Author Topic: Why did we draft Nesmith again?  (Read 24648 times)

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Re: Why did we draft Nesmith again?
« Reply #105 on: January 04, 2021, 01:43:58 PM »

Offline Hoopvortex

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As always your thinking is logical; and it takes the big picture of lineups into account. My only issue with it is that it doesn’t match reality very well.

First about Brown. It’s true that he’s had some high-visibility stints guarding up (Lebron for example, in the 2018 playoffs), but it’s actually rare for him to do that. He virtually always takes the quicker wing, where he’s typically got a size advantage.
Last year, this simply wasn't true. Defensively, Jaylen played PF as much as the other wing positions. A quick look at the matchup stats reveal that the players he defended the most, measured in time, are littered with PFs.

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1627759/head-to-head/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=SECONDS&dir=1

Boston's vaunted versatility lets them switch - a lot - and that was the plan from the beginning. In fact, the Nesmith pick wasn't just about his shooting (though it looks as though he's got a great chance to be something special with his long-distance shooting alone). Like Jayson and Jaylen (and very much to the point, Romeo), he's got the length and reach to switch up and be another good off-the-ball help defender.

Your stat page is loaded with fascinating details, but it doesn't show what you think it does. Your claim that "Last year, this simply wasn't true" is anything but simple (and incidentally shows a similar picture to every Jaylen Brown season except his rookie season, not just last year). This page almost as much documents Boston's defense in general as it does anything specific to Jaylen.

I do commend you for looking at defense to try to figure out what position a guy is playing. I hope you agree that Brown guarding Bam Adebayo, for example, is sub-optimal, at least for extended minutes. But in fact he guarded Bam for a total of only ten minutes and three seconds in three games, or an average of about three minutes, 21 seconds per game.

Rather than just scanning a list of players Jaylen was guarding last season, take a look at a couple of approaches to what position Jaylen was playing during the year as a whole. Here is 82games’ take:

Production by Position
Player Floor Time Stats by Position
Position   Min   
PG   0%      
SG   27%   
SF   25%   
PF   2%   
C                        

In other words, Jaylen played 2% of team minutes at 4 by this method. That they estimate that by far he played the bulk of his minutes at the two wing positions (27% at 2 and 25% at 3) won’t surprise anyone who was watching Boston regularly last year.

A similar picture emerges using Basketball Reference’s approach:

Play-by-Play
            Position Estimate            
Season   Pos   MP   PG%   SG%   SF%   PF%
16-17   SF   1341                     74%   26%   
17-18   SG   2152   2%   51%   45%   3%   
18-19   SG   1913   1%   58%   41%      
19-20   SG   1934   0%   50%   46%   4%   
20-21   SG   238   1%   49%   48%   3%   


Note that these percentages are of his total minutes, while the 82games estimate is a % of team total minutes - so they’re actually pretty close.

Bigger picture: however much time Tatum and Brown were spending playing power forward last season (and Tatum’s minutes at 4 undoubtedly increased), it had little impact on Ojeleye’s minutes. As I pointed out above, Ojeleye was mostly playing with Tatum on the floor at the same time.

We default to an idea about lineups that is more rigid than reality; and this disconnect has only increased in the last generation; and it is most pronounced with a team like the Celtics that does a lot of switching.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 08:14:45 PM by Hoopvortex »
'I was proud of Marcus Smart. He did a great job of keeping us together. He might not get credit for this game, but the pace that he played at, and his playcalling, some of the plays that he called were great. We obviously have to rely on him, so I’m definitely looking forward to Marcus leading this team in that role.' - Jaylen Brown, January 2021

Re: Why did we draft Nesmith again?
« Reply #106 on: January 04, 2021, 10:26:59 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Hope we can put this topic to bed

Nesmith is not ready.  Especially on D

he can't even make open 3s ... very concerning for a prospect that was considered the top shooter of the draft


Re: Why did we draft Nesmith again?
« Reply #107 on: January 04, 2021, 10:31:51 PM »

Offline RJ87

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Nesmith is not ready.  Especially on D

he can't even make open 3s ... very concerning for a prospect that was considered the top shooter of the draft

For all of the flak Stevens gets, when has he been hesitant to play a guy and that guy went on to blow up on another team? On the contrary, a lot of guys play over their heads under Stevens. The staff doesn't think he's ready, I don't know why we have to rush the kid on the court to underwhelm to understand that.

He's rushing all of his shots, he gots lost on the defensive end. For some rookies, the NBA game just moves too fast for them early on. I think that's what's happening with Nesmith. That's perfectly fine. Fans need to be patient. Don't rush to label him a bust. Trust the coaching staff and let him come along slowly if needed.
2021 Houston Rockets
PG: Kyrie Irving/Patty Mills/Jalen Brunson
SG: OG Anunoby/Norman Powell/Matisse Thybulle
SF: Gordon Hayward/Demar Derozan
PF: Giannis Antetokounmpo/Robert Covington
C: Kristaps Porzingis/Bobby Portis/James Wiseman

Re: Why did we draft Nesmith again?
« Reply #108 on: January 04, 2021, 10:40:10 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Nesmith is not ready.  Especially on D

he can't even make open 3s ... very concerning for a prospect that was considered the top shooter of the draft

For all of the flak Stevens gets, when has he been hesitant to play a guy and that guy went on to blow up on another team? On the contrary, a lot of guys play over their heads under Stevens. The staff doesn't think he's ready, I don't know why we have to rush the kid on the court to underwhelm to understand that.

He's rushing all of his shots, he gots lost on the defensive end. For some rookies, the NBA game just moves too fast for them early on. I think that's what's happening with Nesmith. That's perfectly fine. Fans need to be patient. Don't rush to label him a bust. Trust the coaching staff and let him come along slowly if needed.

Yeah its going to take time.  He needs G league experience badly

Tbh I wasn't the biggest fan of the pick.  I thought his release was a tad slow and his D was a concern (pre draft).  And both weaknesses look apparent so far

I understand why Danny/Brad wanted to grab a good looking shooting prospect .  Hopefully it will pan out


 
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 10:45:32 PM by Tr1boy »

Re: Why did we draft Nesmith again?
« Reply #109 on: January 04, 2021, 10:45:35 PM »

Offline aingeforthree

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Guys, he’s sitting behind all of the other young draft picks. Smart, Tatum, Brown, Semi, Romeo......You have to be darn good to pass those youngsters. I don’t see how you can develop him, or give him time. Same with Romeo. Even Semi is a darn good pro.

I’d assume he’s on the back of the bench with Waters, Edwards, and Romeo. Some will be leaving in the trade with the huge exception Ainge has in his pocket. What will Ainge get, that’s the question?

Re: Why did we draft Nesmith again?
« Reply #110 on: January 04, 2021, 10:47:38 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Guys, he’s sitting behind all of the other young draft picks. Smart, Tatum, Brown, Semi, Romeo......You have to be darn good to pass those youngsters. I don’t see how you can develop him, or give him time. Same with Romeo. Even Semi is a darn good pro.

I’d assume he’s on the back of the bench with Waters, Edwards, and Romeo. Some will be leaving in the trade with the huge exception Ainge has in his pocket. What will Ainge get, that’s the question?

its not just a positional thing

PP is just a better player/adept quicker to the NBA at this time. At both ends, plus even shooting

Tatum, Brown, Nesmith, Smart, TT   could definitely be a lineup Brad can send out. But Nesmith is not ready

Re: Why did we draft Nesmith again?
« Reply #111 on: January 04, 2021, 10:47:55 PM »

Offline RJ87

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Hope we can put this topic to bed

Nesmith is not ready.  Especially on D

he can't even make open 3s ... very concerning for a prospect that was considered the top shooter of the draft

For all of the flak Stevens gets, when has he been hesitant to play a guy and that guy went on to blow up on another team? On the contrary, a lot of guys play over their heads under Stevens. The staff doesn't think he's ready, I don't know why we have to rush the kid on the court to underwhelm to understand that.

He's rushing all of his shots, he gots lost on the defensive end. For some rookies, the NBA game just moves too fast for them early on. I think that's what's happening with Nesmith. That's perfectly fine. Fans need to be patient. Don't rush to label him a bust. Trust the coaching staff and let him come along slowly if needed.

Yeah its going to take time.  He needs G league experience badly

Tbh I wasn't the biggest fan of the pick.  I thought his release was too slow and his D was a concern (pre draft).  And both weaknesses look apparent so far

I understand why Danny/Brad wanted to grab a good looking shooting prospect .  Hopefully it will pan out

At this point, it's too early to tell either way. It may be awhile before he gets the hang of it and we know whether he is a future piece - there was no real offseason, summer league, training camp, and barely a preseason. He also had the long injury layoff before the draft. Fans are going to have to be patient. Imagine being a high school sophomore and having the year cut abruptly, then coming back after a super short summer and on your first day you have to take your SATs. It may be a struggle, no?
2021 Houston Rockets
PG: Kyrie Irving/Patty Mills/Jalen Brunson
SG: OG Anunoby/Norman Powell/Matisse Thybulle
SF: Gordon Hayward/Demar Derozan
PF: Giannis Antetokounmpo/Robert Covington
C: Kristaps Porzingis/Bobby Portis/James Wiseman

Re: Why did we draft Nesmith again?
« Reply #112 on: January 04, 2021, 10:52:30 PM »

Offline Chief

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Nesmith is not ready.  Especially on D

he can't even make open 3s ... very concerning for a prospect that was considered the top shooter of the draft

I agree, ive seen enough for now.

Im not giving up on him developing but it's going to take time.
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Re: Why did we draft Nesmith again?
« Reply #113 on: January 04, 2021, 11:51:07 PM »

Offline moiso

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Nesmith is not ready.  Especially on D

he can't even make open 3s ... very concerning for a prospect that was considered the top shooter of the draft
He's lost right now but I'm optimistic for his future.  Just don't expect much this year.  He didn't even seem to know that you can't draw a charge in the circle.

Re: Why did we draft Nesmith again?
« Reply #114 on: January 05, 2021, 12:03:38 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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I prepared for rookie Nesmith ...LOl....after all i lived though what felt like 5 years of the  James Young monster bust party. He can't be worse than him.

Re: Why did we draft Nesmith again?
« Reply #115 on: January 05, 2021, 12:12:35 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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I prepared for rookie Nesmith ...LOl....after all i lived though what felt like 5 years of the  James Young monster bust party. He can't be worse than him.

I just pray they are not like twins type players. I beg
« Last Edit: January 05, 2021, 12:34:47 AM by Tr1boy »

Re: Why did we draft Nesmith again?
« Reply #116 on: January 05, 2021, 01:53:42 AM »

Online SparzWizard

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Aaron Nesmith isn't the next Tyler Herro unfortunately.

Lookin' like another James Young  :(


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Re: Why did we draft Nesmith again?
« Reply #117 on: January 05, 2021, 02:03:15 AM »

Offline Uncle_Stingfinger

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Somebody called him a less athletic Danny Green on draft night.  It haunts my thoughts everytime he plays.

Re: Why did we draft Nesmith again?
« Reply #118 on: January 05, 2021, 02:24:22 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Aaron Nesmith isn't the next Tyler Herro unfortunately.

Lookin' like another James Young  :(
Ridiculous overreaction once again.

From calling Kemba Walker a "bad player", to saying Washington had become a more threatening team due to their acquisition of Westbrook, all the way to claiming the Nets were the "team to beat" and "way ahead of us", you've had some real gems when it comes to firing off early over the last couple of weeks.
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Why did we draft Nesmith again?
« Reply #119 on: January 05, 2021, 02:28:35 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Not sure why this place is so obsessed with crapping on young players who play poorly. Jaylen Brown and Avery Bradley started out like utter garbage - they ended up alright!
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)