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A few numbers
« on: April 06, 2021, 10:07:22 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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13: the number of games this season in which the opponent has attempted at least 30 free throws

45: the highest number of free throw attempts by an opponent, by Philly on 1/20/21

8: the number of games in which the Celts have had less than half as many free throws attempts as the opponent, including tonight's game against Philly

14: the number of games in which the Celts have had more free throw attempts than the opponent . . .

. . . which means

37: the number of games so far this season in which the opponent has attempted as many or more free throws as the Celtics.



I'm just tired.  So tired of this glaring weakness.

If I've counted the game logs wrong let me know, I tallied these pretty quickly over at bref.
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Re: A few numbers
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2021, 10:37:04 PM »

Offline ozgod

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Gary Washburn was just asking Brad at the presser why the Celtics didn’t do the same as Philly in terms of drawing fouls. Brad was defending his two All Stars saying that Philly play a much more physical brand of basketball than someone like Tatum and brown who are much more perimeter players and are less physical when they drive the ball, they are more finesse players, and just have a different style of basketball and are much less physical.

Gary kept pushing that Cs were getting killed at the free throw line and need to get better at drawing fouls, Brad was pushing back saying tatum and brown just have a different style of basketball to Simmons and Harris and they will prob never match Philly for drawing fouls. Said obv Embiid is in a different league when it comes to drawing fouls.

I’m expecting a highly critical article from Washburn on the drawing fouls situation overnight  :angel:
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Re: A few numbers
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2021, 10:51:09 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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Quote from: ozgod on April 06, 2021, 10:37:04 PM
Gary Washburn was just asking Brad at the presser why the Celtics didn’t do the same as Philly in terms of drawing fouls. Brad was defending his two All Stars saying that Philly play a much more physical brand of basketball than someone like Tatum and brown who are much more perimeter players and are less physical when they drive the ball, they are more finesse players, and just have a different style of basketball and are much less physical.

Gary kept pushing that Cs were getting killed at the free throw line and need to get better at drawing fouls, Brad was pushing back saying tatum and brown just have a different style of basketball to Simmons and Harris and they will prob never match Philly for drawing fouls. Said obv Embiid is in a different league when it comes to drawing fouls.

I’m expecting a highly critical article from Washburn on the drawing fouls situation overnight  :angel:

weak team....weak blanking team. Tatum is looking more and more like a solid #2 on a championship team..nothing wrong with that.
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Re: A few numbers
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2021, 11:07:50 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Problem with the "it's not the way our guys play" argument is that it's very hard to be a really good team that can close out tough opponents if you're not excellent at generating free throws.
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Re: A few numbers
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2021, 11:24:04 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Quote from: Ogaju on April 06, 2021, 10:51:09 PM
Quote from: ozgod on April 06, 2021, 10:37:04 PM
Gary Washburn was just asking Brad at the presser why the Celtics didn’t do the same as Philly in terms of drawing fouls. Brad was defending his two All Stars saying that Philly play a much more physical brand of basketball than someone like Tatum and brown who are much more perimeter players and are less physical when they drive the ball, they are more finesse players, and just have a different style of basketball and are much less physical.

Gary kept pushing that Cs were getting killed at the free throw line and need to get better at drawing fouls, Brad was pushing back saying tatum and brown just have a different style of basketball to Simmons and Harris and they will prob never match Philly for drawing fouls. Said obv Embiid is in a different league when it comes to drawing fouls.

I’m expecting a highly critical article from Washburn on the drawing fouls situation overnight  :angel:

weak team....weak blanking team. Tatum is looking more and more like a solid #2 on a championship team..nothing wrong with that.
Not weak.  A young team that lacks leadership.  It does need a dominant #1 which Tatum isn't yet.  You don't win championships without an alpha dog.   
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Re: A few numbers
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2021, 11:42:46 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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Quote from: PhoSita on April 06, 2021, 11:07:50 PM
Problem with the "it's not the way our guys play" argument is that it's very hard to be a really good team that can close out tough opponents if you're not excellent at generating free throws.

Not just free throws, you need And Ones!!
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Re: A few numbers
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2021, 11:52:29 PM »

Offline Muzzy66

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Yeah, I've found this a reason for frustration as well. 

I think as teams become more aware of R-Will's ability to score in the paint he might get to the line more, and TT also gets there at a decent rate.  Nobody else on the team really does.

It's actually probably my biggest disappointment in Jaylen Brown.  When he came to the Celtics the one thing he did amazingly well was attack the basket and draw fouls, and that seemed to be the reason why he and Tatum co-existed so well.  Now Brown has pretty much just done the "copy Tatum's game" thing and his FT rate has dropped off a cliff. 

It's part of the reason why for a long time I was really quite open to getting Dwight Howard in Boston.  He's limited sure, but he has always put a lot of pressure on opposing teams interior defenders.
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Re: A few numbers
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2021, 12:11:08 AM »

Online rocknrollforyoursoul

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I posted this in the game-story thread over on CB:

"I often shake my head when it comes to Boston's FT situation.

"At every level of basketball I’ve ever played or watched, every team has at least one guy (usually more) who just pounds the paint, attacking the rim time and time and time again. Someone who wants to do that, and who’s good at it. And most of the time they get rewarded for it with FTs.

"Boston hasn’t had a guy like that since IT—and he was dwarfed by the guys he drove against, but that never stopped him. Taking the ball to the hoop puts the D on its heels and usually (not always) has the favor of the refs. Maybe someone can point me to the numbers, but it seems like Boston’s doesn’t put much emphasis on driving."

So I'm not sure I buy the whole "Tatum and Brown are finesse players" thing. Maybe they are, but I don't think the Cs are ever gonna win a title getting so few free throws. Free throws are FREE. They're easy points. Plus you put the opponent in foul trouble. I don't understand why Boston doesn't employ this as a major part of its overall offensive strategy.
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Re: A few numbers
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2021, 12:56:53 AM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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For me it all comes down to Ainge's refusal to acquire and maintain legitimately sized humans, which is probably the single most 101 fundamental thing required to win in the NBA. And we just refuse to do it. We've got Tatum guarding fours, Brown guarding fives.

Here's the formula - somebody please text Ainge:

1. Bone crushing interior presence that can control the paint and intimidate all comers to the rim. We 're about 50% of the way there with Robert Williams, but he needs help.

A) Williams needs a serious, massively sized goon like Dwight Howard or Hassan Whiteside behind him.
B) We'd be wise to package, if required, Smart, Thompson and some picks for a really legitimate PF. We currently have no Power Forwards on the team - not one. We haven't had a PF in a long time - it's strange.  Tatum and brown were outmatched physically by both Harris and Simmons tonight. There is an easy answer to that - it's because Tatum and Brown are 2/3's, not fours. 

2. Athletic wing play. Check we're good at this

3. In today's NBA a point guard who can't get routinely hosed on the defensive side of the ball. In this regard, the NBA has simply passed Kemba by. Unless you're built like Kyle Lowry or Chris Paul, it's really hard to be consistently effective in today's NBA - the league is just too big.

But the #1 problem is we literally have not a single player on the team who can consistently apply pressure on the rim. Doing this opens things up for the wings. This could be easily solved in the off season but I doubt Ainge does it.  We need earth movers in the middle.

The strangest thing about this to me is that the blueprint for building championship teams is staring Ainge in the face - he was part of a great one.

1. Russell, Heinsohn, Havlicek - meaningful size
   
2. Cowens & Silas - not huge in height but super tough and nasty inside

3. Parish, Bird and McHale - no comment needed

4. Perkins, KG and Pierce (Brown, Posey, Powe) - about as big and tough as it gets

We have never, ever won a ring without interior size and toughness - ever.

Get that and it will free up Tatum and Brown to do their thing at even higher levels than we probably can imagine. It will unlock them - they are currently in straight jackets due to the lack of size in the middle. Every shot has to be manufactured and most are very difficult shots.   
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Re: A few numbers
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2021, 01:14:37 AM »

Offline scottwedman

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Danny will have to pull the trigger one day.

Can we get Drummond this offseason?
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Re: A few numbers
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2021, 01:18:45 AM »

Offline ozgod

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Quote from: PhoSita on April 06, 2021, 11:07:50 PM
Problem with the "it's not the way our guys play" argument is that it's very hard to be a really good team that can close out tough opponents if you're not excellent at generating free throws.

It's interesting to note that FTAs for both Kemba and Gordon (when he was here) dipped as Celtics. I looked at their per-36 FTAs and they were down with the Cs compared with when Kemba was in Charlotte and Gordon was with Utah.

Kemba


Hayward


Coincidence? I then looked at their shot profile:

Kemba


Hayward


Hayward's shot profile hasn't changed as much Utah to Bos to Charlotte but Kemba is definitely taking more 3s and less shots at the rim.
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Re: A few numbers
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2021, 01:24:09 AM »

Offline ozgod

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Quote from: Muzzy66 on April 06, 2021, 11:52:29 PM
Yeah, I've found this a reason for frustration as well. 

I think as teams become more aware of R-Will's ability to score in the paint he might get to the line more, and TT also gets there at a decent rate.  Nobody else on the team really does.

It's actually probably my biggest disappointment in Jaylen Brown.  When he came to the Celtics the one thing he did amazingly well was attack the basket and draw fouls, and that seemed to be the reason why he and Tatum co-existed so well.  Now Brown has pretty much just done the "copy Tatum's game" thing and his FT rate has dropped off a cliff. 

It's part of the reason why for a long time I was really quite open to getting Dwight Howard in Boston.  He's limited sure, but he has always put a lot of pressure on opposing teams interior defenders.

The numbers don't really bear that out though. If you look at Jaylen's per-36 foul numbers to equalize his minutes played each year, this year he's actually taking the most foul shots in his career:



I think because in his career he's gone from 3.6 3fga to 5fga to 7fga, it makes him look like he's driving less, but he's only driving less as a % of his overall shots attempted.
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Re: A few numbers
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2021, 10:18:15 AM »

Offline Ogaju

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Quote from: rocknrollforyoursoul on April 07, 2021, 12:11:08 AM
I posted this in the game-story thread over on CB:

"I often shake my head when it comes to Boston's FT situation.

"At every level of basketball I’ve ever played or watched, every team has at least one guy (usually more) who just pounds the paint, attacking the rim time and time and time again. Someone who wants to do that, and who’s good at it. And most of the time they get rewarded for it with FTs.

"Boston hasn’t had a guy like that since IT—and he was dwarfed by the guys he drove against, but that never stopped him. Taking the ball to the hoop puts the D on its heels and usually (not always) has the favor of the refs. Maybe someone can point me to the numbers, but it seems like Boston’s doesn’t put much emphasis on driving."

So I'm not sure I buy the whole "Tatum and Brown are finesse players" thing. Maybe they are, but I don't think the Cs are ever gonna win a title getting so few free throws. Free throws are FREE. They're easy points. Plus you put the opponent in foul trouble. I don't understand why Boston doesn't employ this as a major part of its overall offensive strategy.

People mocked Shaq for his poor free throws, but the amount of fouls he racked up on the opponents made the careers of so many players. He put other team’s players in foul trouble sending them to the bench with less skilled players replacing them. He put other teams in foul trouble getting free throws for the rest of his team even the scrubs. This wore on opponents, so even if Shaq only got 6/10 free throws, he was making up for it with the impact of his drawing fouls on other aspects of the game. In this age of advanced stats teams probably will let Shaoq get his rather than suffer the other repercussions of fouling him. He probably averages 40 pts a game.
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Re: A few numbers
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2021, 10:23:08 AM »

Offline Ogaju

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Quote from: ScoobyDoo on April 07, 2021, 12:56:53 AM
For me it all comes down to Ainge's refusal to acquire and maintain legitimately sized humans, which is probably the single most 101 fundamental thing required to win in the NBA. And we just refuse to do it. We've got Tatum guarding fours, Brown guarding fives.

Here's the formula - somebody please text Ainge:

1. Bone crushing interior presence that can control the paint and intimidate all comers to the rim. We 're about 50% of the way there with Robert Williams, but he needs help.

A) Williams needs a serious, massively sized goon like Dwight Howard or Hassan Whiteside behind him.
B) We'd be wise to package, if required, Smart, Thompson and some picks for a really legitimate PF. We currently have no Power Forwards on the team - not one. We haven't had a PF in a long time - it's strange.  Tatum and brown were outmatched physically by both Harris and Simmons tonight. There is an easy answer to that - it's because Tatum and Brown are 2/3's, not fours. 

2. Athletic wing play. Check we're good at this

3. In today's NBA a point guard who can't get routinely hosed on the defensive side of the ball. In this regard, the NBA has simply passed Kemba by. Unless you're built like Kyle Lowry or Chris Paul, it's really hard to be consistently effective in today's NBA - the league is just too big.

But the #1 problem is we literally have not a single player on the team who can consistently apply pressure on the rim. Doing this opens things up for the wings. This could be easily solved in the off season but I doubt Ainge does it.  We need earth movers in the middle.

The strangest thing about this to me is that the blueprint for building championship teams is staring Ainge in the face - he was part of a great one.

1. Russell, Heinsohn, Havlicek - meaningful size
   
2. Cowens & Silas - not huge in height but super tough and nasty inside

3. Parish, Bird and McHale - no comment needed

4. Perkins, KG and Pierce (Brown, Posey, Powe) - about as big and tough as it gets

We have never, ever won a ring without interior size and toughness - ever.

Get that and it will free up Tatum and Brown to do their thing at even higher levels than we probably can imagine. It will unlock them - they are currently in straight jackets due to the lack of size in the middle. Every shot has to be manufactured and most are very difficult shots.   

Looks like you are advocating for BIGS!!
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Re: A few numbers
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2021, 10:28:18 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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It is just unfathomable that Bird who played in the Big Three Era does not fathom this, as they are the best frontcourt of all time.  We all know the game has changed.   But I for one, think the game has moved past small ball too and the Golden State era.  I know you need floor spreaders now but get us some bigs to help Rob.   A legit four who can bang would go a long ways to fixing our woes.
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