Can We Be Done With This Big Starting Lineup?

[RockinRyA]

So many Celtics fans across the blogosphere have clamored for Brad Stevens to play a two big lineup for years. The desire to put up traditional lineups seemed to be the move that would correct all that ailed the team over the last couple years.

But the reality is that Brad's starting lineups with just one big were extremely good 5 man units on both sides of the ball. Rather than trying to react to what other teams were playing, Brad preferred to run his three wing lineups and make other teams adjust to the Celtics.

Whether the lineup had the Hayward/Tatum/Brown wing unit or the Tatum/Brown/Smart wing unit, the team thrived. Most NBA teams just didn't have the two way quality that Boston had in those positions and with quality score first PGs, they were a tough team to beat or put away.

Yes, Hayward is gone and Kemba hurt, so the current team isn't playing nearly as well, but in limited games and minutes, the one big units definitely appear to be better offensively and defensively, using a three wing concept that puts Tatum, Brown and Smart in their natural positions where they can excel.

To me, the two big starting lineup with Thompson and Theis is a massive fail. Theis just isn't comfortable playing the four and playing on the perimeter. He is a undersized center, not a power forward, and he excels at center, as last year showed. He is just a much better player on both sides of the ball when he is doing center type things.

The offense is also pretty lousy with three non-scorers in the starting lineup. Smart can be a playmaker but without another primary ballhandler like Kemba, the current starting unit gets bogged down offensively. Brown and Tatum are developing their playmaking abilities, but just aren't there yet, therefore, it behooves Stevens to get another ballhandler/playmaker into the starting unit and try to go with way more PG/3 wing/center units throughout the game.

I think it's time to admit Stevens concept of one big was the concept this collection of players would best thrive in. Time to stop the experimenting with two bigs with limited offensive abilities and maximize their chances of producing mismatches they can take advantage of with their three wing units.

A.  We've seen a two bigs lineup work perfectly with Baynes and Horford.

B.  Theis is a borderline Euroleaguer and Tristan Thompson is a 6'8 rebounder... I think most fans were thinking of at least 1 legit NBA starting big when they talked about wanting to see 2 bigs played.

TT is a legit starting big while Theis has proven to be a good player. For the 2 big lineup to work you need one of them to be a good facilitator, shooter and mobile enough to guard wings and stretch 4s. Horford was that, both theis and thompson are not. You can substitute baynes with either and it still wont work. The reason why 2 bigs worked for us was because of Al Horford, in the same way AD is for the Lakers.

[Irish Stew]

Theis isn't comfortable at PF and it's not working, offensively or defensively. The C's looked good against Memphis with a smaller starting 5 and then came out with their worst start of the year against another bad team going back to the two bigs.

Maybe start Teague. Grant could start at the 4, which is kind of a big lineup but he's a more natural 4 than Theis. I might even throw Nesmith into the fire and start him with a short leash just to see how he responds.

Whatever it is, I don't think it can be Theis and Thompson together on the regular.

Agree entirely. If Sunday vs Detroit also goes badly for us, I would expect this lineup to go away. Like Frankenstein, this is an experiment gone bad.

[GreenEnvy]

So many Celtics fans across the blogosphere have clamored for Brad Stevens to play a two big lineup for years. The desire to put up traditional lineups seemed to be the move that would correct all that ailed the team over the last couple years.

But the reality is that Brad's starting lineups with just one big were extremely good 5 man units on both sides of the ball. Rather than trying to react to what other teams were playing, Brad preferred to run his three wing lineups and make other teams adjust to the Celtics.

Whether the lineup had the Hayward/Tatum/Brown wing unit or the Tatum/Brown/Smart wing unit, the team thrived. Most NBA teams just didn't have the two way quality that Boston had in those positions and with quality score first PGs, they were a tough team to beat or put away.

Yes, Hayward is gone and Kemba hurt, so the current team isn't playing nearly as well, but in limited games and minutes, the one big units definitely appear to be better offensively and defensively, using a three wing concept that puts Tatum, Brown and Smart in their natural positions where they can excel.

To me, the two big starting lineup with Thompson and Theis is a massive fail. Theis just isn't comfortable playing the four and playing on the perimeter. He is a undersized center, not a power forward, and he excels at center, as last year showed. He is just a much better player on both sides of the ball when he is doing center type things.

The offense is also pretty lousy with three non-scorers in the starting lineup. Smart can be a playmaker but without another primary ballhandler like Kemba, the current starting unit gets bogged down offensively. Brown and Tatum are developing their playmaking abilities, but just aren't there yet, therefore, it behooves Stevens to get another ballhandler/playmaker into the starting unit and try to go with way more PG/3 wing/center units throughout the game.

I think it's time to admit Stevens concept of one big was the concept this collection of players would best thrive in. Time to stop the experimenting with two bigs with limited offensive abilities and maximize their chances of producing mismatches they can take advantage of with their three wing units.

A.  We've seen a two bigs lineup work perfectly with Baynes and Horford.

B.  Theis is a borderline Euroleaguer and Tristan Thompson is a 6'8 rebounder... I think most fans were thinking of at least 1 legit NBA starting big when they talked about wanting to see 2 bigs played.

TT is a legit starting big while Theis has proven to be a good player. For the 2 big lineup to work you need one of them to be a good facilitator, shooter and mobile enough to guard wings and stretch 4s. Horford was that, both theis and thompson are not. You can substitute baynes with either and it still wont work. The reason why 2 bigs worked for us was because of Al Horford, in the same way AD is for the Lakers.

Thompson is legit how? Sharing a frontcourt alongside LeBron and Love? Or pre- and post-LeBron where he put up mediocre stats on awful teams. He’s simply not that good. He’s a role player and nothing more. Can he grab you ten boards a game with starter minutes? Sure. Can he score 20 on a given night? I suppose. But he will assuredly follow that up with 4 points the next game.

I personally think Theis is a better defender and more versatile on offense. Thompson is longer and a better rebounder. Thompson is the Perkins of championship experience. He was along for the ride. He did his role and saw the stars win him a ring. I know Perk talks like he’s the reason they won #17, but he’s not a leader, and neither is Thompson.

[LilRip]

So many Celtics fans across the blogosphere have clamored for Brad Stevens to play a two big lineup for years. The desire to put up traditional lineups seemed to be the move that would correct all that ailed the team over the last couple years.

But the reality is that Brad's starting lineups with just one big were extremely good 5 man units on both sides of the ball. Rather than trying to react to what other teams were playing, Brad preferred to run his three wing lineups and make other teams adjust to the Celtics.

Whether the lineup had the Hayward/Tatum/Brown wing unit or the Tatum/Brown/Smart wing unit, the team thrived. Most NBA teams just didn't have the two way quality that Boston had in those positions and with quality score first PGs, they were a tough team to beat or put away.

Yes, Hayward is gone and Kemba hurt, so the current team isn't playing nearly as well, but in limited games and minutes, the one big units definitely appear to be better offensively and defensively, using a three wing concept that puts Tatum, Brown and Smart in their natural positions where they can excel.

To me, the two big starting lineup with Thompson and Theis is a massive fail. Theis just isn't comfortable playing the four and playing on the perimeter. He is a undersized center, not a power forward, and he excels at center, as last year showed. He is just a much better player on both sides of the ball when he is doing center type things.

The offense is also pretty lousy with three non-scorers in the starting lineup. Smart can be a playmaker but without another primary ballhandler like Kemba, the current starting unit gets bogged down offensively. Brown and Tatum are developing their playmaking abilities, but just aren't there yet, therefore, it behooves Stevens to get another ballhandler/playmaker into the starting unit and try to go with way more PG/3 wing/center units throughout the game.

I think it's time to admit Stevens concept of one big was the concept this collection of players would best thrive in. Time to stop the experimenting with two bigs with limited offensive abilities and maximize their chances of producing mismatches they can take advantage of with their three wing units.

A.  We've seen a two bigs lineup work perfectly with Baynes and Horford.

B.  Theis is a borderline Euroleaguer and Tristan Thompson is a 6'8 rebounder... I think most fans were thinking of at least 1 legit NBA starting big when they talked about wanting to see 2 bigs played.

TT is a legit starting big while Theis has proven to be a good player. For the 2 big lineup to work you need one of them to be a good facilitator, shooter and mobile enough to guard wings and stretch 4s. Horford was that, both theis and thompson are not. You can substitute baynes with either and it still wont work. The reason why 2 bigs worked for us was because of Al Horford, in the same way AD is for the Lakers.

Thompson is legit how? Sharing a backcourt alongside LeBron and Love? Or pre- and post-LeBron where he put up mediocre stats on awful teams. He’s simply not that good. He’s a role player and nothing more. Can he grab you ten boards a game with starter minutes? Sure. Can he score 20 on a given night? I suppose. But he will assuredly follow that up with 4 points the next game.

I personally think Theis is a better defender and more versatile on offense. Thompson is longer and a better rebounder. Thompson is the Perkins of championship experience. He was along for the ride. He did his role and saw the stars win him a ring. I know Perk talks like he’s the reason they won #17, but he’s not a leader, and neither is Thompson.

Thompson is a role player, you’re right. But so is Theis. I don’t get trashing TT for how the Cavs have been when, if the roles were switched, Theis wouldn’t have brought that Cavs team to the playoffs either.

Both are pretty limited offensively. Theis is a better shot blocker and Thompson is a better rebounder. I don’t think you can compare Baynes/Horford because Horford was really versatile to the point that I honestly think a Theis/Horford or TT/Horford could work.

[RodyTur10]

Starting lineup should be

TT
Tatum
Nesmith
Brown
Pritchard

You play Tatum and Brown with two good shooters

I kind of like the idea, but then you have two rookies starting who are both defensively challenged. That puts extra pressure on both ends for Brown and Tatum. The line-up we currently have has probably the intention to help our stars defensively where Smart and Theis need to be a big presence. It's not really working, but I understand the reasoning.

Adding another ball handler is vital, so I'd would just stick with Pritchard/Smart/Brown/Tatum/Thompson and then Teague/Nesmith/R.Williams as the first guys off the bench (1). To finish the rotation probably some minutes here and there for Ojeleye and Theis depending on match-ups or foul trouble. When Walker and Langford return we'll have more options.

I agree with you that Nesmith has to play. We desperately need a shooter even if he's a liability on defense.

(1) I wouldn't be totally opposed to switching Timelord and Thompson, have a rim protector with our starters and then the veteran combo Teague/Thompson to take advantage of inferior bench units

[PAOBoston]

Thinking more and more at this point that Teague needs to start until Kemba comes back. Teague/Smart/Brown/Tatum/TT. Adds an additional ball handler and gives them more normalcy to how they would operate and offense. Also takes the ball out of Smart’s hands.

[Phantom255x]

Oh no, @Ogaju now in shambles

 

[Vermont Green]

Why did we give up on tatum at the 4?

I reckon this change is more a result of the complete lack of depth at SG - SF - PF than a desire to play Tatum at SF next two old fashioned big men.

The team just does not have enough quality depth at the wing / swing positions for CBS to feel comfortable with Tatum at PF. I think CBS should get over it and just play Nesmith even if Nesmith is not completely ready for the minutes. 

Regardless, I reckon it is only a matter of time until we see Tatum back at PF and small ball back in our midst. It would be nice if Ainge could help CBS out and get him the team some wing depth. Make his life a bit easier. Use that TPE or trade one of those bigs.

I think most people are missing the point.  We played last year with a one big unit not because we wanted to play small ball but because our big depth was so bad.  It came down to having Hayward on the court with Tatum playing out of position or having Enes Kanter or Rob Williams play.  The difference in talent (or more specifically, the lack of any big talent) forced us to do that.

Now with Hayward gone, Walker injured, and Thompson signed on, the variables in the equation have changed.  Now the trade off is start Teague or Pritchard and play Tatum out of position (or someone) or put Theis out there as a PF.  Teague is no Gordon Hayward.  When Walker is back, the trade off will be Smart or Theis but for now, it definitely makes more sense to play Theis over Teague.

The Celtics have a problem or weakness.  They don't have an actual starting level PF.  I think Theis can adjust and do "OK" but that is not a great solution.  Starting Teague or Pritchard is not a solution either though.  I say stick with Theis as the lesser of two evils, keep Teague and Pritchard playing off the bench as they have been playing (and doing well) and ride this out until we can make a trade or otherwise pick up someone who can play PF for us.

Don't try to fix a problem with your power forward by adding a back up PG to the starting line up.  That is not a solution.

[Big333223]

I'm interested in seeing Nesmith in the starting lineup. He definitely hasn't earned that spot yet, he's been awful. But if he comes out with the starters, his role becomes very minimal and maybe more manageable for him.

It doesn't mean big minutes and he can be yanked pretty quickly but with the starters (Smart, Brown, Tatum, Thompson) all he has to do on offense is spot up and on defense he'll never have to take either of the best two wings the opponent has.

It might be the best way to get the most out of him, even though he isn't starting caliber, per se, and it might make the rest of the rotation function better. 

[Big333223]

Why did we give up on tatum at the 4?

I reckon this change is more a result of the complete lack of depth at SG - SF - PF than a desire to play Tatum at SF next two old fashioned big men.

The team just does not have enough quality depth at the wing / swing positions for CBS to feel comfortable with Tatum at PF. I think CBS should get over it and just play Nesmith even if Nesmith is not completely ready for the minutes. 

Regardless, I reckon it is only a matter of time until we see Tatum back at PF and small ball back in our midst. It would be nice if Ainge could help CBS out and get him the team some wing depth. Make his life a bit easier. Use that TPE or trade one of those bigs.

I think most people are missing the point.  We played last year with a one big unit not because we wanted to play small ball but because our big depth was so bad.  It came down to having Hayward on the court with Tatum playing out of position or having Enes Kanter or Rob Williams play.  The difference in talent (or more specifically, the lack of any big talent) forced us to do that.

Now with Hayward gone, Walker injured, and Thompson signed on, the variables in the equation have changed.  Now the trade off is start Teague or Pritchard and play Tatum out of position (or someone) or put Theis out there as a PF.  Teague is no Gordon Hayward.  When Walker is back, the trade off will be Smart or Theis but for now, it definitely makes more sense to play Theis over Teague.

The Celtics have a problem or weakness.  They don't have an actual starting level PF.  I think Theis can adjust and do "OK" but that is not a great solution.  Starting Teague or Pritchard is not a solution either though.  I say stick with Theis as the lesser of two evils, keep Teague and Pritchard playing off the bench as they have been playing (and doing well) and ride this out until we can make a trade or otherwise pick up someone who can play PF for us.

Don't try to fix a problem with your power forward by adding a back up PG to the starting line up.  That is not a solution.

In today's NBA, Tatum's natural position is probably the 4. Look around the league. Almost every team starts a PF who can shoot and handle the ball a little. Tatum isn't out there having to defend Karl Malone and Charles Oakley. It's guys like Tobias Harris and Jae Crowder at this position now.

The only team that starts two bigs is the Lakers (Davis and Gasol) but Gasol only plays 18 mpg and Davis is one of the best, most versatile defenders in the NBA.

[colincb]

Brian Robb @BrianTRobb about 25 minutes ago

There are 10 lineups in the NBA that have played more than 55 minutes together this season. The #Celtics starting five has the worst net rating (-19.4) among them.

[td450]

There's yes and there's no and there's making it situational. I vote for situational.

I was surprised when we stuck with this for game two. It seemed like the right move against Milwaukee, but not for every game. The options are to use Grant Williams at that slot, to use Pritchard or Teague at point, or to stick with Theis. When Walker or Langford comes back, they become options too.

None of the options are ideal. Anyone you plug in will struggle some, because they already have. I think Teague is looking like he is closer to last year's Teague than he is to the solid starter he was a few years ago. I would be happy starting Pritchard or Theis situationally, but I think it is a mistake to keep moving the strategy around. The team needs to work at these roles, and stick to a strategy for 20 games so the players learn how to play that way.

Theis needs some time to figure out his new role. So would Teague or Pritchard. They need a consistent shot pattern, and they need to improve.

[NKY fan]

Brian Robb @BrianTRobb about 25 minutes ago

There are 10 lineups in the NBA that have played more than 55 minutes together this season. The #Celtics starting five has the worst net rating (-19.4) among them.

Is this comparable to a tanking team starting line up?

[PAOBoston]

I'm interested in seeing Nesmith in the starting lineup. He definitely hasn't earned that spot yet, he's been awful. But if he comes out with the starters, his role becomes very minimal and maybe more manageable for him.

It doesn't mean big minutes and he can be yanked pretty quickly but with the starters (Smart, Brown, Tatum, Thompson) all he has to do on offense is spot up and on defense he'll never have to take either of the best two wings the opponent has.

It might be the best way to get the most out of him, even though he isn't starting caliber, per se, and it might make the rest of the rotation function better.

The problem is he looks lost defensively and offensively. Not saying he can’t get there but it’s tough for a rookie coming off an injury and not having played competitive basket in like 10 months to come in and play NBA starter minutes with absolutely no summer league and not a full training camp. Nesmith is talented but will need time.

[PAOBoston]

Brian Robb @BrianTRobb about 25 minutes ago

There are 10 lineups in the NBA that have played more than 55 minutes together this season. The #Celtics starting five has the worst net rating (-19.4) among them.

Gross