The Hayward S&T: Missed Opportunity? (Merged)

[nickagneta]

Gotta wonder how much input Kemba, Smart, Jaylen and Jayson had on Ainge's opinion of Turner. They played and practiced together for an entire summer. Turner wasn't good on that Team USA squad, eventually leading to his benching and insertion of Brown as a big over Turner.

If those four didn't like Turner personally or as a teammate in a professional manner, that could explain Ainge's reluctance to add Turner to this team. It would explain Ainge needing to shop Turner. Ainge's lack of love for Turner could have nothing to do with salary and everything to do with not wanting to anger his core players by bringing in someone they wouldn't want to play with. Though, his high salary for an MLE level talent probably had something to do with it....maybe.

[Roy H.]

  Turner is a below average 3 point shooter.

Is he for a big? 

[gouki88]

  Turner is a below average 3 point shooter.

Is he for a big?

Not sure. However, of the centres that qualify for the ESPN stats list (meaning they're on pace for 82 3s made), Turner is the 2nd worst shooter of those 12. Only ahead of Boogie. When we open that up to centres + PF's who play centre, he falls behind guys like Randle, Markannen, Boucher, Tucker, Bagley and Collins.

So for big-men who shoot the ball regularly, Turner is one of the worst.

[nickagneta]

  Turner is a below average 3 point shooter.

Is he for a big?

Does it matter?

If you're kicking out to a player to hit a three, do you want Steph Curry or Turner? Why? If you're kicking out for a three do you pass it to Smart or Christian Wood? Why?

You kick it to the best shooter, regardless of how big they are. So, yeah, Turner is a below average shooter, it doesn't matter how tall he is or what position he plays.

And...I mean, if you're going to get a big and use him in a stretch big role, don't you want that big hitting at a league average or better from three?

[todd_days_41]

  Turner is a below average 3 point shooter.

Is he for a big?

Does it matter?

If you're kicking out to a player to hit a three, do you want Steph Curry or Turner? Why? If you're kicking out for a three do you pass it to Smart or Christian Wood? Why?

You kick it to the best shooter, regardless of how big they are. So, yeah, Turner is a below average shooter, it doesn't matter how tall he is or what position he plays.

And...I mean, if you're going to get a big and use him in a stretch big role, don't you want that big hitting at a league average or better from three?

Hard to follow this. Can Steph Curry lead the league in blocks by a gargantuan margin?

Skills don't live in a vacuum -- on-floor context matters.

[NKY fan]

  Turner is a below average 3 point shooter.

Is he for a big?

Turner is a career 35.5% 3pt shooter . How’s that below average? It seems like exactly average especially if we remove his rookie shooting campaign at 21.4%

[NKY fan]

  Turner is a below average 3 point shooter.

Is he for a big?

Not sure. However, of the centres that qualify for the ESPN stats list (meaning they're on pace for 82 3s made), Turner is the 2nd worst shooter of those 12. Only ahead of Boogie. When we open that up to centres + PF's who play centre, he falls behind guys like Randle, Markannen, Boucher, Tucker, Bagley and Collins.

So for big-men who shoot the ball regularly, Turner is one of the worst.

So like if someone finishes 9th in voting for mvp but only 10 player received votes that makes such player bad? 🤦🏻‍♂️

[Moranis]

  Turner is a below average 3 point shooter.

Is he for a big?

Turner is a career 35.5% 3pt shooter . How’s that below average? It seems like exactly average especially if we remove his rookie shooting campaign at 21.4%

He took 14 3's as a rookie.  The last 2 seasons when he has been at 4 or better per game, he has been well below his career average.  In other words, when he has increased his attempts his percentage has taken a big drop.  Now maybe on a different team he gets different or better looks or shoots less (and thus takes only the open ones) and gets that percentage back up or maybe he is more like a 34% shooter from 3, which is a good deal under average.

[Roy H.]

  Turner is a below average 3 point shooter.

Is he for a big?

Does it matter?

If you're kicking out to a player to hit a three, do you want Steph Curry or Turner? Why? If you're kicking out for a three do you pass it to Smart or Christian Wood? Why?

You kick it to the best shooter, regardless of how big they are. So, yeah, Turner is a below average shooter, it doesn't matter how tall he is or what position he plays.

And...I mean, if you're going to get a big and use him in a stretch big role, don't you want that big hitting at a league average or better from three?

Of course it matters. It’s the difference between a big man who can draw a defender out of the paint to cover him, versus one who cannot.

Turner credibly stretches the floor. That opens things up for others.

[tenn_smoothie]

I don't care about his ability to shoot 3's.

I know Ainge and Stevens and much of the board does, but they are obsessed with small ball and trying to copy Golden State.
Celts do not have the two best 3-point shooters in the league. We are not that catch-and-shoot team. We need effective size to anchor the defense and rebound to compete for a title and we ain't got it right now.

I get the comments about Turner being overpaid, but it seems he has turned a corner and the comment in the ESPN article about him changing his approach to his game and becoming a more serious player is what got my attention. Of course, Ainge didn't know this.

The idea that Smart, Brown and Tatum spent that USA Basketball time with Turner and told Ainge they did not like what they saw is interesting. No way to know if it is true, but it would speak well for our core players and their investment in the team.

[Moranis]

  Turner is a below average 3 point shooter.

Is he for a big?

Does it matter?

If you're kicking out to a player to hit a three, do you want Steph Curry or Turner? Why? If you're kicking out for a three do you pass it to Smart or Christian Wood? Why?

You kick it to the best shooter, regardless of how big they are. So, yeah, Turner is a below average shooter, it doesn't matter how tall he is or what position he plays.

And...I mean, if you're going to get a big and use him in a stretch big role, don't you want that big hitting at a league average or better from three?

Of course it matters. It’s the difference between a big man who can draw a defender out of the paint to cover him, versus one who cannot.

Turner credibly stretches the floor. That opens things up for others.

He can can credibly stretch the floor and still be a below average 3 point shooter. 

[Roy H.]

  Turner is a below average 3 point shooter.

Is he for a big?

Does it matter?

If you're kicking out to a player to hit a three, do you want Steph Curry or Turner? Why? If you're kicking out for a three do you pass it to Smart or Christian Wood? Why?

You kick it to the best shooter, regardless of how big they are. So, yeah, Turner is a below average shooter, it doesn't matter how tall he is or what position he plays.

And...I mean, if you're going to get a big and use him in a stretch big role, don't you want that big hitting at a league average or better from three?

Of course it matters. It’s the difference between a big man who can draw a defender out of the paint to cover him, versus one who cannot.

Turner credibly stretches the floor. That opens things up for others.

He can can credibly stretch the floor and still be a below average 3 point shooter.

Again, for a big or the average player?  Centers aren’t going to shoot like guards.  Turner is a credible floor stretcher.

The league average has been around 36% for the past several seasons.  Turner is shooting 34%, with a career average of 35.5%.  He’s close to (or at) average overall, and certainly above average for a big.

[Moranis]

  Turner is a below average 3 point shooter.

Is he for a big?

Does it matter?

If you're kicking out to a player to hit a three, do you want Steph Curry or Turner? Why? If you're kicking out for a three do you pass it to Smart or Christian Wood? Why?

You kick it to the best shooter, regardless of how big they are. So, yeah, Turner is a below average shooter, it doesn't matter how tall he is or what position he plays.

And...I mean, if you're going to get a big and use him in a stretch big role, don't you want that big hitting at a league average or better from three?

Of course it matters. It’s the difference between a big man who can draw a defender out of the paint to cover him, versus one who cannot.

Turner credibly stretches the floor. That opens things up for others.

He can can credibly stretch the floor and still be a below average 3 point shooter.

Again, for a big or the average player?  Centers aren’t going to shoot like guards.  Turner is a credible floor stretcher.

The league average has been around 36% for the past several seasons.  Turner is shooting 34%, with a career average of 35.5%.  He’s close to (or at) average overall, and certainly above average for a big.

not among qualifying players.  he is 13th out of 14 qualifying centers.  He would be 19th out qualifying power forwards (and only 26 of them qualified).  So given his volume, he is a bad 3 point shooter, even for a big.  He keeps defenses honest especially given his volume of attempts, but his make rate is just not very good at all. 

[Roy H.]

  Turner is a below average 3 point shooter.

Is he for a big?

Does it matter?

If you're kicking out to a player to hit a three, do you want Steph Curry or Turner? Why? If you're kicking out for a three do you pass it to Smart or Christian Wood? Why?

You kick it to the best shooter, regardless of how big they are. So, yeah, Turner is a below average shooter, it doesn't matter how tall he is or what position he plays.

And...I mean, if you're going to get a big and use him in a stretch big role, don't you want that big hitting at a league average or better from three?

Of course it matters. It’s the difference between a big man who can draw a defender out of the paint to cover him, versus one who cannot.

Turner credibly stretches the floor. That opens things up for others.

He can can credibly stretch the floor and still be a below average 3 point shooter.

Again, for a big or the average player?  Centers aren’t going to shoot like guards.  Turner is a credible floor stretcher.

The league average has been around 36% for the past several seasons.  Turner is shooting 34%, with a career average of 35.5%.  He’s close to (or at) average overall, and certainly above average for a big.

not among qualifying players.  he is 13th out of 14 qualifying centers.  He would be 19th out qualifying power forwards (and only 26 of them qualified).  So given his volume, he is a bad 3 point shooter, even for a big.  He keeps defenses honest especially given his volume of attempts, but his make rate is just not very good at all.

There are what, 180 - 200 bigs in the NBA?  And he’s in the top quadrant for 3PM and 3P%?  That’s not below average.

[Moranis]

  Turner is a below average 3 point shooter.

Is he for a big?

Does it matter?

If you're kicking out to a player to hit a three, do you want Steph Curry or Turner? Why? If you're kicking out for a three do you pass it to Smart or Christian Wood? Why?

You kick it to the best shooter, regardless of how big they are. So, yeah, Turner is a below average shooter, it doesn't matter how tall he is or what position he plays.

And...I mean, if you're going to get a big and use him in a stretch big role, don't you want that big hitting at a league average or better from three?

Of course it matters. It’s the difference between a big man who can draw a defender out of the paint to cover him, versus one who cannot.

Turner credibly stretches the floor. That opens things up for others.

He can can credibly stretch the floor and still be a below average 3 point shooter.

Again, for a big or the average player?  Centers aren’t going to shoot like guards.  Turner is a credible floor stretcher.

The league average has been around 36% for the past several seasons.  Turner is shooting 34%, with a career average of 35.5%.  He’s close to (or at) average overall, and certainly above average for a big.

not among qualifying players.  he is 13th out of 14 qualifying centers.  He would be 19th out qualifying power forwards (and only 26 of them qualified).  So given his volume, he is a bad 3 point shooter, even for a big.  He keeps defenses honest especially given his volume of attempts, but his make rate is just not very good at all.

There are what, 180 - 200 bigs in the NBA?  And he’s in the top quadrant for 3PM and 3P%?  That’s not below average.

Most never take a 3 point shot.  According to NBA.com only 69 centers have even attempted a 3 point shot this season.  Of the centers with at least 10 attempts, there are 40, Turner is 23rd in percentage.  He is 19th of 26 of the centers with at least 25 attempts on the season (so in the 1 to 2 attempts per game or greater).

In other words of the centers that actually shoot 3 point shots fairly consistently, Turner is most certainly below average if not just flat out bad.

This is the same argument this board has had for years regarding Marcus Smart.  If you don't account for volume, you miss the trees in the forest.