Bench Kemba

[td450]

Tired of watching the brick show/turnstile parade. It demoralizes the team and takes shots away from Brown and Tatum.

Pritchard is the more efficient player right now. Start him! We need his efficiency with the high-volume scorers in Brown and Tatum. And we need Kemba's volume in the second unit, where he will also be less exposed.

Let's take the heat off Walker for a bit and see if he can get into a groove against other teams' benches. And, just maybe, he gets some confidence back and breaks free of this malaise.

This is a developmental year at this point. Need to keep him as a starter so that his trade value does not diminish anymore than it already has. Danny has to make it a priority to move him in the off-season. He’s been back for months, his shooting/defense is still mediocre and he does not fit in with this team.

Leaving out his first few games back returning from injury, Kemba's stats across the board are pretty much at his career averages. I understand the desire to bring him off the bench as an instant offense piece, but that is what Fournier was brought here for (and he was excelling in that role before H&SP knocked him out).

Anyway, I am responding to your message because I agree with your general point. If we fail to move him this offseason, then I would be 'okay' with Kemba being a super-6th man; but, if the idea is to try and move him, then we absolutely need to keep him as a starter. I've said it a million times, but this team's ceiling depends a lot on how good Kemba can be. And while he is basically at his career averages right now, we actually need him to be prime-Kemba to have any chance of competing in the playoffs.

I also don't think enough is being said of Brown and especially Tatum. Even though Brown has been solid, he disappears for far too long during important stretches. And don't even get me started on Tatum - dude is padding his stats to make the All-NBA incentives ($6M extra/yr) and he is basically prime Monta Ellis at this point. I basically feel the same as Perk does at this point.

To your point about Brown, I'm mystified as to how the team manages whether he is part of the offensive flow or not. Tatum, Walker and Smart are all prone to pounding the rock, and long stretches go by where Stevens seems to tolerate obviously stalled ball and player movement.

Is Brown standing in the corner because he has no choice, or is he being passive? I don't know. When players make good cuts, especially Brown, who is easily their most physical player, they rarely get the ball. I yell at my TV several times a game over this.

I am sick of watching him carve up teams in the first quarter, then not touch the ball for most of the rest of the game.

Last night he was definitely being passive. Brown has had this habit since his rookie year where sometimes he drifts in and out of games. It first manifests itself on defense then it affects his offense. He did a lot of work to eliminate it early in the season when he was really switched on and aggressive, especially on the defensive end. But as the season has gone on, despite his making the All Star team, as the team's fortunes have fluctuated so has his mood. Last night it didn't help that the Cs, mainly Smart, were trying a lot of high risk passes trying to thread bounce passes to cutters and ending up turning the ball over. They had a lot more off ball movement last night than they have had in the past and it had started with the Houston game. But once they turned the ball over and Philly surged to 21-2 run in the 2nd quarter their heads dropped and that was the end of it.

I watched the game last night. I thought his defense was exceptional.

It is probably true that Jaylen deserves some of the criticism for not being part of the offense for long stretches. Aggressive players find the ball.

I have come to the conclusion that Tatum, Walker and Smart collectively are the problem with this team. Individually, they are all impressive in their own way, but they each suffer from the same bad ball movement habits, and because they control the ball so much, it accumulates into terrible offensive flow.

If we replaced any one of them, things would improve. They should never be on the floor at the same time.

[ozgod]

Tired of watching the brick show/turnstile parade. It demoralizes the team and takes shots away from Brown and Tatum.

Pritchard is the more efficient player right now. Start him! We need his efficiency with the high-volume scorers in Brown and Tatum. And we need Kemba's volume in the second unit, where he will also be less exposed.

Let's take the heat off Walker for a bit and see if he can get into a groove against other teams' benches. And, just maybe, he gets some confidence back and breaks free of this malaise.

This is a developmental year at this point. Need to keep him as a starter so that his trade value does not diminish anymore than it already has. Danny has to make it a priority to move him in the off-season. He’s been back for months, his shooting/defense is still mediocre and he does not fit in with this team.

Leaving out his first few games back returning from injury, Kemba's stats across the board are pretty much at his career averages. I understand the desire to bring him off the bench as an instant offense piece, but that is what Fournier was brought here for (and he was excelling in that role before H&SP knocked him out).

Anyway, I am responding to your message because I agree with your general point. If we fail to move him this offseason, then I would be 'okay' with Kemba being a super-6th man; but, if the idea is to try and move him, then we absolutely need to keep him as a starter. I've said it a million times, but this team's ceiling depends a lot on how good Kemba can be. And while he is basically at his career averages right now, we actually need him to be prime-Kemba to have any chance of competing in the playoffs.

I also don't think enough is being said of Brown and especially Tatum. Even though Brown has been solid, he disappears for far too long during important stretches. And don't even get me started on Tatum - dude is padding his stats to make the All-NBA incentives ($6M extra/yr) and he is basically prime Monta Ellis at this point. I basically feel the same as Perk does at this point.

To your point about Brown, I'm mystified as to how the team manages whether he is part of the offensive flow or not. Tatum, Walker and Smart are all prone to pounding the rock, and long stretches go by where Stevens seems to tolerate obviously stalled ball and player movement.

Is Brown standing in the corner because he has no choice, or is he being passive? I don't know. When players make good cuts, especially Brown, who is easily their most physical player, they rarely get the ball. I yell at my TV several times a game over this.

I am sick of watching him carve up teams in the first quarter, then not touch the ball for most of the rest of the game.

Last night he was definitely being passive. Brown has had this habit since his rookie year where sometimes he drifts in and out of games. It first manifests itself on defense then it affects his offense. He did a lot of work to eliminate it early in the season when he was really switched on and aggressive, especially on the defensive end. But as the season has gone on, despite his making the All Star team, as the team's fortunes have fluctuated so has his mood. Last night it didn't help that the Cs, mainly Smart, were trying a lot of high risk passes trying to thread bounce passes to cutters and ending up turning the ball over. They had a lot more off ball movement last night than they have had in the past and it had started with the Houston game. But once they turned the ball over and Philly surged to 21-2 run in the 2nd quarter their heads dropped and that was the end of it.

I watched the game last night. I thought his defense was exceptional.

It is probably true that Jaylen deserves some of the criticism for not being part of the offense for long stretches. Aggressive players find the ball.

I have come to the conclusion that Tatum, Walker and Smart collectively are the problem with this team. Individually, they are al impressive in their own way, but they all suffer from the same bad ball movement habits, and because they control the ball so much, it accumulates into terrible offensive flow.

If we replaced any one of them, things would improve. They should never be on the floor at the same time.

I felt there were a number of switches where he just gave up on switching. It was very noticeable in the game thread. He just didn't seem his normal self. This isn't a knock on Jaylen, he's normally our best on ball defender but last night he was definitely off. Not all the time but his concentration seemed to drift. It happens.

[Who]

Yep, I'm in. I was against it earlier in the season and wanted to give Kemba more time (20 games or so) to prove himself / recover post injury. He has had enough time.

And while he has improved, he has not improved enough to be an untouchable. He is playing well but so is Pritchard and frankly I believe the balance of the team would be better with Pritchard starting (low minutes 15-20mpg) and Kemba coming in a super scoring sixth man (playing 27-30mpg). In this scenario, I would start Fournier alongside Pritchard and bring Smart off the bench also.

[Vermont Green]

Kemba has not returned to full form.  As another post detailed, he was actually quite good last year with many of the same players.  In terms of the core rotation, Hayward and now Theis are out, Fournier and Thompson are in.  He has not been that same player yet this season.  Close but not quite there.

That said, I don't think having him play off the bench is the solution.  If there is any change, we could have Fournier start in the Hayward role and have Smart off the bench like last season.  But I don't think we are better with Kemba off the bench.  All the problems will be the same.  I don't see that fixing anything.

In terms of the "politics" I will call it, yes, having Kemba off the bench may hurt his perceived value around the league.  That would not stop me from doing what is best for the team but in this case, I don't think it would really help the team.

I think the right thing is to keep riding Kemba as a starter.  Likely look to trade him in the off season, but not necessarily.  I feel if he plays out the year without injury, there will be some reasonable opportunities to trade him.

Since March 1, he is averaging 18.5 pts on 40%/36%/95% shooting with 5 assts, 1 steal, in 32 min per game.   That is not terrible.  If he was just a tick better in efficiency, maybe make one more shot per game, maybe a couple more FT per game, and he is right in the upper tier of PGs.

The 40% overall shooting stands out.  He is not finishing at the rim like he used to.  This may be fixable.  Again, just make one more per game and maybe draw one more foul, and it really changes things.  Then maybe make one more 3 every other game, and he is back to all star level.  A lot of "ifs", I know but just trying to illustrate that it wouldn't take all that much to make a big difference.

[jambr380]

Also how many players have ended up being "bad fits" next to the Jays? Kyrie, Gordon, now Kemba? Everyone who plays next to the Jays becomes a wilting flower? At this point we will run out of players to pair with them if everyone is a bad fit.

You wrote a very solid post, but this part is awesome. I love the Jays, but at some point, we need to stop using the excuse that 'x' is a bad fit next to them. I don't know if this is a coaching problem or a Jays problem, but three star level players should be able to play together.

[Neurotic Guy]

Yep, I'm in. I was against it earlier in the season and wanted to give Kemba more time (20 games or so) to prove himself / recover post injury. He has had enough time.

And while he has improved, he has not improved enough to be an untouchable. He is playing well but so is Pritchard and frankly I believe the balance of the team would be better with Pritchard starting (low minutes 15-20mpg) and Kemba coming in a super scoring sixth man (playing 27-30mpg). In this scenario, I would start Fournier alongside Pritchard and bring Smart off the bench also.

I like this.   I think a shake-up is needed -- this would not only be a shake-up but creates a dynamic starting lineup with experience and talent coming off the bench.   Kemba should embrace the role and it will be easier for Brad to keep his minutes managed.

[kraidstar]

Tired of watching the brick show/turnstile parade. It demoralizes the team and takes shots away from Brown and Tatum.

Pritchard is the more efficient player right now. Start him! We need his efficiency with the high-volume scorers in Brown and Tatum. And we need Kemba's volume in the second unit, where he will also be less exposed.

Let's take the heat off Walker for a bit and see if he can get into a groove against other teams' benches. And, just maybe, he gets some confidence back and breaks free of this malaise.

This is a developmental year at this point. Need to keep him as a starter so that his trade value does not diminish anymore than it already has. Danny has to make it a priority to move him in the off-season. He’s been back for months, his shooting/defense is still mediocre and he does not fit in with this team.

Honestly I think his current role and trajectory are hurting his trade value. It's just not working. He is pressing. When he did get open shots last night he bricked them badly. And these were huge. momentum-changing shots. Guy is a mental wreck right now. Let's take some pressure off. Shaking things up could help the whole club.

And isn't that what everyone keeps talking about? People want changes and trades etc. They want accountability (and the players need that too). One easy such move is to start the kid, Pritchard - maybe alongside Smart for support - and see what we have there - sometimes to develop you need to tear things down, even if it's temporary.

[td450]

Also how many players have ended up being "bad fits" next to the Jays? Kyrie, Gordon, now Kemba? Everyone who plays next to the Jays becomes a wilting flower? At this point we will run out of players to pair with them if everyone is a bad fit.

You wrote a very solid post, but this part is awesome. I love the Jays, but at some point, we need to stop using the excuse that 'x' is a bad fit next to them. I don't know if this is a coaching problem or a Jays problem, but three star level players should be able to play together.

Has anyone ever said that Gordon Hayward was a bad fit for the C's? Other than being injury prone, he was generally considered an ideal fit. We probably could have kept him if we hadn't added Kemba.

Kyrie's issues were not about fit on the court. They were about him as an unstable personality and leader. This neither began nor ended with Boston.

This is just about Kemba.

[kraidstar]

Also how many players have ended up being "bad fits" next to the Jays? Kyrie, Gordon, now Kemba? Everyone who plays next to the Jays becomes a wilting flower? At this point we will run out of players to pair with them if everyone is a bad fit.

You wrote a very solid post, but this part is awesome. I love the Jays, but at some point, we need to stop using the excuse that 'x' is a bad fit next to them. I don't know if this is a coaching problem or a Jays problem, but three star level players should be able to play together.

Has anyone ever said that Gordon Hayward was a bad fit for the C's? Other than being injury prone, he was generally considered an ideal fit. We probably could have kept him if we hadn't added Kemba.

Kyrie's issues were not about fit on the court. They were about him as an unstable personality and leader. This neither began nor ended with Boston.

This is just about Kemba.

The salary cap shrinking didn't help the cause resigning Hayward either  It's like the opposite luck the Warriors had when they signed Durant that year when the cap exploded.

Regarding Kyrie and Hayward, the truth of the matter is they both left. Kyrie had some sort of agenda related to NY, and Hayward got more $ in Charlotte. But... Charlotte? You have to wonder if there wasn't more to it than money for him to leave for there. it's a strange career move when many guys sacrifice to play on contenders. If Kyrie and hayward were really happy here the odds of them leaving are lower. Same with Horford.

We don't fully know what happened, but there is some smoke that the Jays are an issue. Could be a coincidence, but the eye test shows some concerns, which is partly why we're having this discussion. There is a tension about this team. I don't know if it's related to fit or something else.

[Goldstar88]

Also how many players have ended up being "bad fits" next to the Jays? Kyrie, Gordon, now Kemba? Everyone who plays next to the Jays becomes a wilting flower? At this point we will run out of players to pair with them if everyone is a bad fit.

You wrote a very solid post, but this part is awesome. I love the Jays, but at some point, we need to stop using the excuse that 'x' is a bad fit next to them. I don't know if this is a coaching problem or a Jays problem, but three star level players should be able to play together.

I’d like to see Jaylen and Jayson play with a pass first PG. Look what CP3 has been doing for Phoenix. I feel like Kyle Lowry would fit in nicely with this C’s team.

[ozgod]

Also how many players have ended up being "bad fits" next to the Jays? Kyrie, Gordon, now Kemba? Everyone who plays next to the Jays becomes a wilting flower? At this point we will run out of players to pair with them if everyone is a bad fit.

You wrote a very solid post, but this part is awesome. I love the Jays, but at some point, we need to stop using the excuse that 'x' is a bad fit next to them. I don't know if this is a coaching problem or a Jays problem, but three star level players should be able to play together.

Has anyone ever said that Gordon Hayward was a bad fit for the C's? Other than being injury prone, he was generally considered an ideal fit. We probably could have kept him if we hadn't added Kemba.

Kyrie's issues were not about fit on the court. They were about him as an unstable personality and leader. This neither began nor ended with Boston.

This is just about Kemba.

Gordon himself felt he was a bad fit, which is one of the reasons why he left. Not the only reason, but reports were he didn't want to keep taking a backseat role to them. It's just because he was a professional, and probably because of his relationship with Brad, that he sacrificed to make himself into a facilitator.

I guess you mean in terms of the skillset, yes Gordon's skillset was a good fit, because he didn't need the ball as often, he was willing to give up usage and points, but was still able to score when needed. Now you just need that type of player but with the corresponding contentment with his situation. That said, those types of players don't come cheap. We had people complaining for 3 years (well 2 really) about why we were paying Gordon $35m to be a 4th string. Well now we see why.

[blink]

I don't really love it, but I think Kemba probably needs to stay a starter for the rest of the season.  However much I like PP, I don't think he is the solution as a starter right now.

If you want to build his trade value back up, he needs to play and show that he is progressing health wise and hope he gets back to being a high level starter.  I like that he was the anti-Kyrie when he came here.  He seems like a good guy.  But I don't feel he makes the team substantially better than any other middle of the road point guard.

I don't think keeping him long term at this cap hit for the production we get out of him makes sense for the next two years.  It would be sad to trade him, but it is probably what is best for the team / cap to get the right mix of players.  We will probably have to give up a pick or take on a bad contract to get someone decent back though.

[ozgod]

Kemba's been the fans' pinata for the Cs' inconsistency this season but if you look at the numbers he's definitely been on an upward trend. His scoring numbers (which is what most people look at) look the same pre- and post-ASG:



But when you look at his efficiency, it's trended upwards since December, despite his usage actually dropping. And his assists have gone up.



This is the type of Kemba we want to have, someone who doesn't let his ego get in the way of allowing the Jays to continue to grow, but is willing to take a back seat but still is able to take charge when one or both Jays isn't playing well. He's the guy with the most experience, has been a two time All Star and yet he's taken the Ray Allen role. (Same went for Gordon when he was here, yet people criticized him for "only" averaging 18 points as the 4th option on the team. But the max contracts!!  ) He won't always score as much as this because he won't usually get this much usage when Jaylen is back. But that's ok.

People criticize Brad for not playing Kemba on SEGABABAs but I think Brad could care less if we finished 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th...we as fans focus on that so much more than they do I think. Because I think to them it's all about playing well when you get to the playoffs and whether you go out in the 1st round, 2nd round or the conference finals it's really the same thing - you either make the Finals (and win) or you don't. So they're more interested in making sure everyone is playing well, and that means making sure everyone is healthy.

Let's hope Kemba, and Rob, and Romeo, and Jaylen, and all the key pieces of our team, remain healthy and he continues this trajectory.  Another reason why I didn't have a problem with Brad subbing out all the starters when we were blowing out LA. He'd have been crucified if someone got injured and missed the playoffs because he kept them in there too long.

[Goldstar88]

Even though his 3 point shooting has been bad over the last 10 games at 32%, his FG percentage in that time span is nearly 46%. He’s been getting to the rim and shooting/making a lot of midrange shots which is good to see.

I feel like Kemba is doing a better job helping the team in other areas when his shot isn’t falling. He’s been averaging 6asts and nearly 5rebs over the last 10 games and his defensive effort seems to be better overall.. Those 3 things are what I judge Kemba by at this point.

[ozgod]

Even though his 3 point shooting has been bad over the last 10 games at 32%, his FG percentage in that time span is nearly 46%. He’s been getting to the rim and shooting/making a lot of midrange shots which is good to see.

I feel like Kemba is doing a better job helping the team in other areas when his shot isn’t falling. He’s been averaging 6asts and nearly 5rebs over the last 10 games and his defensive effort seems to be better overall.. Those 3 things are what I judge Kemba by at this point.

Those are the things I noticed as well...defensive effort and trying to distribute the ball more. Early in the season it didn't seem like he was really trying on the defensive end but he seems to have dialed it up recently.

Also I never felt he was a great 3 point shooter anyway...he's a decent one but not great. His bread and butter has been that midrange shot around the top of the key where he can stop and pop or come off high screens...I know Jay King from the Athletic wrote that the Cs were being pressured by their stats nerds to take more 3s because they were near the bottom of the league in 3s taken earlier in the season and I feel like that's just not Kemba's game. He needs to mix it up more and if it means taking long 2s to get himself in rhythm then so be it.