Agree with Mike Gorman on Timelord and point guard?

[Celtics4ever]

As per usual, Mike Gorman is wrong with his hot takes lol. Williams can’t play the 4 defensively. To further complicate things, Cs don’t have a that could help with spacing so it would clog up everything.

And Grant Can?  Why do you think he can't please elaborate.

[Goldstar88]

As per usual, Mike Gorman is wrong with his hot takes lol. Williams can’t play the 4 defensively. To further complicate things, Cs don’t have a that could help with spacing so it would clog up everything.

And Grant Can?  Why do you think he can't please elaborate.

If Theis can play the 4, I see no reason why Timelord can’t if say Kornet is in at the 5.. Grant does space the floor, but he can’t defend anyone.

[Celtics2021]

As per usual, Mike Gorman is wrong with his hot takes lol. Williams can’t play the 4 defensively. To further complicate things, Cs don’t have a that could help with spacing so it would clog up everything.

And Grant Can?  Why do you think he can't please elaborate.

If Theis can play the 4, I see no reason why Timelord can’t if say Kornet is in at the 5.. Grant does space the floor, but he can’t defend anyone.

Theis couldn't play the 4.  That's one reason why he was traded -- putting him there was not a successful lineup.

[Vermont Green]

You have to look at both parts of what he said, not just the first part:

wants him as the power 4 beside a shooting center.

People are ignoring the "beside a shooting center" part.  We of course do not have a shooting center (well I guess Kornet but he is pretty much 3rd string) so the whole statement is a bit moot but if we did have a truly offensive minded center, I think Williams could play alongside of a player like that as the second big.  Say someone like Sabonis or even Embiid.

That said, I think the more natural fit is Williams as the Center beside a "shooting power forward" but in theory, it could be either way.

Right now, Williams seems to be used the most beside GWilliams or Ojeleye (shooting PFs who aren't big enough and don't shoot well enough to really qualify) or more recently (since losing Theis) as the only big.  Williams is definitely more center than PF to me but in the specific case that Gorman references, I think it would work.

[wdleehi]

I think Williams is always going to need to be part of a two man C.   I think he needs a larger, not going to move me, backup that is more then just big.   Matchup dependent.   

[Who]

You have to look at both parts of what he said, not just the first part:

wants him as the power 4 beside a shooting center.

People are ignoring the "beside a shooting center" part.  We of course do not have a shooting center (well I guess Kornet but he is pretty much 3rd string) so the whole statement is a bit moot but if we did have a truly offensive minded center, I think Williams could play alongside of a player like that as the second big.  Say someone like Sabonis or even Embiid.

That said, I think the more natural fit is Williams as the Center beside a "shooting power forward" but in theory, it could be either way.

Right now, Williams seems to be used the most beside GWilliams or Ojeleye (shooting PFs who aren't big enough and don't shoot well enough to really qualify) or more recently (since losing Theis) as the only big.  Williams is definitely more center than PF to me but in the specific case that Gorman references, I think it would work.

But what are you gaining?

What advantage to you gain individually for Rob Williams or collectively with Rob Williams as a PF vs at C.

In other words, what is the point of it.



As far as I see, 95% of the time it is a losing proposition for the Celtics. Why?

Because individually Rob Williams spends more time defensively doing things he is not so good at (defending on the perimeter) and less time defensively doing things he is good at (shot-blocking). The truth is that a more natural forward will add more to the team defensively than Rob Williams does because that forward will be able to defend in space better than Rob Williams can so team D will be superior.

So do you gain offensively? Rob Williams has little scoring ability so there is no change in his individual output. So is there a benefit to team offense? By going bigger and slower? It would take a hugely skilled (and likely mobile) center to make that work and even then it would still work better with a more skilled forward who can add to the offense more than Rob Williams can. So team offense will be superior with a natural forward. 

Rob Williams is in his perfect position as a center for today's NBA.

[W8ting2McHale]

You have to look at both parts of what he said, not just the first part:

wants him as the power 4 beside a shooting center.

People are ignoring the "beside a shooting center" part.  We of course do not have a shooting center (well I guess Kornet but he is pretty much 3rd string) so the whole statement is a bit moot but if we did have a truly offensive minded center, I think Williams could play alongside of a player like that as the second big.  Say someone like Sabonis or even Embiid.

That said, I think the more natural fit is Williams as the Center beside a "shooting power forward" but in theory, it could be either way.

Right now, Williams seems to be used the most beside GWilliams or Ojeleye (shooting PFs who aren't big enough and don't shoot well enough to really qualify) or more recently (since losing Theis) as the only big.  Williams is definitely more center than PF to me but in the specific case that Gorman references, I think it would work.

I suppose it’s possible that it could work, but all the trade proposals* to acquire a guy like that; Porzingis, KAT, and even Markkanen, have R-Williams getting shipped out in the deal. Can’t play alongside a stretch 5 if you’re gone! *At least the ones I have seen.

[gift]

Timelord is a 5, no doubt. I agree on the point guard point, though. A guy like Rondo, Rubio would be good for this squad.

[td450]

He said he thought he definitely could be a starter on a contending team but wants him as the power 4 beside a shooting center.  He also mentioned we need a point guard who thinks like a point guard.
 Thoughts?
 I honestly never considered Timelord at the 4. Do you guys think he could have the foot speed to do this? I thought it was interesting.
  Thanks!

 A point that plays like a point? What a concept ! I've said a million times that is the only quick fix I can see for this team.

. That's why I would have made a move for Haliburton in the draft.  Think Jordan will do us a favor and trade Lamelo to us lol?

.Tatum and Brown just don't elevate guys. They need help from a world class PG.
.

I'm still angry about us not doing what it takes to get Haliburton. He'd have been perfect.

The problem is that Tatum, Smart and Walker together strangle the team's offense. The best version of this team is to start Smart and Langford, have Walker become a sniper off the bench and never play Tatum, Smart and Walker at the same time.

We then hope that Langford emerges offensively to become an opportunistic scorer (12-14 ppg), and that Tatum pounds the ball less. That makes Brown a power forward. It's not ideal for him, but he's easily our best guy at that spot.

If next year, we can get a big two way point guard who can create , or get a real PF, all the better.

[Vermont Green]

You have to look at both parts of what he said, not just the first part:

wants him as the power 4 beside a shooting center.

People are ignoring the "beside a shooting center" part.  We of course do not have a shooting center (well I guess Kornet but he is pretty much 3rd string) so the whole statement is a bit moot but if we did have a truly offensive minded center, I think Williams could play alongside of a player like that as the second big.  Say someone like Sabonis or even Embiid.

That said, I think the more natural fit is Williams as the Center beside a "shooting power forward" but in theory, it could be either way.

Right now, Williams seems to be used the most beside GWilliams or Ojeleye (shooting PFs who aren't big enough and don't shoot well enough to really qualify) or more recently (since losing Theis) as the only big.  Williams is definitely more center than PF to me but in the specific case that Gorman references, I think it would work.

But what are you gaining?

Well, we would have to "gain" a shooting center which would be an improvement over our current collection of bigs.  I did not hear the exact quote but I took this to mean that he wants the shooting center more than he wants Williams at PF.

As I said, I agree that Williams needs to paired with another big who has some offensive ability, PF or C.  Williams is more defense (blocks), rebounding, picks.  Whether you call him the C or the PF, is not the main point but the point is the other big needs to be able to score on more than alley-oops or put-backs (so not Thompson).

[CFAN38]

You have to look at both parts of what he said, not just the first part:

wants him as the power 4 beside a shooting center.

People are ignoring the "beside a shooting center" part.  We of course do not have a shooting center (well I guess Kornet but he is pretty much 3rd string) so the whole statement is a bit moot but if we did have a truly offensive minded center, I think Williams could play alongside of a player like that as the second big.  Say someone like Sabonis or even Embiid.

That said, I think the more natural fit is Williams as the Center beside a "shooting power forward" but in theory, it could be either way.

Right now, Williams seems to be used the most beside GWilliams or Ojeleye (shooting PFs who aren't big enough and don't shoot well enough to really qualify) or more recently (since losing Theis) as the only big.  Williams is definitely more center than PF to me but in the specific case that Gorman references, I think it would work.

But what are you gaining?

Well, we would have to "gain" a shooting center which would be an improvement over our current collection of bigs.  I did not hear the exact quote but I took this to mean that he wants the shooting center more than he wants Williams at PF.

As I said, I agree that Williams needs to paired with another big who has some offensive ability, PF or C.  Williams is more defense (blocks), rebounding, picks.  Whether you call him the C or the PF, is not the main point but the point is the other big needs to be able to score on more than alley-oops or put-backs (so not Thompson).

I lost a long post to this thread....

Short answer Kemba is a poor fit with the Js. Kemba is a style of PG who is really an undersized two who needs to be the central engine of his team. Iverson is the example of this style of guard at the highest level. This isn't a knock on Walker its just who he is and has always been as a player.

The rumored attempt in the off-season to trade for Holiday if true could have been DAs way of pivoting away from Kemba's obvious health issues and less obvious fit issues. While Holiday also isn't a traditional PG he is more comfortable without the ball and instead of being a liability on D he is elite.

As for R Will, he is a 5 in every sense of the position. In the past when the league was bigger with less spacing maybe he would have been a 4 on defense but now he very clearly is a drop rim protector.

This thread does bring back into discussion what the Cs ideal construction is around the Js. I still say its a non defensive liability bigger point, a floor spacing 3/4, spark plug PG 6th man, and if Williams is the starting 5 they need a Baynes like big 5 backing him up.   

[smokeablount]

He said he thought he definitely could be a starter on a contending team but wants him as the power 4 beside a shooting center.  He also mentioned we need a point guard who thinks like a point guard.
 Thoughts?
 I honestly never considered Timelord at the 4. Do you guys think he could have the foot speed to do this? I thought it was interesting.
  Thanks!

 A point that plays like a point? What a concept ! I've said a million times that is the only quick fix I can see for this team.

. That's why I would have made a move for Haliburton in the draft.  Think Jordan will do us a favor and trade Lamelo to us lol?

.Tatum and Brown just don't elevate guys. They need help from a world class PG.
.

I'm still angry about us not doing what it takes to get Haliburton. He'd have been perfect.

The problem is that Tatum, Smart and Walker together strangle the team's offense. The best version of this team is to start Smart and Langford, have Walker become a sniper off the bench and never play Tatum, Smart and Walker at the same time.

We then hope that Langford emerges offensively to become an opportunistic scorer (12-14 ppg), and that Tatum pounds the ball less. That makes Brown a power forward. It's not ideal for him, but he's easily our best guy at that spot.

If next year, we can get a big two way point guard who can create , or get a real PF, all the better.

Wouldn’t you start Fournier over Romeo for the near future?

[PhoSita]

I think these sound like old man takes rooted in an understanding of the league that was most on-point about 20 years ago.

I say this with love.  Mike Gorman has watched and forgotten more basketball games than I'll ever watch.

Rob Williams is not a PF and the idea that point guards need to be about passing first and scoring second is outdated. 

You need your point guard to be able to score from all over; you just can't have a primary ballhandler who doesn't also create look for teammates.


The problem the Celts have is that their top point guard is no longer a deadly scorer due to his knee injury, which limits his ability to draw defenders and create open looks for others.  The second best ballhandling guard on the team, Smart, is not quick enough to regularly get by guys and draw help inside, nor is he a good enough pull up shooter to punish teams for giving him space.  He's just not a guy who can run your offense.  He is a decent secondary or tertiary ball-handler in a lineup with multiple elite scorers.

[wiley]

trade someone for Scottie Barnes and start Barnes and R. Williams in the frontcourt...Barnes a playmaking 4 and excellent defender

[Jiri Welsch]

You need your point guard to be able to score from all over; you just can't have a primary ballhandler who doesn't also create look for teammates.


The problem the Celts have is that their top point guard is no longer a deadly scorer due to his knee injury, which limits his ability to draw defenders and create open looks for others.  The second best ballhandling guard on the team, Smart, is not quick enough to regularly get by guys and draw help inside, nor is he a good enough pull up shooter to punish teams for giving him space.  He's just not a guy who can run your offense.  He is a decent secondary or tertiary ball-handler in a lineup with multiple elite scorers.

I don't agree with this. IMO the problem isn't that Kemba is a bad scorer all of the sudden (he is averaging ~18 PPG when he plays). The problem is the Celtics have no one that can consistently break down defenses, get into the paint, and then find our two superstars a handful of wide open looks per game. The guys who push the ball in transition and get into the paint on a regular basis are Tatum and Brown. We need those guys to be transition trailers half the time. Or to be able to stand around the perimeter or make back door cuts and get a few buckets each per game due to someone else's hard work.

Every possession this year is a struggle because we don't have a PG that can legit run an offense.