It's no mystery why The Celtics lose.

[radiohead]

There was a possession in the Dallas game where JT held on to the ball for 22 seconds or so, trying to make a move versus his defender. It got so ridiculous because Fournier was right there on his side and he could have easily passed him the ball to “reset” the offensive possession. Instead, he dribbled back in order to create space and again attacked his defender, throwing a long jumper before the shot clock expired. It was an obnoxious display of selfishness.

Scal said it best during one of the previous games wherein he described the Celtics’ offense as “my turn, your turn”. It’s all one on one with no ball movement.

[td450]

I am really getting tired of Tatum hogging the ball.  He is a great player but refuses to give someone else a shot when his isn't available.

Brown had a a nice game but he also had 11 3's and 17 shots overall so it isn't like he didn't get the ball, but out of curiousity who other than Brown should have been getting shots last night?  Tatum had a better shooting percentage than Walker and Wagner and the same one as Smart.  Are you made Fournier didn't get more shots?  I mean that seriously.  The reason Tatum shoots the ball so much is quite simply he is the best player on the team.  He should lead the team in shots.  Do you think Warriors fans complain when Steph Curry leads the team in shots (even on his off nights) or Bucks fans when Giannis, or the Sixers when Embiid, etc.

The critique here is citing a lack of ball and player movement, not a shot distribution problem.

[Vermont Green]

I think there is plenty of mystery as to why this team has not "clicked".  You can point to Hayward and OK, but it does not seem like he should make that much difference.  Kemba has been injured but is back to almost the same level that he was last season.  Our bigs are a weakness but no more so this season than last.

If losing Hayward is the key piece to this, than Fournier should fix that.  He is only two games in so we are not going to see the difference just yet but he should more or less be able to replace what we got from Hayward who was essentially our 4th option (while hopefully being more durable).

We have now lost Theis but we have Thompson (or will at some point), we have RWill playing better, and we now have Wagner and Kornet.  I don't think our big rotation is any better than last season but not any worse either.

[ETNCeltics]

It's a lack of offensive identity.

Yes, we miss Hayward, but look at last year, we were without him a lot, and got to the ECF without him almost entirely.

Cut through all the BS, you shoot 11-47 from 3, you're going to lose. Yes, Tatum was awful, but the rest of the team's 3 pt shooting was dreadful as well. We simply can't play that badly and expect to beat anyone.

[hpantazo]

It's a lack of offensive identity.

Yes, we miss Hayward, but look at last year, we were without him a lot, and got to the ECF without him almost entirely.

Cut through all the BS, you shoot 11-47 from 3, you're going to lose. Yes, Tatum was awful, but the rest of the team's 3 pt shooting was dreadful as well. We simply can't play that badly and expect to beat anyone.

That's why you need to go to the hoop on offense instead of fully relying on 3 pt shots, which would also open up the 3 pt shots. Problem is most of our guys don't attack the basket with purpose. They don't look to finish strong, they avoid contact and they drive with the goal to kick the ball out while in mid-air, which is stupid. The few guys who do attack the basket like Smart and Thompson are just not very good at it.

[ETNCeltics]

It's a lack of offensive identity.

Yes, we miss Hayward, but look at last year, we were without him a lot, and got to the ECF without him almost entirely.

Cut through all the BS, you shoot 11-47 from 3, you're going to lose. Yes, Tatum was awful, but the rest of the team's 3 pt shooting was dreadful as well. We simply can't play that badly and expect to beat anyone.

That's why you need to go to the hoop on offense instead of fully relying on 3 pt shots, which would also open up the 3 pt shots. Problem is most of our guys don't attack the basket with purpose. They don't look to finish strong, they avoid contact and they drive with the goal to kick the ball out while in mid-air, which is stupid. The few guys who do attack the basket like Smart and Thompson are just not very good at it.

100% agree.

We shot 60% last night - 28 for 47 - from inside the arc. So good that we stayed relatively close even though Luka had another monster game. Yet we still took 47 3s. Reminded me of the ECF game 7 loss to CLE a few years ago when we couldn't buy a 3, but kept taking them. It's so frustrating that they slide into that mindset and remain there, but it's up to Brad to fix it. If he can.

[td450]

I think there is plenty of mystery as to why this team has not "clicked".  You can point to Hayward and OK, but it does not seem like he should make that much difference.  Kemba has been injured but is back to almost the same level that he was last season.  Our bigs are a weakness but no more so this season than last.

If losing Hayward is the key piece to this, than Fournier should fix that.  He is only two games in so we are not going to see the difference just yet but he should more or less be able to replace what we got from Hayward who was essentially our 4th option (while hopefully being more durable).

We have now lost Theis but we have Thompson (or will at some point), we have RWill playing better, and we now have Wagner and Kornet.  I don't think our big rotation is any better than last season but not any worse either.

I don't see how you can claim that Kemba is back to almost the same level that he was last season. We focus on ability to score, but he's worse at everything else: defense, passing, decision making, ball handling. He doesn't bring any intangibles to the table. A small change in his scoring efficiency and his utility as a player plummets.

I like the Fournier deal but he may replace Haywards points only. He's not as good a playmaker and he's not as good a defender. He's physically a shooting guard. Hayward was a big wing.

I do agree we will get better soon. We were a bit lame early last night, but overall we would have won with that effort most nights. Dallas just was making tough shots from 3 point range.

Will the C's move Brown to power forward and start Fournier? That's a critical move. It was amazing how much trouble Jaylen gave 7'3 Porzingis last night. He is our only viable option down there, and starting Fournier gets Smart into a better role. It may not be Jaylen's ideal position, but he's a swiss army knife and its the only way to get production out of an otherwise wasted position.

[Vermont Green]

I think there is plenty of mystery as to why this team has not "clicked".  You can point to Hayward and OK, but it does not seem like he should make that much difference.  Kemba has been injured but is back to almost the same level that he was last season.  Our bigs are a weakness but no more so this season than last.

If losing Hayward is the key piece to this, than Fournier should fix that.  He is only two games in so we are not going to see the difference just yet but he should more or less be able to replace what we got from Hayward who was essentially our 4th option (while hopefully being more durable).

We have now lost Theis but we have Thompson (or will at some point), we have RWill playing better, and we now have Wagner and Kornet.  I don't think our big rotation is any better than last season but not any worse either.

I don't see how you can claim that Kemba is back to almost the same level that he was last season. We focus on ability to score, but he's worse at everything else: defense, passing, decision making, ball handling. He doesn't bring any intangibles to the table. A small change in his scoring efficiency and his utility as a player plummets.

I like the Fournier deal but he may replace Haywards points only. He's not as good a playmaker and he's not as good a defender. He's physically a shooting guard. Hayward was a big wing.

I do agree we will get better soon. We were a bit lame early last night, but overall we would have won with that effort most nights. Dallas just was making tough shots from 3 point range.

Will the C's move Brown to power forward and start Fournier? That's a critical move. It was amazing how much trouble Jaylen gave 7'3 Porzingis last night. He is our only viable option down there, and starting Fournier gets Smart into a better role. It may not be Jaylen's ideal position, but he's a swiss army knife and its the only way to get production out of an otherwise wasted position.

Yeah, you can debate how close Kemba is to last season.  He is not fully back as an individual player and he does not seem to be as cohesive with with the other players.  I concede that is a contributing factor.

On Hayward, there are things he did better, but there are also things I think Fourier will do better.  We are going to have to wait and see but I feel Fournier is more than capable of being a 4th option complementary player.

Maybe it is that all these incremental things, Kemba, Hayward, our Bigs, all have contributed and resulted in just an overall loss of Mojo for the team.  If so, when we get Thompson back, Kemba stablizes and gels better, and Fournier is integrated, we should be back to the level of last season.  I guess that is a lot of things that have to happen but I am still optimistic (albeit a little less optimistic as time goes on).

[Celtics4ever]

It's a lack of offensive identity.

This is a gross over simplification.    I agree with your other comments.


We rely on too many guys who play minutes that don't produce.   How is that offensive identity?

But let's say you have player X do most of this or that, what happens if he has an off night.   Usually with others teams have guys who can step up.   We don't have that capacity to any large extent and often the drop off from our starters to their replacements is borderline pathetic.

Check out the advanced stats on VORP ( Value over replacement player)

 League average is defined as 0.0, meaning 0 points above average or below average. Because above-average players play more minutes, there are far more below-average players than above-average players in the league at any time. A value of +5.0 means the team is 5 points per 100 possessions better with the player on the floor than with average production from another player. (In the 2018-19 season, teams averaged around 100 possessions per 48 minute game.)

To give a sense of the scale:

    +10.0 is an all-time season (think peak Jordan or LeBron)
    +8.0 is an MVP season (think peak Dirk or peak Shaq)
    +6.0 is an all-NBA season
    +4.0 is in all-star consideration
    +2.0 is a good starter
    +0.0 is a decent starter or solid 6th man
    -2.0 is a bench player (this is also defined as "replacement level")
    Below -2.0 are many end-of-bench players


https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2021.html

We have  9 who do not even register positive and many are negative.  Grant Williams plays often but is 18th on the team., Nesmith is 19th some of this is who they replace but some of it they are not that good as well.

[GreenCoffeeBean]

We think we’re good at shooting the 3 and we’re not

We don’t play defense

Tatum spends more time laying on the floor waiting for a call that isn’t coming instead of getting back on defense.

Tatum just isn’t a leader at this point. He deserves more time but right now I don’t consider him a true Celtic. It’s kind of similar to Pops issues with Kawhi. Jaylen is more like what you want the face of the Celtics to be.

[tstorey_97]

I think here at the forum, posters have done a good job of pointing out the Celtics weaknesses this season. It has been pretty much unwatchable in most games.

Wanted to look at the rest of the East this season and figure out why the Celtics aren't the only team that, after going to the conference "finals" last year to being under .500 this year.

Final standings 2020 (this year's 2021 record)
Bucks 56-17 (30-17)
Raptors 53-19 (18-30)
Celtics 48-24 (23-25)
Pacers 45-28 (21-25)
Heat 44-29 (24-24)
Philly 43-30 (32-15)
Nets 35-37 (33-15)
I'm not going to do the entire conference.

What is different:
The Nets are a super team now
Knicks, Hawks and Hornets are well, way better than ever as in .500

I guess something had to give in the eastern conference and wins are being distributed more evenly.

I suppose what we learn about the Celtics as of today as they are a .500 team as opposed to a Finals team not that many months ago.

I think it's constructive to avoid talking about players who aren't on the team. Regrets and grudges are a load on your immune system.

The team that Ainge and Auerbach want..

Defensive anchored front court. Good center play and the Power forward must have offensive capability. Garnett-McHale etc

Ainge bet the farm on AD and lost badly...like train wreck badly, but the NBA doesn't offer lots of AD's and there he was.

Small ball doesn't work as the hoop is, in fact, 10' off the floor.

Over reliance on statistics doesn't work. "If so and so plays with so and so  and they are up against him and him on the second night of a back to back...." Gaak.

We're all fans and have our own solutions for this team.

I will say that getting "handled" by Utah really, for me, exposed this version of the Celtics. There just weren't many answers.

On the upside, the J's are tops, Robert is a monster, Pritchard has "future" written all over him and Ainge should be able to get a power forward or whatever they call them nowadays in here before I die of old age.

Pritchard (distributor/playmaker)
Brown
Tatum
Forward who plays defense and can hit outside shots (Garnett)
Robert

Could the above win a title? Not sure but, the team we're putting out there right now isn't going to either.

[GreenCoffeeBean]

I’m so tired of this “Ainge bet the farm on AD and lost” talk. This is pure speculation and we have no idea what was going on. Everything in the public made it sound like AD was never coming here. The team is in a bad position right now because of bad contracts and below average drafting. Hold the dude accountable.

[PhoSita]

I’m so tired of this “Ainge bet the farm on AD and lost” talk. This is pure speculation and we have no idea what was going on. Everything in the public made it sound like AD was never coming here. The team is in a bad position right now because of bad contracts and below average drafting. Hold the dude accountable.

I believe it's been reported by people who know what they're talking about that Danny was lining things up to go after AD for years before AD was set to hit free agency.

[Celtics4ever]

I believe it's been reported by people who know what they're talking about that Danny was lining things up to go after AD for years before AD was set to hit free agency.

This may be true but you can't force a player to sign in free agency.   Plan B sadly was not worked well.

[Moranis]

I am really getting tired of Tatum hogging the ball.  He is a great player but refuses to give someone else a shot when his isn't available.

Brown had a a nice game but he also had 11 3's and 17 shots overall so it isn't like he didn't get the ball, but out of curiousity who other than Brown should have been getting shots last night?  Tatum had a better shooting percentage than Walker and Wagner and the same one as Smart.  Are you made Fournier didn't get more shots?  I mean that seriously.  The reason Tatum shoots the ball so much is quite simply he is the best player on the team.  He should lead the team in shots.  Do you think Warriors fans complain when Steph Curry leads the team in shots (even on his off nights) or Bucks fans when Giannis, or the Sixers when Embiid, etc.

The critique here is citing a lack of ball and player movement, not a shot distribution problem.

that may be your critique but it was not in the post I was commenting on which focused pretty extensively on Tatum hogging the ball and not letting others shoot.  That is absolutley why I asked who should be getting the shots