Author Topic: Fair Marcus Smart discussion  (Read 17383 times)

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Fair Marcus Smart discussion
« on: March 23, 2021, 12:01:45 AM »

Offline Ed Monix

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I know how infuriating Smart can be with his shot selection and poor passing choices, but I think we are being too hard on him.

Marcus is a ferocious swiss army knife player, who isn't really dominate at one thing on offence. Almost his entire tenure with the Celtics, he HAD to over assert his game because of a lack of a true point guard. Honestly think about it, Smart's history of guard partners are all shoot first players; Avery Bradley, Isaiah Thomas, Terry Rozier, Kyrie Irving, Kemba Walker.

I believe the long term goal for Ainge was to have a team who shared passing duties because they were all adequate or adept passers (Horford, Davis, Hayward, Smart, Irving). But because of poor luck, Smart hasn't had the opportunity to play within the confines of his game and essentially why Stevens hasn't tried to stop him because the Celtics staff know Smart needs to play that way.

For me Smart would excel next to a pass first elite playmaker eg. CP3, Harden, Doncic, LeBron but unfortunately they aren't usually available or if they are don't want to play in Boston.
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Re: Fair Marcus Smart discussion
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2021, 12:10:02 AM »

Offline Goldstar88

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He needs to emulate Draymond Green. Play high level D, get your teammates involved(Smart did have 8 assists yesterday), do the dirty work and be a glue guy. Shots attempted need to be kept between 6-8 per game. If he can do that, I will have no complaints. Problem is that he thinks he’s a shooter and brad doesn’t seem to have the balls to tell him otherwise.
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Re: Fair Marcus Smart discussion
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2021, 12:28:26 AM »

Offline Ed Monix

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He needs to emulate Draymond Green. Play high level D, get your teammates involved(Smart did have 8 assists yesterday), do the dirty work and be a glue guy. Shots attempted need to be kept between 6-8 per game. If he can do that, I will have no complaints. Problem is that he thinks he’s a shooter and brad doesn’t have the balls it seems to tell him otherwise.

I completely understand your point, but Green can play that way because of Curry, Thompson, Durant ect generating offence. When you take out those players and only have Green, Warriors get destroyed.

What I am thinking is that the Celtics allow Smart to play the way he does, because we lack playmakers on the team. I love Brown, but he can't really initiate offence yet, only Tatum partially can and if Smart dropped his shooting off to 6 per game, defences would cave in on the perimeter knowing Smart wouldn't shoot or drive and our points would drop off a cliff.

It's a bad situation I know, but I don't think Stevens or Smart is really responsible, just bad luck. Stevens is one of the brightest coaches in the NBA, against Toronto's Nurse (the coach of the year) he outsmarted him in their matchup. Stevens would be able to comprehend if Smart was over shooting, even Celtics analytics department would give Ainge data to say that Stevens needs to bring Smart in line and I can't seeing Stevens butting heads with Ainge over that. The team is just lacking in talent because our roster has been plunders year after year. Horford being overpaid, Hayward's absence then wanting to leave, Irving changing his mind and walking on the Celtics, Rozier getting overpaid.

If any other team lost Horford, Irving, Hayward and Rozier (3 all-stars and 6th man candidate) within the space of 2 years they would be almost dead last in the standings. I think it is a credit to the organisation that we have maintained competitiveness given the circumstances.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 01:05:45 AM by Ed Monix »
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Re: Fair Marcus Smart discussion
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2021, 12:35:32 AM »

Offline Ogaju

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I know how infuriating Smart can be with his shot selection and poor passing choices, but I think we are being too hard on him.

Marcus is a ferocious swiss army knife player, who isn't really dominate at one thing on offence. Almost his entire tenure with the Celtics, he HAD to over assert his game because of a lack of a true point guard. Honestly think about it, Smart's history of guard partners are all shoot first players; Avery Bradley, Isaiah Thomas, Terry Rozier, Kyrie Irving, Kemba Walker.

I believe the long term goal for Ainge was to have a team who shared passing duties because they were all adequate or adept passers (Horford, Davis, Hayward, Smart, Irving). But because of poor luck, Smart hasn't had the opportunity to play within the confines of his game and essentially why Stevens hasn't tried to stop him because the Celtics staff know Smart needs to play that way.

For me Smart would excel next to a pass first elite playmaker eg. CP3, Harden, Doncic, LeBron but unfortunately they aren't usually available or if they are don't want to play in Boston.

Or Boston does not want them..

Re: Fair Marcus Smart discussion
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2021, 12:47:50 AM »

Offline Ed Monix

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I know how infuriating Smart can be with his shot selection and poor passing choices, but I think we are being too hard on him.

Marcus is a ferocious swiss army knife player, who isn't really dominate at one thing on offence. Almost his entire tenure with the Celtics, he HAD to over assert his game because of a lack of a true point guard. Honestly think about it, Smart's history of guard partners are all shoot first players; Avery Bradley, Isaiah Thomas, Terry Rozier, Kyrie Irving, Kemba Walker.

I believe the long term goal for Ainge was to have a team who shared passing duties because they were all adequate or adept passers (Horford, Davis, Hayward, Smart, Irving). But because of poor luck, Smart hasn't had the opportunity to play within the confines of his game and essentially why Stevens hasn't tried to stop him because the Celtics staff know Smart needs to play that way.

For me Smart would excel next to a pass first elite playmaker eg. CP3, Harden, Doncic, LeBron but unfortunately they aren't usually available or if they are don't want to play in Boston.

Or Boston does not want them..

Perhaps you are right.

Irving really screwed up years of careful planning though, for Wyc to come out and say what he did publicly really means something from an organisation that is very quite and only keeps things in-house.

Irving (although accidentally) destroyed Hayward's tenure and stopped us from pulling the trigger on a big trade because he backtracked on new long term deal during the season and perhaps his decision to leave influenced Horford too because he understood Irving was gone and knew Celtics would have to rebuild.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 01:06:44 AM by Ed Monix »
5' 10" former point guard

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Re: Fair Marcus Smart discussion
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2021, 12:49:36 AM »

Offline gouki88

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It might be being harsh, but the reality is harsh - his shooting and defence has gotten worse in consecutive years. His defence this year has, for the first time ever, been reliably average. Not even good!
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Re: Fair Marcus Smart discussion
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2021, 01:55:01 AM »

Offline ozgod

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With Smart he's always making high risk plays, he's a gambler. Hi risk passes and shots that make Sportscenter if they come off but earn the fans' vitriol when they don't, because they're not the high percentage lower return plays. In his case you just hope the good outweighs the bad over the course of the season. He will win you games but also lose you games, he's just that type of player. But for $14m he's probably outperforming his contract. It's when he tries to fill a role he's not suited to that his deficiencies become apparent.
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Re: Fair Marcus Smart discussion
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2021, 02:01:19 AM »

Offline radiohead

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I’m a fan of Smart but I’m ready to move on from him if the right deal comes.

Re: Fair Marcus Smart discussion
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2021, 03:28:33 AM »

Offline Muzzy66

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I know how infuriating Smart can be with his shot selection and poor passing choices, but I think we are being too hard on him.

Marcus is a ferocious swiss army knife player, who isn't really dominate at one thing on offence. Almost his entire tenure with the Celtics, he HAD to over assert his game because of a lack of a true point guard. Honestly think about it, Smart's history of guard partners are all shoot first players; Avery Bradley, Isaiah Thomas, Terry Rozier, Kyrie Irving, Kemba Walker.

I believe the long term goal for Ainge was to have a team who shared passing duties because they were all adequate or adept passers (Horford, Davis, Hayward, Smart, Irving). But because of poor luck, Smart hasn't had the opportunity to play within the confines of his game and essentially why Stevens hasn't tried to stop him because the Celtics staff know Smart needs to play that way.

For me Smart would excel next to a pass first elite playmaker eg. CP3, Harden, Doncic, LeBron but unfortunately they aren't usually available or if they are don't want to play in Boston.

My thoughts on this.

1. I don't see Smart as a "swiss army knife" player.  He's an elite defender and a pretty decent passer and that's about the only two things he does on an average or above average level.  He doesn't rebound great, he's a horrible shooter, an offensive liability most nights, a prone to making terrible decisions at crucial points in games.  He's a one dimensional (maybe 1.5 dimensional) role player and a strong glue guy, but that's about all.

2. I wouldn't consider Avery Bradley a shoot first player.  He wasn't a playmaker by any means, but he wasn't really a PG either so that's somewhat of a moot point.  He was pretty much THE prototypical a 3-and-D guy, who made multiple all-defensive teams and shot a very respectable 37% from three for his career.  I don't think Avery every really had a shot-first mentality as a player.  Only time he ever really played that way was during the rebuild when there was no talent on the roster and he was pretty much forced to be more aggressive on offense.  Prior to that he was pretty shy on the offensive end.   The other guys though sure, I'll agree that they were shoot first guys. 

I also disagree that Smart would excel next to an elite pass-first play-maker.  Reason I disagree with this is because Marcus Smart is at his absolute worst when any time he starts to convince himself that his offensive role in any way revolves around scoring, because he's absolutely horrible at it.  When Smart plays off-guard (next to a more pure PG) he stands around the three point line all day chucking up (i.e. bricking) horrendously bad looking threes and hoping they go in. 

I feel Smart is at his absolute best when he's playing the PG spot and is focused on being the ball handler and playmaker, because although he isn't a great ball handler, passing/play-making is BY FAR his best and most useful offensive skill set.  When he's out there making plays for other guys on offence and being a pest on defence, that's when his value is at it's absolute highest. 

So I think the best way to use Smart is to have him as your starting (or backup) PG, with 3 or 4 other guys round him who can all shoot / score so he doesn't feel the need to try to so himself.

The Celtics as they are currently assembled really don't fit that scheme though, and haven't done for years because you always had guys like IT4, Kyrie and Kemba who are the clear PG on the court...hence forcing Smart in to the off-guard spot where he is at his worst. 

Funnily enough I actually think one of the best recent applications for Smart was when we had him playing alongside Rozier, with Smart at PG and Rozier playing off the ball.  Both guys were able to pressure the ball on defence and Rozier was able to be the shooter/scorer so Smart could focus more on playmaking and defence.  I actually felt they worked really well together.

With Smart he's always making high risk plays, he's a gambler. Hi risk passes and shots that make Sportscenter if they come off but earn the fans' vitriol when they don't, because they're not the high percentage lower return plays. In his case you just hope the good outweighs the bad over the course of the season. He will win you games but also lose you games, he's just that type of player. But for $14m he's probably outperforming his contract. It's when he tries to fill a role he's not suited to that his deficiencies become apparent.

I couldn't agree more.

The best word I can use to describe Smart's play style is "volatile".  There is no steady medium - it's either extreme highs or extreme lows.  People always talk about how many games he wins with his hustle, and rightly so.  But so many people seem to conveniently go blind whenever he makes crucial unforced turnovers or forces horrible contested bricks at the end of games that directly cost Boston the game.

When you have a deep roster full of stable, consistent, high effort guys (as we did in the big 3 era) then you love to have a wild card like Smart on your team who can make those game winning plays - and you can afford to accept the bad with the good when he does bonehead things.  But on a team as young, inconsistent and (frankly) disinterested as this one seems to be you really want to add as much stability and steady production as you can. 

I'm just not sure Smart is the hero this team needs right now.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 03:38:15 AM by Muzzy66 »

Re: Fair Marcus Smart discussion
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2021, 05:50:15 AM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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TP Muzzy - agree with your analysis. 

Play Marcus within his skillset and he can be a championship difference maker.

Re: Fair Marcus Smart discussion
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2021, 07:20:24 AM »

Offline gouki88

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TP Muzzy - agree with your analysis. 

Play Marcus within his skillset and he can be a championship difference maker.
I wonder if our coaching, or even scarier, Marcus’ personality, would allow for such a thing
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Re: Fair Marcus Smart discussion
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2021, 07:33:49 AM »

Offline PAOBoston

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Reality is harsh sometimes. Smart is a good defender, decent playmaker, awful shooter/scorer with bad shot selection.

I always appreciate irrational confidence players but Smart takes it to an extreme. He’s not a young guy anymore so him not understanding his role at this point in the pecking order is quite disturbing to me. To me, I truly believes he considers himself in the same group as JB/JT and he is far from it.

Overall, this team needs a shakeup. They need to surround JB/JT with compliments to their games. I do not believe Smart does that tbh. This team needs a change and the only realistic way in doing that at this point might have to involve trading Smart and his salary for wing/shooting help.

Re: Fair Marcus Smart discussion
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2021, 08:20:53 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
They need to surround JB/JT with compliments to their games. I do not believe Smart does that tbh. This team needs a change and the only realistic way in doing that at this point might have to involve trading Smart and his salary for wing/shooting help.

Smart is a small part of that problem though.    Grant, Semi, Carsen and the others do not compliment or produce in a way that supports JB and JT.  We are still left with that problem of having a bad bench.   Not saying I am against the trade just that the problems that are hurting us with still exist to some extent.  I think adding Fournier and Gordon helps though.

Re: Fair Marcus Smart discussion
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2021, 08:49:21 AM »

Offline footey

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If Smart is traded (I'm skeptical of these trade rumors) they absolutely will not trade Romeo as well, as he is logically Smart's replacement as a potential defensive stopper guard.

Re: Fair Marcus Smart discussion
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2021, 08:57:35 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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My issues:

One, this team needs to add players who can be counted on, not subtract one.  Especially if one of the players coming in is a FA at the end of the season.

Two, if a real big time player hits the trade market, the fact that so many teams want Smart, he is to important of a trade piece for players that are in the same range in terms of value.

Three, I just don't get the cap issues.