flat out lie. He didn't play as much in certain matchups because he couldnt defend the PnR.

This.

And it’s a little weird to say the Celtics got rid of Kanter because they will only play bigs who shoot the 3. If that’s right, why did they go out and got Tristan Thompson? Turn down Myles Turner, who does shoot the 3? They thought TT would bring defense, championship experience, and a little chip-on-the-shoulder the team needs. Hasn’t worked out great, but clearly they didn’t get him and haven’t played him for his outside shooting.

If all they want is shooting why aren’t Kornet and Wagner playing more???

It's not because Kanter can't shoot the 3, Timelord can't either. It's because he can't switch on multiple players on the perimeter. Brad's entire coaching philosophy is based around positionless basketball, where the team switches pretty much everything. With Kanter he had to change his philosophy because Kanter can't really defend on the perimeter and can't be switched on guards. Basically, Kanter, Drummond, those types of players, Brad doesn't know how to use, or his system doesn't allow them to play to their strengths.

If you look at Kanter, n the 45-odd games he's played for Portland, playing 26 mpg he's had a 24-30, a 20-20 and a 19-19 game and a total of 26 double doubles, as well as 13 games of 15+ rebounds and 4 games of 20+ rebounds. Compare that with his tenure with us, he had 9 double doubles in 58 games averaging 16 mpg.

Brad's system just doesn't maximize the strengths of someone like Kanter, because the system magnifies his weaknesses.

It would if that player had enough strengths on defense in order to make up for changing the system. Changing your entire defense to fit someone like Gobert or possibly Turner makes sense because they are legitimately good at anchoring a defense. Changing your defense for Kanter is never going to be a good idea, because he'll be bad defensively in any system.

You don't go away from your team's strengths (which with guys like Smart/Jaylen/Jayson is being switchable) just to play to the strengths of a role player (or, in a case like Kanter, playing to less of a weakness)
I'm bitter.

Re: Kanter with 30 reboun
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2021, 05:35:13 PM »

Online hwangjini_1

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Celtics did not use Katner that much and u see what happens..he couldn’t shoot 3s so that’s why he didn’t play that many minutes

No. This is a flat out lie. He didn't play as much in certain matchups because he couldnt defend the PnR.

This.

And it’s a little weird to say the Celtics got rid of Kanter because they will only play bigs who shoot the 3. If that’s right, why did they go out and got Tristan Thompson? Turn down Myles Turner, who does shoot the 3? They thought TT would bring defense, championship experience, and a little chip-on-the-shoulder the team needs. Hasn’t worked out great, but clearly they didn’t get him and haven’t played him for his outside shooting.

If all they want is shooting why aren’t Kornet and Wagner playing more???

Because there is no design on this team. They just roll out the ball and hope Tatum wins it for them. There is no plan.
we have now entered silly-world.  :o
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Re: Kanter with 30 rebounds
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2021, 05:46:23 PM »

Offline ozgod

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Celtics did not use Katner that much and u see what happens..he couldn’t shoot 3s so that’s why he didn’t play that many minutes

No. This is a flat out lie. He didn't play as much in certain matchups because he couldnt defend the PnR.

This.

And it’s a little weird to say the Celtics got rid of Kanter because they will only play bigs who shoot the 3. If that’s right, why did they go out and got Tristan Thompson? Turn down Myles Turner, who does shoot the 3? They thought TT would bring defense, championship experience, and a little chip-on-the-shoulder the team needs. Hasn’t worked out great, but clearly they didn’t get him and haven’t played him for his outside shooting.

If all they want is shooting why aren’t Kornet and Wagner playing more???

It's not because Kanter can't shoot the 3, Timelord can't either. It's because he can't switch on multiple players on the perimeter. Brad's entire coaching philosophy is based around positionless basketball, where the team switches pretty much everything. With Kanter he had to change his philosophy because Kanter can't really defend on the perimeter and can't be switched on guards. Basically, Kanter, Drummond, those types of players, Brad doesn't know how to use, or his system doesn't allow them to play to their strengths.

If you look at Kanter, n the 45-odd games he's played for Portland, playing 26 mpg he's had a 24-30, a 20-20 and a 19-19 game and a total of 26 double doubles, as well as 13 games of 15+ rebounds and 4 games of 20+ rebounds. Compare that with his tenure with us, he had 9 double doubles in 58 games averaging 16 mpg.

Brad's system just doesn't maximize the strengths of someone like Kanter, because the system magnifies his weaknesses.

It would if that player had enough strengths on defense in order to make up for changing the system. Changing your entire defense to fit someone like Gobert or possibly Turner makes sense because they are legitimately good at anchoring a defense. Changing your defense for Kanter is never going to be a good idea, because he'll be bad defensively in any system.

You don't go away from your team's strengths (which with guys like Smart/Jaylen/Jayson is being switchable) just to play to the strengths of a role player (or, in a case like Kanter, playing to less of a weakness)

Yup. Which is also why I didn't think it would be worth getting someone like Drummond, who is a very similar type of player. Monroe didn't work out for the same reason. Kardashian can't shoot but at least he can switch some on the perimeter.
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D


Re: Kanter with 30 reboun
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2021, 06:00:23 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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Celtics did not use Katner that much and u see what happens..he couldn’t shoot 3s so that’s why he didn’t play that many minutes

No. This is a flat out lie. He didn't play as much in certain matchups because he couldnt defend the PnR.

This.

And it’s a little weird to say the Celtics got rid of Kanter because they will only play bigs who shoot the 3. If that’s right, why did they go out and got Tristan Thompson? Turn down Myles Turner, who does shoot the 3? They thought TT would bring defense, championship experience, and a little chip-on-the-shoulder the team needs. Hasn’t worked out great, but clearly they didn’t get him and haven’t played him for his outside shooting.

If all they want is shooting why aren’t Kornet and Wagner playing more???

Because there is no design on this team. They just roll out the ball and hope Tatum wins it for them. There is no plan.
we have now entered silly-world.  :o

What is the design?

Re: Kanter with 30 rebounds
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2021, 01:35:48 AM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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Celtics did not use Katner that much and u see what happens..he couldn’t shoot 3s so that’s why he didn’t play that many minutes

No. This is a flat out lie. He didn't play as much in certain matchups because he couldnt defend the PnR.

This.

And it’s a little weird to say the Celtics got rid of Kanter because they will only play bigs who shoot the 3. If that’s right, why did they go out and got Tristan Thompson? Turn down Myles Turner, who does shoot the 3? They thought TT would bring defense, championship experience, and a little chip-on-the-shoulder the team needs. Hasn’t worked out great, but clearly they didn’t get him and haven’t played him for his outside shooting.

If all they want is shooting why aren’t Kornet and Wagner playing more???

It's not because Kanter can't shoot the 3, Timelord can't either. It's because he can't switch on multiple players on the perimeter. Brad's entire coaching philosophy is based around positionless basketball, where the team switches pretty much everything. With Kanter he had to change his philosophy because Kanter can't really defend on the perimeter and can't be switched on guards. Basically, Kanter, Drummond, those types of players, Brad doesn't know how to use, or his system doesn't allow them to play to their strengths.

If you look at Kanter, n the 45-odd games he's played for Portland, playing 26 mpg he's had a 24-30, a 20-20 and a 19-19 game and a total of 26 double doubles, as well as 13 games of 15+ rebounds and 4 games of 20+ rebounds. Compare that with his tenure with us, he had 9 double doubles in 58 games averaging 16 mpg.

Brad's system just doesn't maximize the strengths of someone like Kanter, because the system magnifies his weaknesses.

The entire "Kanter in Boston" situation kinda leaves me scratching my head. Danny knows Brad's system, so why did he ever acquire Kanter, knowing that Brad wouldn't use him a ton? Conversely, why is Brad such a stickler with his system instead of being more flexible based on the players Danny gives him?

I love Kanter, loved having him in Boston, was bummed to see him leave, and I wish he'd gotten more run while he was here. I understand that he has defensive limitations, but he was easy offense and gobbled up rebounds. And doesn't Thompson have similar defensive limitations? He's not a great perimeter defender, is he?
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Re: Kanter with 30 rebounds
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2021, 02:53:18 AM »

Offline Scottiej23

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Celtics did not use Katner that much and u see what happens..he couldn’t shoot 3s so that’s why he didn’t play that many minutes

No. This is a flat out lie. He didn't play as much in certain matchups because he couldnt defend the PnR.

This.

And it’s a little weird to say the Celtics got rid of Kanter because they will only play bigs who shoot the 3. If that’s right, why did they go out and got Tristan Thompson? Turn down Myles Turner, who does shoot the 3? They thought TT would bring defense, championship experience, and a little chip-on-the-shoulder the team needs. Hasn’t worked out great, but clearly they didn’t get him and haven’t played him for his outside shooting.

If all they want is shooting why aren’t Kornet and Wagner playing more???

It's not because Kanter can't shoot the 3, Timelord can't either. It's because he can't switch on multiple players on the perimeter. Brad's entire coaching philosophy is based around positionless basketball, where the team switches pretty much everything. With Kanter he had to change his philosophy because Kanter can't really defend on the perimeter and can't be switched on guards. Basically, Kanter, Drummond, those types of players, Brad doesn't know how to use, or his system doesn't allow them to play to their strengths.

If you look at Kanter, n the 45-odd games he's played for Portland, playing 26 mpg he's had a 24-30, a 20-20 and a 19-19 game and a total of 26 double doubles, as well as 13 games of 15+ rebounds and 4 games of 20+ rebounds. Compare that with his tenure with us, he had 9 double doubles in 58 games averaging 16 mpg.

Brad's system just doesn't maximize the strengths of someone like Kanter, because the system magnifies his weaknesses.

It would if that player had enough strengths on defense in order to make up for changing the system. Changing your entire defense to fit someone like Gobert or possibly Turner makes sense because they are legitimately good at anchoring a defense. Changing your defense for Kanter is never going to be a good idea, because he'll be bad defensively in any system.

You don't go away from your team's strengths (which with guys like Smart/Jaylen/Jayson is being switchable) just to play to the strengths of a role player (or, in a case like Kanter, playing to less of a weakness)

Yup. Which is also why I didn't think it would be worth getting someone like Drummond, who is a very similar type of player. Monroe didn't work out for the same reason. Kardashian can't shoot but at least he can switch some on the perimeter.

Some really good thoughts here Oz, I definitely agree re Drummond & Monroe. Our system is just not conducive to the older style big, power players.

Re: Kanter with 30 rebounds
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2021, 03:23:05 AM »

Offline ozgod

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Celtics did not use Katner that much and u see what happens..he couldn’t shoot 3s so that’s why he didn’t play that many minutes

No. This is a flat out lie. He didn't play as much in certain matchups because he couldnt defend the PnR.

This.

And it’s a little weird to say the Celtics got rid of Kanter because they will only play bigs who shoot the 3. If that’s right, why did they go out and got Tristan Thompson? Turn down Myles Turner, who does shoot the 3? They thought TT would bring defense, championship experience, and a little chip-on-the-shoulder the team needs. Hasn’t worked out great, but clearly they didn’t get him and haven’t played him for his outside shooting.

If all they want is shooting why aren’t Kornet and Wagner playing more???

It's not because Kanter can't shoot the 3, Timelord can't either. It's because he can't switch on multiple players on the perimeter. Brad's entire coaching philosophy is based around positionless basketball, where the team switches pretty much everything. With Kanter he had to change his philosophy because Kanter can't really defend on the perimeter and can't be switched on guards. Basically, Kanter, Drummond, those types of players, Brad doesn't know how to use, or his system doesn't allow them to play to their strengths.

If you look at Kanter, n the 45-odd games he's played for Portland, playing 26 mpg he's had a 24-30, a 20-20 and a 19-19 game and a total of 26 double doubles, as well as 13 games of 15+ rebounds and 4 games of 20+ rebounds. Compare that with his tenure with us, he had 9 double doubles in 58 games averaging 16 mpg.

Brad's system just doesn't maximize the strengths of someone like Kanter, because the system magnifies his weaknesses.

The entire "Kanter in Boston" situation kinda leaves me scratching my head. Danny knows Brad's system, so why did he ever acquire Kanter, knowing that Brad wouldn't use him a ton? Conversely, why is Brad such a stickler with his system instead of being more flexible based on the players Danny gives him?

I love Kanter, loved having him in Boston, was bummed to see him leave, and I wish he'd gotten more run while he was here. I understand that he has defensive limitations, but he was easy offense and gobbled up rebounds. And doesn't Thompson have similar defensive limitations? He's not a great perimeter defender, is he?

I think the main reason Kanter was acquired was to defend against Embiid, after we lost Horford. Kanter's lateral speed is too slow for him to be switched to guards on the perimeter, so he's always a risk defending the pick and roll, but he's a solid man-to-man defender against bigs like Embiid because he can keep them in front of him and he has the bulk to not get sonned in the paint. And since Philly (at the time we acquired Kanter) didn't really have a great pick and roll game since they had no outside shooters and since Simmons can't shoot coming off a screen, he doesn't really run the PnR with Embiid (last year I think Philly was 2nd last in pick and roll possession frequency at 12.5%). So Kanter was a pretty decent defender to use against Embiid and if you look at his defensive rating vs Philly last year it was 108 vs an offensive rating of 131. But he was only ever going to be a tactical substitution for that reason, which is why he ended up with the same mpg as GWill who is probably half the rebounder and scorer Kanter is but fit into Brad's system better. And I can't remember the timing but I wouldn't be surprised if Danny looked at Philly collecting shooters like Curry and Green who could run PnR with Embiid and decided that Kanter was now superfluous to operations.

Why not change the system you say? My guess is it's not so much a need to change the system as it is the fact that the way the game has evolved, teams were attacking him. You'd need to change how far your help defense stood from their matchups to make sure you could cover for him, which would then affect how they would defend on the perimeter and go into rotation...it was probably too big a change for too many other players for too minimal a benefit to cover for one player's inadequacies. I haven't watched enough games with Portland to see how they are using him but given they also have Nurkic who is a similar player. Terry Stotts probably has a game plan that better uses Kanter's strengths.

As for Kardashian, he's a much quicker player on the perimeter than Kanter does. The flipside is he doesn't have quite as much bulk which is why he was getting thrown around like a rag doll by Embiid during the times we played them.

Also this is not to say that Brad doesn't want, or can't incorporate bigs into his system...I'm sure he can, but they have to be the right kind of bigs. Like someone like AD or KAT or Jokic, he'll have no problem incorporating them. Solid passers at the top of the key who can initiate offense and more importantly players who can defend multiple positions. If they can shoot the 3 it's a bonus but they need to be able to switch 2-5, if not 1-5. It's the Monroe/Kanter types that become really situational players for him. IMHO.

Now it will be interesting to see if Brad attacks Kanter, if Kanter starts for Portland  :angel:
« Last Edit: April 12, 2021, 03:34:29 AM by ozgod »
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D


Re: Kanter with 30 rebounds
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2021, 10:35:41 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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Kanter was and is a hologram on defense.

Look no further than Andre Drummond to see how empty raw rebounding stats can be.


Kanter is a fine player, but he's no better than an offensive-minded backup who is severely limited in certain matchups.
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Re: Kanter with 30 rebounds
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2021, 10:36:22 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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Then Brad needs to adjust his system to accommodate big men. We are not winning a title until we get bigger, stronger and tougher inside.

The way I think you're using the word "tougher" doesn't apply to Enes Kanter.
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Re: Kanter with 30 rebounds
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2021, 11:40:14 AM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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Celtics did not use Katner that much and u see what happens..he couldn’t shoot 3s so that’s why he didn’t play that many minutes

No. This is a flat out lie. He didn't play as much in certain matchups because he couldnt defend the PnR.

This.

And it’s a little weird to say the Celtics got rid of Kanter because they will only play bigs who shoot the 3. If that’s right, why did they go out and got Tristan Thompson? Turn down Myles Turner, who does shoot the 3? They thought TT would bring defense, championship experience, and a little chip-on-the-shoulder the team needs. Hasn’t worked out great, but clearly they didn’t get him and haven’t played him for his outside shooting.

If all they want is shooting why aren’t Kornet and Wagner playing more???

It's not because Kanter can't shoot the 3, Timelord can't either. It's because he can't switch on multiple players on the perimeter. Brad's entire coaching philosophy is based around positionless basketball, where the team switches pretty much everything. With Kanter he had to change his philosophy because Kanter can't really defend on the perimeter and can't be switched on guards. Basically, Kanter, Drummond, those types of players, Brad doesn't know how to use, or his system doesn't allow them to play to their strengths.

If you look at Kanter, n the 45-odd games he's played for Portland, playing 26 mpg he's had a 24-30, a 20-20 and a 19-19 game and a total of 26 double doubles, as well as 13 games of 15+ rebounds and 4 games of 20+ rebounds. Compare that with his tenure with us, he had 9 double doubles in 58 games averaging 16 mpg.

Brad's system just doesn't maximize the strengths of someone like Kanter, because the system magnifies his weaknesses.

The entire "Kanter in Boston" situation kinda leaves me scratching my head. Danny knows Brad's system, so why did he ever acquire Kanter, knowing that Brad wouldn't use him a ton? Conversely, why is Brad such a stickler with his system instead of being more flexible based on the players Danny gives him?

I love Kanter, loved having him in Boston, was bummed to see him leave, and I wish he'd gotten more run while he was here. I understand that he has defensive limitations, but he was easy offense and gobbled up rebounds. And doesn't Thompson have similar defensive limitations? He's not a great perimeter defender, is he?

I think the main reason Kanter was acquired was to defend against Embiid, after we lost Horford. Kanter's lateral speed is too slow for him to be switched to guards on the perimeter, so he's always a risk defending the pick and roll, but he's a solid man-to-man defender against bigs like Embiid because he can keep them in front of him and he has the bulk to not get sonned in the paint. And since Philly (at the time we acquired Kanter) didn't really have a great pick and roll game since they had no outside shooters and since Simmons can't shoot coming off a screen, he doesn't really run the PnR with Embiid (last year I think Philly was 2nd last in pick and roll possession frequency at 12.5%). So Kanter was a pretty decent defender to use against Embiid and if you look at his defensive rating vs Philly last year it was 108 vs an offensive rating of 131. But he was only ever going to be a tactical substitution for that reason, which is why he ended up with the same mpg as GWill who is probably half the rebounder and scorer Kanter is but fit into Brad's system better. And I can't remember the timing but I wouldn't be surprised if Danny looked at Philly collecting shooters like Curry and Green who could run PnR with Embiid and decided that Kanter was now superfluous to operations.

Why not change the system you say? My guess is it's not so much a need to change the system as it is the fact that the way the game has evolved, teams were attacking him. You'd need to change how far your help defense stood from their matchups to make sure you could cover for him, which would then affect how they would defend on the perimeter and go into rotation...it was probably too big a change for too many other players for too minimal a benefit to cover for one player's inadequacies. I haven't watched enough games with Portland to see how they are using him but given they also have Nurkic who is a similar player. Terry Stotts probably has a game plan that better uses Kanter's strengths.

As for Kardashian, he's a much quicker player on the perimeter than Kanter does. The flipside is he doesn't have quite as much bulk which is why he was getting thrown around like a rag doll by Embiid during the times we played them.

Also this is not to say that Brad doesn't want, or can't incorporate bigs into his system...I'm sure he can, but they have to be the right kind of bigs. Like someone like AD or KAT or Jokic, he'll have no problem incorporating them. Solid passers at the top of the key who can initiate offense and more importantly players who can defend multiple positions. If they can shoot the 3 it's a bonus but they need to be able to switch 2-5, if not 1-5. It's the Monroe/Kanter types that become really situational players for him. IMHO.

Now it will be interesting to see if Brad attacks Kanter, if Kanter starts for Portland  :angel:

You make good points here, as you did in your previous post. Everything you say makes sense. I guess it's just a sad fact (for me) that among the types of players I like, one type (the Kanter type) has fallen out of fashion. Ah well, that's the way it goes sometimes, I guess.
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Re: Kanter with 30 rebounds
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2021, 03:08:41 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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Celtics did not use Katner that much and u see what happens..he couldn’t shoot 3s so that’s why he didn’t play that many minutes

No. This is a flat out lie. He didn't play as much in certain matchups because he couldnt defend the PnR.

This.

And it’s a little weird to say the Celtics got rid of Kanter because they will only play bigs who shoot the 3. If that’s right, why did they go out and got Tristan Thompson? Turn down Myles Turner, who does shoot the 3? They thought TT would bring defense, championship experience, and a little chip-on-the-shoulder the team needs. Hasn’t worked out great, but clearly they didn’t get him and haven’t played him for his outside shooting.

If all they want is shooting why aren’t Kornet and Wagner playing more???

It's not because Kanter can't shoot the 3, Timelord can't either. It's because he can't switch on multiple players on the perimeter. Brad's entire coaching philosophy is based around positionless basketball, where the team switches pretty much everything. With Kanter he had to change his philosophy because Kanter can't really defend on the perimeter and can't be switched on guards. Basically, Kanter, Drummond, those types of players, Brad doesn't know how to use, or his system doesn't allow them to play to their strengths.

If you look at Kanter, n the 45-odd games he's played for Portland, playing 26 mpg he's had a 24-30, a 20-20 and a 19-19 game and a total of 26 double doubles, as well as 13 games of 15+ rebounds and 4 games of 20+ rebounds. Compare that with his tenure with us, he had 9 double doubles in 58 games averaging 16 mpg.

Brad's system just doesn't maximize the strengths of someone like Kanter, because the system magnifies his weaknesses.

The entire "Kanter in Boston" situation kinda leaves me scratching my head. Danny knows Brad's system, so why did he ever acquire Kanter, knowing that Brad wouldn't use him a ton? Conversely, why is Brad such a stickler with his system instead of being more flexible based on the players Danny gives him?

I love Kanter, loved having him in Boston, was bummed to see him leave, and I wish he'd gotten more run while he was here. I understand that he has defensive limitations, but he was easy offense and gobbled up rebounds. And doesn't Thompson have similar defensive limitations? He's not a great perimeter defender, is he?

Who else was available/attainable with what we could offer? Off the top of my head we had the Room Exception and minimum salaries, and I was pretty excited when we got Kanter because the other options were pretty awful.

Obviously keeping Baynes would have been better (but that ship had already sailed), but who else was remaining after we signed Kemba? There was a lot of talk about guys like Willie Cauley-Stein and Boogie, or Robin Lopez (who I would have preferred to Kanter, but he went to play with his brother). I guess in hindsight trying to get Christian Wood (who the Pistons claimed off of waivers that July) would have been the best possible option, but he hadn't really made a name for himself yet. Kanter didn't fit at all, but he was at least playable.
I'm bitter.