Author Topic: Which of these Jaylen trades, if any, do you make?  (Read 14223 times)

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Re: Which of these Jaylen trades, if any, do you make?
« Reply #45 on: May 27, 2021, 02:08:43 AM »

Offline Ogaju

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Somebody said they would not trade BROWN for Donovan Mitchell...lol

Mitchell > Brown

Re: Which of these Jaylen trades, if any, do you make?
« Reply #46 on: May 27, 2021, 02:41:39 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Somebody said they would not trade BROWN for Donovan Mitchell...lol

Mitchell > Brown
At what exactly? Scores slightly more at a worse efficiency, gets more assists but with a massively higher usage rate, is a significantly worse rebounder and very significantly worse at defence, and is 5 inches shorter as well, and is a month older.

They're basically identical tier players, Mitchell just has a much better supporting cast. Best defender in the comp, a good all-round PG, three great wing shooters who can score elsewhere too, and versatile role players to boot.
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PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
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Re: Which of these Jaylen trades, if any, do you make?
« Reply #47 on: May 27, 2021, 07:47:48 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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Somebody said they would not trade BROWN for Donovan Mitchell...lol

Mitchell > Brown


Most teams wouldn't.   Yes, Mitchell is a better offensive player but is he that much better as Tatum's running mate vs. how much better defensively Brown is. 


Re: Which of these Jaylen trades, if any, do you make?
« Reply #48 on: May 27, 2021, 09:26:00 AM »

Offline nyceltsfan

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I did not see a choice of a trade surrounding Brown for KAT.

Brown for KAT works straight up.  Also, it looks like Kemba and Brown for KAT and Russell works.  If we are not giving enough in that trade, adding Nesmith and/or Pritchard also makes it work.  We could also send picks either way to make it work.

I might be willing to entertain this (although, I am not fully on board with trading Brown) to get more balance on the roster.  At that point, I think we would have to think about trading Timelord for a shooter.

I'm curious what others think about this move.

Re: Which of these Jaylen trades, if any, do you make?
« Reply #49 on: May 27, 2021, 09:34:35 AM »

Offline johnnygreen

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I’m sorry guys, but this isn’t close. I’d easily take Donovan Mitchell over Jaylen. You can’t simply look at numbers when comparing/evaluating players. It’s the intangibles that take players to the next level. I’d favor Mitchell over Brown in the following:
•   Basketball IQ
•   Basketball instincts
•   Playmaking/creating offense
•   Making players around you better

Re: Which of these Jaylen trades, if any, do you make?
« Reply #50 on: May 27, 2021, 09:38:50 AM »

Offline A Future of Stevens

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As Jackie Mac said on a Simmons podcast, "Jaylen is part of the solution, not the problem."

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Re: Which of these Jaylen trades, if any, do you make?
« Reply #51 on: May 27, 2021, 09:45:36 AM »

Offline td450

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I’m sorry guys, but this isn’t close. I’d easily take Donovan Mitchell over Jaylen. You can’t simply look at numbers when comparing/evaluating players. It’s the intangibles that take players to the next level. I’d favor Mitchell over Brown in the following:
•   Basketball IQ
•   Basketball instincts
•   Playmaking/creating offense
•   Making players around you better

If you switched the two players, Utah would be better. Mitchell is surrounded by quality role players who make good decisions and can really shoot. That makes a player look like they are smarter players. Jaylen would thrive with those types of teammates too.

Mitchell is impressive, but Jaylen is a considerably bigger guy and a much better and more versatile defender.

Re: Which of these Jaylen trades, if any, do you make?
« Reply #52 on: May 27, 2021, 09:58:22 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Brown is going nowhere

I have him higher in team rankings than Tatum

Its not all about talent.  Brown also is fierce

If one must go. Trade Tatum

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Re: Which of these Jaylen trades, if any, do you make?
« Reply #53 on: May 27, 2021, 10:57:56 AM »

Online Who

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I’m sorry guys, but this isn’t close. I’d easily take Donovan Mitchell over Jaylen. You can’t simply look at numbers when comparing/evaluating players. It’s the intangibles that take players to the next level. I’d favor Mitchell over Brown in the following:
•   Basketball IQ
•   Basketball instincts
•   Playmaking/creating offense
•   Making players around you better

If you switched the two players, Utah would be better. Mitchell is surrounded by quality role players who make good decisions and can really shoot. That makes a player look like they are smarter players. Jaylen would thrive with those types of teammates too.

Mitchell is impressive, but Jaylen is a considerably bigger guy and a much better and more versatile defender.

I am not sold on this.

I would say they are on a similar level talent wise but possess a different set of skills. Mitchell's skills are more conducive to winning when he is a #1 offensive option role while Jaylen's are more conducive to winning when he is a #2 guy. So it depends more on your roster construction than a straight comparison of who is better.

Donovan Mitchell can add more to a team as a #1 because of his superior ball-handling which leads to superior self-generated shot attempts & improved offensive opportunities for his teammates from his playmaking out of these ball-handling sequences.

Jaylen is superior at being effective with less touches & less time dribbling the ball. So he is better playing on a team with multiple offensive options because he can share the pie better.

Donovan Mitchell can share by being the man. By being the creator that everything revolves around.

Jaylen Brown shares by NOT being the man. By playing more off the ball and being an assassin when he gets the ball. By allowing more talented teammates room to express themselves in a way that Donovan Mitchell does NOT.

But Donovan Mitchell allows less talented teammates more room to express themselves (spot up shooters & rim rollers) by being the man. By taking on that extra offensive responsibility, reducing the offensive burden on less gifted teammates and creating easier opportunities for them via his ball-handling, shot creation and playmaking.

So to me this is more a question of roster composition than a straight which player is better. It is more complicated than that. In some situations, Donovan Mitchell is better. In other situations, Jaylen Brown is the better player.

Re: Which of these Jaylen trades, if any, do you make?
« Reply #54 on: May 27, 2021, 11:24:33 AM »

Offline Somebody

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I’m sorry guys, but this isn’t close. I’d easily take Donovan Mitchell over Jaylen. You can’t simply look at numbers when comparing/evaluating players. It’s the intangibles that take players to the next level. I’d favor Mitchell over Brown in the following:
•   Basketball IQ
•   Basketball instincts
•   Playmaking/creating offense
•   Making players around you better
You also can't just throw out these arbitrary qualifiers without using any sort of quantitative analysis. You can have all the basketball IQ, instincts, playmaking in the world and still be a worse player than someone else because you can't help a team outscore their opponent on the court as well as the other guy for teams with title aspirations.

I've been a broken record about these types of floor raisers who don't bring much to high-level teams, but I guess I'll make a quick recap about what these players actually bring to the table when it comes to improving the title odds of a team.

Statistical profile of Donovan Mitchell this season (per 100 possessions)
Box: 38.5 points, 10.7 shots created (97th percentile), 54.8% offensive load (97th percentile), -0.3% rTS
Non-box: +3.6 OEPM (96th percentile), -0.7 DEPM (40th percentile), +2.9 EPM (93rd percentile)

Statistical profile of Jaylen Brown this season (per 100 possessions)
Box: 34.9 points, 6.8 shots created (86th percentile), 43.2% offensive load (88th percentile), +1.4% rTS
Non-box: +2.0 OEPM (91st percentile), 0.0 DEPM (60th percentile), +2.0 EPM (88th percentile)

So what we can see from the numbers is that Mitchell's a considerably better on-ball star than Brown: even though Brown's numbers are likely 'deflated' compared to Mitchell's due to Stevens using him as a 3rd option, Mitchell is still a significantly stronger creator than Brown and a comparable scorer at worst (assuming that Brown doesn't fall off when he's a 1st option in terms of scoring, which is optimistic but not impossible from this comparison of a star wing moving from a complementary role into a primary one). But is that advantage really important for most high-level teams?

Mitchell's combination of average efficiency volume scoring and good but not great playmaking (he's closer to players like Tatum and Kawhi as playmakers) is valuable on teams devoid of offensive talent: his skillset gives those teams a focal point to run their offence through and it usually yields an average offence unless he's surrounded by an excellent supporting cast: before the Jazz started playing offensively-inclined lineups with 4-5 really good offensive players on their roster to complement Mitchell last season, the Jazz hovered around league average in team ORTG despite having the type of supporting cast that top offensive players have taken to elite heights with quality three point shooters and a great screen setter in Gobert. Moreover, his impact on the Jazz attack has dwindled as he got better and better teammates. The Jazz averaged 118.5 ORTG with Mitchell on the floor this season, but they were still elite without him: the Jazz had a 119.0 ORTG when Mitchell was off the floor! Obviously lineups with Mitchell faced tougher defences, so the Jazz are definitely better with Mitchell, but this strongly suggests that the Jazz have a really good team even when Mitchell is unavailable.

On the other hand, Brown may not be the best floor raiser ever (although there's a strong argument to be made that Stevens is suppressing his ability with how much he's stuck in an idle off-ball role on offence with absolutely no off-ball sets run for him to utilise his talents that don't take away from on-ball actions for talented offensive teammates), but his on/off-ball hybrid attack is valuable on better and better teams: his off-ball strengths (eg. shooting, ability to cut and fly off screens and attack off the catch with his improved handle, and even some extra passing that is pretty similar to Mitchell's due to the latter specialising in specific on-ball reads) all scale well on high-level teams stocked with offensive talent because you can still get most of his offensive value without taking away from the offensive talent you have in the first place. Below shows the ORTGs of some Celtics lineups this season (Kemba missed significant time this season, so I'm not using him as a qualifier because the sample size is wonky):

Tatum, Jaylen on: 117.3 ORTG
Tatum on, Jaylen off: 116.1 ORTG

Now a 1.2 point drop might not seem significant, but it's also not negligible: Tatum + Jaylen lineups play like some of the very best offensive teams in the league (eg. Blazers, Jazz, Bucks, Clippers, Suns, Nuggets) while Tatum lineups without Jaylen are closer to teams like the Hawks and Mavericks. When you apply context to the numbers (Brown has been underutilised by Stevens this season), the fact that Jaylen has been able to add a point to strong offensive lineups is very impressive. As for his defence, while his regular season adjusted +/- numbers paint him as an average defender, they tend to understate his defensive value in the playoffs: his ability to stifle a variety of offensive players one on one makes him one of the most valuable non-big defenders in the postseason (538's RAPTOR also rates him as a good to borderline elite defender in both of his ECF runs in '18 and '20 if you want a slightly larger sample size). So while Brown might still be a worse offensive player even if you take his ability to lift better and better offences into account, his defence more than makes up for this gap when you consider that Mitchell is more or less an average defender.

So after looking at the data and using it to supplement what we know from watching both players play, a reasonable conclusion would be that Brown is around Mitchell's level even with Brad Stevens depressing his impact on the court. When you take that into account as well as the fact that Jaylen is playing in a position that teams are desperate to stack up talent in, it's not crazy at all to take Jaylen Brown over Donovan Mitchell.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2021, 11:40:50 AM by Somebody »
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: Which of these Jaylen trades, if any, do you make?
« Reply #55 on: May 27, 2021, 11:29:10 AM »

Offline Somebody

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I’m sorry guys, but this isn’t close. I’d easily take Donovan Mitchell over Jaylen. You can’t simply look at numbers when comparing/evaluating players. It’s the intangibles that take players to the next level. I’d favor Mitchell over Brown in the following:
•   Basketball IQ
•   Basketball instincts
•   Playmaking/creating offense
•   Making players around you better

If you switched the two players, Utah would be better. Mitchell is surrounded by quality role players who make good decisions and can really shoot. That makes a player look like they are smarter players. Jaylen would thrive with those types of teammates too.

Mitchell is impressive, but Jaylen is a considerably bigger guy and a much better and more versatile defender.

I am not sold on this.

I would say they are on a similar level talent wise but possess a different set of skills. Mitchell's skills are more conducive to winning when he is a #1 offensive option role while Jaylen's are more conducive to winning when he is a #2 guy. So it depends more on your roster construction than a straight comparison of who is better.

Donovan Mitchell can add more to a team as a #1 because of his superior ball-handling which leads to superior self-generated shot attempts & improved offensive opportunities for his teammates from his playmaking out of these ball-handling sequences.

Jaylen is superior at being effective with less touches & less time dribbling the ball. So he is better playing on a team with multiple offensive options because he can share the pie better.

Donovan Mitchell can share by being the man. By being the creator that everything revolves around.

Jaylen Brown shares by NOT being the man. By playing more off the ball and being an assassin when he gets the ball. By allowing more talented teammates room to express themselves in a way that Donovan Mitchell does NOT.

But Donovan Mitchell allows less talented teammates more room to express themselves (spot up shooters & rim rollers) by being the man. By taking on that extra offensive responsibility, reducing the offensive burden on less gifted teammates and creating easier opportunities for them via his ball-handling, shot creation and playmaking.

So to me this is more a question of roster composition than a straight which player is better. It is more complicated than that. In some situations, Donovan Mitchell is better. In other situations, Jaylen Brown is the better player.
But how many teams can actually win with Mitchell as their #1 offensive player? Players of this calibre are usually the 2nd, 3rd or even 4th best players on championship level teams, so it's generally preferable for a player on this level to possess skills that scale well next to better and better teammates instead of having a skillset that demands a team to build around him. And going by that logic, I would say that Jaylen Brown is the better basketball player overall.
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: Which of these Jaylen trades, if any, do you make?
« Reply #56 on: May 27, 2021, 11:54:53 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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(assuming that Brown doesn't fall off when he's a 1st option in terms of scoring, which is optimistic but not impossible from this comparison of a star wing moving from a complementary role into a primary one).
In games this year that Tatum missed but Brown played, hence Brown becoming the #1 option Brown averaged just over 30 PPG,, just under 8 RPG and around 3.5 APG with a TS% around 64%.

Small sample size of 7 games, but it seems to be at least an extremely good sign that Brown can elevate to that #1 scoring position

Re: Which of these Jaylen trades, if any, do you make?
« Reply #57 on: May 27, 2021, 11:58:39 AM »

Offline Somebody

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(assuming that Brown doesn't fall off when he's a 1st option in terms of scoring, which is optimistic but not impossible from this comparison of a star wing moving from a complementary role into a primary one).
In games this year that Tatum missed but Brown played, hence Brown becoming the #1 option Brown averaged just over 30 PPG,, just under 8 RPG and around 3.5 APG with a TS% around 64%.

Small sample size of 7 games, but seems to be at least extremely good signs that Brown can elevate to that #1 scoring position
Yeah I forgot that I can search his stats in games where Tatum was out, brain fart while I was writing this wall of text.
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: Which of these Jaylen trades, if any, do you make?
« Reply #58 on: May 27, 2021, 12:27:10 PM »

Offline johnnygreen

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(assuming that Brown doesn't fall off when he's a 1st option in terms of scoring, which is optimistic but not impossible from this comparison of a star wing moving from a complementary role into a primary one).
In games this year that Tatum missed but Brown played, hence Brown becoming the #1 option Brown averaged just over 30 PPG,, just under 8 RPG and around 3.5 APG with a TS% around 64%.

Small sample size of 7 games, but it seems to be at least an extremely good sign that Brown can elevate to that #1 scoring position

So we're just going to ignore the fact that the team was 2-5 in those games? I could care less if Brown averaged 30 ppg, if the team is losing.

Re: Which of these Jaylen trades, if any, do you make?
« Reply #59 on: May 27, 2021, 12:32:40 PM »

Offline johnnygreen

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I’m sorry guys, but this isn’t close. I’d easily take Donovan Mitchell over Jaylen. You can’t simply look at numbers when comparing/evaluating players. It’s the intangibles that take players to the next level. I’d favor Mitchell over Brown in the following:
•   Basketball IQ
•   Basketball instincts
•   Playmaking/creating offense
•   Making players around you better

If you switched the two players, Utah would be better. Mitchell is surrounded by quality role players who make good decisions and can really shoot. That makes a player look like they are smarter players. Jaylen would thrive with those types of teammates too.

Mitchell is impressive, but Jaylen is a considerably bigger guy and a much better and more versatile defender.

I am not sold on this.

I would say they are on a similar level talent wise but possess a different set of skills. Mitchell's skills are more conducive to winning when he is a #1 offensive option role while Jaylen's are more conducive to winning when he is a #2 guy. So it depends more on your roster construction than a straight comparison of who is better.

Donovan Mitchell can add more to a team as a #1 because of his superior ball-handling which leads to superior self-generated shot attempts & improved offensive opportunities for his teammates from his playmaking out of these ball-handling sequences.

Jaylen is superior at being effective with less touches & less time dribbling the ball. So he is better playing on a team with multiple offensive options because he can share the pie better.

Donovan Mitchell can share by being the man. By being the creator that everything revolves around.

Jaylen Brown shares by NOT being the man. By playing more off the ball and being an assassin when he gets the ball. By allowing more talented teammates room to express themselves in a way that Donovan Mitchell does NOT.

But Donovan Mitchell allows less talented teammates more room to express themselves (spot up shooters & rim rollers) by being the man. By taking on that extra offensive responsibility, reducing the offensive burden on less gifted teammates and creating easier opportunities for them via his ball-handling, shot creation and playmaking.

So to me this is more a question of roster composition than a straight which player is better. It is more complicated than that. In some situations, Donovan Mitchell is better. In other situations, Jaylen Brown is the better player.
But how many teams can actually win with Mitchell as their #1 offensive player? Players of this calibre are usually the 2nd, 3rd or even 4th best players on championship level teams, so it's generally preferable for a player on this level to possess skills that scale well next to better and better teammates instead of having a skillset that demands a team to build around him. And going by that logic, I would say that Jaylen Brown is the better basketball player overall.

Mitchell as the #1 option, helped lead his team to the best record in the league. Meanwhile, Jaylen as the #2 option, needed to win a play-in tournament game just to make the playoffs.