I don’t believe the Collins to Celtics buzz

[Celtics2021]

It’s amazing how some fans have talked themselves out of every good to very good player available this season.  No to Barnes, to Oladipo, to Collins, etc. 

If we are not willing to commit $25-$28 million to a player, why do we have the TPE in the first place? Why did we give up assets for that?

2 2nd Round picks? Not exactly a King's ransom for a team with more kid projects than a daycare.

Couldn't the Cs just SnT for Collins this summer for $28.5M a season if that's what both he and the Cs really want? Price would be considerably lower, I'd think.

Eh.  Two second rounders is what we just got for Kanter plus Desmond Bane.  They are not meaningless.  If Danny just gave them away for nothing for a TPE that he is precluded from using financially, then that was yet another bad move this off-season.

No, we can’t sign in trade for Collins because that would hard cap us.

hard cap us in the offseason?  I would think that would not prevent Danny from making other moves this offseason before that one so that the hard cap doesn't prevent those moves.

Sure, he could make other moves, but he’d likely have to dump over $20 million in salaries.  It would be really difficult if not impossible to add a max/near-max Collins and keep all of Tatum, Brown, and Walker while subject to the hard cap because of a S&T.  Those four alone could cost $120 million, and the hard cap is $143 million, leaving the C’s with $23 million to spend on 9-11 other players.

[Roy H.]

It’s amazing how some fans have talked themselves out of every good to very good player available this season.  No to Barnes, to Oladipo, to Collins, etc. 

If we are not willing to commit $25-$28 million to a player, why do we have the TPE in the first place? Why did we give up assets for that?

2 2nd Round picks? Not exactly a King's ransom for a team with more kid projects than a daycare.

Couldn't the Cs just SnT for Collins this summer for $28.5M a season if that's what both he and the Cs really want? Price would be considerably lower, I'd think.

Eh.  Two second rounders is what we just got for Kanter plus Desmond Bane.  They are not meaningless.  If Danny just gave them away for nothing for a TPE that he is precluded from using financially, then that was yet another bad move this off-season.

No, we can’t sign in trade for Collins because that would hard cap us.

hard cap us in the offseason?  I would think that would not prevent Danny from making other moves this offseason before that one so that the hard cap doesn't prevent those moves.

Hard cap us all of next season.

You're right, Danny could clear a ton of salary next season before completing a sign-and-trade that allows us to operate under a hard cap.  But, it's certainly not a practical game plan.

Using the not necessarily accurate numbers from Hoopshype, we've got $132,077,647 committed in guaranteed salary next year.  If we signed and traded for Collins at $28 million, it brings us almost exactly to $160 million.

However, due to the sign-and-trade, we'd be immediately hard-capped at slightly more than $6 million above the luxury tax (aka, the "apron").  The luxury tax is going to be $136.6 million, so lets call the apron $143 million.

Keep in mind the $160 million projected would not include Theis, Teague or Semi, nor would it include our first rounder.  We'd have four open roster spots, so project them all in at $1 million per season (not enough to sign a vet minimum, but we could sign rookies).  Total salary is up to $164 million.  Is it practical to cut $21 million from our guaranteed salaries next season?  Dumping Smart and Thompson gets us there, but it's certainly not the most practical route.  Same thing with Kemba; if we dump him on a team with cap space, it solves the hard cap problem, although then we'd be missing a whole lot of production.

[Moranis]

It’s amazing how some fans have talked themselves out of every good to very good player available this season.  No to Barnes, to Oladipo, to Collins, etc. 

If we are not willing to commit $25-$28 million to a player, why do we have the TPE in the first place? Why did we give up assets for that?

2 2nd Round picks? Not exactly a King's ransom for a team with more kid projects than a daycare.

Couldn't the Cs just SnT for Collins this summer for $28.5M a season if that's what both he and the Cs really want? Price would be considerably lower, I'd think.

Eh.  Two second rounders is what we just got for Kanter plus Desmond Bane.  They are not meaningless.  If Danny just gave them away for nothing for a TPE that he is precluded from using financially, then that was yet another bad move this off-season.

No, we can’t sign in trade for Collins because that would hard cap us.

hard cap us in the offseason?  I would think that would not prevent Danny from making other moves this offseason before that one so that the hard cap doesn't prevent those moves.

Hard cap us all of next season.

You're right, Danny could clear a ton of salary next season before completing a sign-and-trade that allows us to operate under a hard cap.  But, it's certainly not a practical game plan.

Using the not necessarily accurate numbers from Hoopshype, we've got $132,077,647 committed in guaranteed salary next year.  If we signed and traded for Collins at $28 million, it brings us almost exactly to $160 million.

However, due to the sign-and-trade, we'd be immediately hard-capped at slightly more than $6 million above the luxury tax (aka, the "apron").  The luxury tax is going to be $136.6 million, so lets call the apron $143 million.

Keep in mind the $160 million projected would not include Theis, Teague or Semi, nor would it include our first rounder.  We'd have four open roster spots, so project them all in at $1 million per season (not enough to sign a vet minimum, but we could sign rookies).  Total salary is up to $164 million.  Is it practical to cut $21 million from our guaranteed salaries next season?  Dumping Smart and Thompson gets us there, but it's certainly not the most practical route.  Same thing with Kemba; if we dump him on a team with cap space, it solves the hard cap problem, although then we'd be missing a whole lot of production.

I would assume the sign and trade for Collins would involve Smart, Thompson, and something else.  Maybe Nesmith.  That would solve much of the salary issues, but obviously leave the team with less depth.  The better option is of course to just trade for Collins now.  I'm not sure what the trade would look like, but there are a lot of different options to do that. 

I do still think something like Smart, Nesmith, 21 1st for Collins, Snell makes a fair amount of sense for both teams.  Boston gets the young PF to hopefully build with the core and a respectable enough bench wing for the rest of the year while Atlanta gets the tough defensive oriented combo guard to pair with their young guards, a young SF, and a future pick.   Trade works without Snell and Smart, but would certainly cost at least 1 more 1st (and probably at least a swap if not a 2nd 1st) in that scenario and I do think Boston is better off keeping more of that flexibility for future moves so I'd do the Smart, Snell component

[slamtheking]

It’s amazing how some fans have talked themselves out of every good to very good player available this season.  No to Barnes, to Oladipo, to Collins, etc. 

If we are not willing to commit $25-$28 million to a player, why do we have the TPE in the first place? Why did we give up assets for that?

2 2nd Round picks? Not exactly a King's ransom for a team with more kid projects than a daycare.

Couldn't the Cs just SnT for Collins this summer for $28.5M a season if that's what both he and the Cs really want? Price would be considerably lower, I'd think.

Eh.  Two second rounders is what we just got for Kanter plus Desmond Bane.  They are not meaningless.  If Danny just gave them away for nothing for a TPE that he is precluded from using financially, then that was yet another bad move this off-season.

No, we can’t sign in trade for Collins because that would hard cap us.

hard cap us in the offseason?  I would think that would not prevent Danny from making other moves this offseason before that one so that the hard cap doesn't prevent those moves.

Hard cap us all of next season.

You're right, Danny could clear a ton of salary next season before completing a sign-and-trade that allows us to operate under a hard cap.  But, it's certainly not a practical game plan.

Using the not necessarily accurate numbers from Hoopshype, we've got $132,077,647 committed in guaranteed salary next year.  If we signed and traded for Collins at $28 million, it brings us almost exactly to $160 million.

However, due to the sign-and-trade, we'd be immediately hard-capped at slightly more than $6 million above the luxury tax (aka, the "apron").  The luxury tax is going to be $136.6 million, so lets call the apron $143 million.

Keep in mind the $160 million projected would not include Theis, Teague or Semi, nor would it include our first rounder.  We'd have four open roster spots, so project them all in at $1 million per season (not enough to sign a vet minimum, but we could sign rookies).  Total salary is up to $164 million.  Is it practical to cut $21 million from our guaranteed salaries next season?  Dumping Smart and Thompson gets us there, but it's certainly not the most practical route.  Same thing with Kemba; if we dump him on a team with cap space, it solves the hard cap problem, although then we'd be missing a whole lot of production.

this is all good information which I think plays to the POV that Collins isn't worth acquiring unless Danny plans to move Kemba to make the finances work better.   If I follow correctly, even if Danny moved Kemba and acquired Collins, the hard cap would still apply.  It begs the question, is Collins the better player to combine with the Js or is Kemba, especially with Collins impact to the team's cap structure for next season?   Personally, I don't think so.  I also don't see a realistic way to add Collins to the Js and Kemba.  I'd rather Danny make a move to bring in a 4th starter-quality player in a deal using the TPE that doesn't hard cap the team so that there's the flexibility to make other moves.

[Jvalin]

Danny could clear a ton of salary next season before completing a sign-and-trade that allows us to operate under a hard cap.  But, it's certainly not a practical game plan.

Which is why it would be easier to plan ahead by dumping long-term salary at the trade deadline.

For instance:

• Kemba for Barnes + expiring(s). I guess it would have to be a 3-way.
• Thompson for Bjelica (+ second rounder?)
• Thompson for PJ Tucker (+ second rounder?)

Multiple sources have reported that Danny was shopping Kemba last season. Here's a report from the Athletic.

''League sources said Danny Ainge was trying to move Kemba Walker for a top 10 pick prior to the deadline. He dangled Kemba in front of Chicago and Cleveland, but neither team bit on the offer.''

https://theathletic.com/2204140/2020/11/19/the-nba-draft-is-over-but-the-offseasons-chaos-isnt-nba-power-rankings/

The Athletic ain't exactly Woj, but it's a reputable source. If Danny was ready to dump Kemba last season, I bet he's ready to dump him this season as well should an opportunity arise.

[Roy H.]

It’s amazing how some fans have talked themselves out of every good to very good player available this season.  No to Barnes, to Oladipo, to Collins, etc. 

If we are not willing to commit $25-$28 million to a player, why do we have the TPE in the first place? Why did we give up assets for that?

2 2nd Round picks? Not exactly a King's ransom for a team with more kid projects than a daycare.

Couldn't the Cs just SnT for Collins this summer for $28.5M a season if that's what both he and the Cs really want? Price would be considerably lower, I'd think.

Eh.  Two second rounders is what we just got for Kanter plus Desmond Bane.  They are not meaningless.  If Danny just gave them away for nothing for a TPE that he is precluded from using financially, then that was yet another bad move this off-season.

No, we can’t sign in trade for Collins because that would hard cap us.

hard cap us in the offseason?  I would think that would not prevent Danny from making other moves this offseason before that one so that the hard cap doesn't prevent those moves.

Hard cap us all of next season.

You're right, Danny could clear a ton of salary next season before completing a sign-and-trade that allows us to operate under a hard cap.  But, it's certainly not a practical game plan.

Using the not necessarily accurate numbers from Hoopshype, we've got $132,077,647 committed in guaranteed salary next year.  If we signed and traded for Collins at $28 million, it brings us almost exactly to $160 million.

However, due to the sign-and-trade, we'd be immediately hard-capped at slightly more than $6 million above the luxury tax (aka, the "apron").  The luxury tax is going to be $136.6 million, so lets call the apron $143 million.

Keep in mind the $160 million projected would not include Theis, Teague or Semi, nor would it include our first rounder.  We'd have four open roster spots, so project them all in at $1 million per season (not enough to sign a vet minimum, but we could sign rookies).  Total salary is up to $164 million.  Is it practical to cut $21 million from our guaranteed salaries next season?  Dumping Smart and Thompson gets us there, but it's certainly not the most practical route.  Same thing with Kemba; if we dump him on a team with cap space, it solves the hard cap problem, although then we'd be missing a whole lot of production.

this is all good information which I think plays to the POV that Collins isn't worth acquiring unless Danny plans to move Kemba to make the finances work better.   If I follow correctly, even if Danny moved Kemba and acquired Collins, the hard cap would still apply.  It begs the question, is Collins the better player to combine with the Js or is Kemba, especially with Collins impact to the team's cap structure for next season?   Personally, I don't think so.  I also don't see a realistic way to add Collins to the Js and Kemba.  I'd rather Danny make a move to bring in a 4th starter-quality player in a deal using the TPE that doesn't hard cap the team so that there's the flexibility to make other moves.

Well, if we trade for Collins now, that hard cap doesn’t apply.  I would 100% be on board with making a trade now.  Then, we wouldn’t have to worry about the hard cap.  Depending upon how serious Wyc was about winning, we could still add to the team with the taxpayers MLE and the veteran exceptions.

[dannyboy35]

  I’m trying to convince myself of no trades now. I’m wary of trading Rob for not enough of a difference maker. Then I just don’t see anyone we have teams would really want to make much of a difference. Pretty glum.

[footey]

I don't believe Collins to Celtics rumor because I doubt Ainge thinks he is a good fit with this roster. He doesn't make us more competitive with the Nets, Bucks or Sixers. 

[td450]

It’s amazing how some fans have talked themselves out of every good to very good player available this season.  No to Barnes, to Oladipo, to Collins, etc. 

If we are not willing to commit $25-$28 million to a player, why do we have the TPE in the first place? Why did we give up assets for that?

2 2nd Round picks? Not exactly a King's ransom for a team with more kid projects than a daycare.

Couldn't the Cs just SnT for Collins this summer for $28.5M a season if that's what both he and the Cs really want? Price would be considerably lower, I'd think.

Eh.  Two second rounders is what we just got for Kanter plus Desmond Bane.  They are not meaningless.  If Danny just gave them away for nothing for a TPE that he is precluded from using financially, then that was yet another bad move this off-season.

No, we can’t sign in trade for Collins because that would hard cap us.

hard cap us in the offseason?  I would think that would not prevent Danny from making other moves this offseason before that one so that the hard cap doesn't prevent those moves.

Hard cap us all of next season.

You're right, Danny could clear a ton of salary next season before completing a sign-and-trade that allows us to operate under a hard cap.  But, it's certainly not a practical game plan.

Using the not necessarily accurate numbers from Hoopshype, we've got $132,077,647 committed in guaranteed salary next year.  If we signed and traded for Collins at $28 million, it brings us almost exactly to $160 million.

However, due to the sign-and-trade, we'd be immediately hard-capped at slightly more than $6 million above the luxury tax (aka, the "apron").  The luxury tax is going to be $136.6 million, so lets call the apron $143 million.

Keep in mind the $160 million projected would not include Theis, Teague or Semi, nor would it include our first rounder.  We'd have four open roster spots, so project them all in at $1 million per season (not enough to sign a vet minimum, but we could sign rookies).  Total salary is up to $164 million.  Is it practical to cut $21 million from our guaranteed salaries next season?  Dumping Smart and Thompson gets us there, but it's certainly not the most practical route.  Same thing with Kemba; if we dump him on a team with cap space, it solves the hard cap problem, although then we'd be missing a whole lot of production.

I would assume the sign and trade for Collins would involve Smart, Thompson, and something else.  Maybe Nesmith.  That would solve much of the salary issues, but obviously leave the team with less depth.  The better option is of course to just trade for Collins now.  I'm not sure what the trade would look like, but there are a lot of different options to do that. 

I do still think something like Smart, Nesmith, 21 1st for Collins, Snell makes a fair amount of sense for both teams.  Boston gets the young PF to hopefully build with the core and a respectable enough bench wing for the rest of the year while Atlanta gets the tough defensive oriented combo guard to pair with their young guards, a young SF, and a future pick.   Trade works without Snell and Smart, but would certainly cost at least 1 more 1st (and probably at least a swap if not a 2nd 1st) in that scenario and I do think Boston is better off keeping more of that flexibility for future moves so I'd do the Smart, Snell component

Weird thing is that Atlanta has Kris Dunn, who is cheaper and as close to Marcus Smart in skillset and physical attributes as anyone in the league. They've got a lot of good stuff going on with their roster but seem to have no idea how to put it together, probably because Young is such a problematic star.

[Goldstar88]

Hearing multiple rumours about Celtics interest in trading for Collins have me puzzled.

Collins is heading into restricted free agency, having already turned down a 90 million dollar contract from the Hawks, estimating he is of more value. Given the Celtics have 3 Max deals in place, I can’t see us, even able to give such a large contract without shedding Kemba. Without even a limited Walker, we lose a floor spacer, some type of playmaking (which we are short of as is) and veteran leadership. Collins solves none of our issues and as he is a restricted free agent we would have to be prepared to match a max offer from a team in need of talent.

For me this is either, fake journalism, Collins agent trying to push Atlanta to raise their offer or Atlanta themselves trying to raise the value of Collins before trade negotiations.

Agree with you 1000%

[Roy H.]

I don't believe Collins to Celtics rumor because I doubt Ainge thinks he is a good fit with this roster. He doesn't make us more competitive with the Nets, Bucks or Sixers.

Why wouldn't he be a good fit?  He's an uber-athletic finisher who also stretches the floor.  Danny said his number one goal is a stretch four.  That's exactly what Collins is, except he's way more well-rounded than that.

[Moranis]

It’s amazing how some fans have talked themselves out of every good to very good player available this season.  No to Barnes, to Oladipo, to Collins, etc. 

If we are not willing to commit $25-$28 million to a player, why do we have the TPE in the first place? Why did we give up assets for that?

2 2nd Round picks? Not exactly a King's ransom for a team with more kid projects than a daycare.

Couldn't the Cs just SnT for Collins this summer for $28.5M a season if that's what both he and the Cs really want? Price would be considerably lower, I'd think.

Eh.  Two second rounders is what we just got for Kanter plus Desmond Bane.  They are not meaningless.  If Danny just gave them away for nothing for a TPE that he is precluded from using financially, then that was yet another bad move this off-season.

No, we can’t sign in trade for Collins because that would hard cap us.

hard cap us in the offseason?  I would think that would not prevent Danny from making other moves this offseason before that one so that the hard cap doesn't prevent those moves.

Hard cap us all of next season.

You're right, Danny could clear a ton of salary next season before completing a sign-and-trade that allows us to operate under a hard cap.  But, it's certainly not a practical game plan.

Using the not necessarily accurate numbers from Hoopshype, we've got $132,077,647 committed in guaranteed salary next year.  If we signed and traded for Collins at $28 million, it brings us almost exactly to $160 million.

However, due to the sign-and-trade, we'd be immediately hard-capped at slightly more than $6 million above the luxury tax (aka, the "apron").  The luxury tax is going to be $136.6 million, so lets call the apron $143 million.

Keep in mind the $160 million projected would not include Theis, Teague or Semi, nor would it include our first rounder.  We'd have four open roster spots, so project them all in at $1 million per season (not enough to sign a vet minimum, but we could sign rookies).  Total salary is up to $164 million.  Is it practical to cut $21 million from our guaranteed salaries next season?  Dumping Smart and Thompson gets us there, but it's certainly not the most practical route.  Same thing with Kemba; if we dump him on a team with cap space, it solves the hard cap problem, although then we'd be missing a whole lot of production.

I would assume the sign and trade for Collins would involve Smart, Thompson, and something else.  Maybe Nesmith.  That would solve much of the salary issues, but obviously leave the team with less depth.  The better option is of course to just trade for Collins now.  I'm not sure what the trade would look like, but there are a lot of different options to do that. 

I do still think something like Smart, Nesmith, 21 1st for Collins, Snell makes a fair amount of sense for both teams.  Boston gets the young PF to hopefully build with the core and a respectable enough bench wing for the rest of the year while Atlanta gets the tough defensive oriented combo guard to pair with their young guards, a young SF, and a future pick.   Trade works without Snell and Smart, but would certainly cost at least 1 more 1st (and probably at least a swap if not a 2nd 1st) in that scenario and I do think Boston is better off keeping more of that flexibility for future moves so I'd do the Smart, Snell component

Weird thing is that Atlanta has Kris Dunn, who is cheaper and as close to Marcus Smart in skillset and physical attributes as anyone in the league. They've got a lot of good stuff going on with their roster but seem to have no idea how to put it together, probably because Young is such a problematic star.

Or he is in year 3 and not quite ready for the big time, which makes their signing of players like Rondo and Gallinari really strange.  I think Bogdanovic was fine given his role position and age, but Rondo and Gallinari were dumb signings given the overall construction of their roster.  They had the money so they spent it, they just spent it strangely. 

They have also had a bunch of injuries in the rotation though none to Young, Collins, Capela, or Huerter, but Solomon Hill is the only other player to have played in at least 27 games this year.  Dunn, for example, hasn't played a single game this year.  They apparently expect him back around the end of March.

The Hawks have also moved to the 8th seed at 19-20.  I think they could be a really interesting team if they get fully healthy for the playoffs as they have a ton of depth and are really young.  They could run teams to death.  I don't think they have enough top end talent to beat the best teams in the league, but I think they could win some games and make the best teams work a lot more than they probably want to in an early round playoff matchup.  The Sixers, in particular, would hate to see the Hawks as they match-up pretty well against the Sixers and Capela is one of the few players in the East that can actually guard Embiid pseudo effectively one on one. 

[BruceBanner18]

I don't believe Collins to Celtics rumor because I doubt Ainge thinks he is a good fit with this roster. He doesn't make us more competitive with the Nets, Bucks or Sixers.

Why wouldn't he be a good fit?  He's an uber-athletic finisher who also stretches the floor.  Danny said his number one goal is a stretch four.  That's exactly what Collins is, except he's way more well-rounded than that.

I'd add that he's a guy that doesn't need the ball in his hands or plays run for him to be productive. He's also been very efficient after taking a lesser offensive role in ATL this season.

[Moranis]

I don't believe Collins to Celtics rumor because I doubt Ainge thinks he is a good fit with this roster. He doesn't make us more competitive with the Nets, Bucks or Sixers.

Why wouldn't he be a good fit?  He's an uber-athletic finisher who also stretches the floor.  Danny said his number one goal is a stretch four.  That's exactly what Collins is, except he's way more well-rounded than that.

Yeah I think Collins would be fantastic as the long term 3rd option for Boston.  Can score from anywhere and is an at least passable rebounder and passer.  Not a good defender at all, but offensively I think the fit is awesome.  You get a defender at center, perhaps Williams develops into that role, and I think Boston could be very tough to beat in a year or two when Tatum, Brown, and Collins are all in their actual prime.

[footey]

I don't believe Collins to Celtics rumor because I doubt Ainge thinks he is a good fit with this roster. He doesn't make us more competitive with the Nets, Bucks or Sixers.

Why wouldn't he be a good fit?  He's an uber-athletic finisher who also stretches the floor.  Danny said his number one goal is a stretch four.  That's exactly what Collins is, except he's way more well-rounded than that.

He's basically Theis with shorter arms, who shoots better but defends worse.  Not a good fit next to our future star center (whom you have tried to throw in to your trade package numerous times for Collins), Rob Williams.