2021 Historical Draft: How Does My Team Look?

[Moranis]

Capela: 12.7 rpg
Gasols Best Season : 9.3rpg

Capela: 4.4 offensive rebounds
Gasols Best Season : 3

Capela: .648 fg%,
Gasols best season: .581

Capela: 1.4 assists
Gasols best season: 4.6

Capela: 0.8 steals
Gasols best season: 1

Capela: 1.7 blocks
Gasols best season 1.9 blocks

Capela: Defensive Wins Share: 3.0
Gasols Best Season: 5.4

Capela Offensive Win Share 7.8
Gasols best season: 6.1

Capela Win Share: 10.8
Gasols Best Season: 11.5

Capela Win Share per 48: 0.230
Gasols best season: 1.97


Ignoring any specific year and instead only taking the best performance for Marc in any single category, the only advantage he has on Capela is his passing, and defense (Playing in Houston really hurts Clints overal defensive impact).
But I will not be requiring Capela to pass at all. That responsibility will fall to others.

And scoring. And shooting.  And setting screens.  And moving without the ball.

This league has reached absurdity if somebody is arguing that Prime Capela and Prime Gasol are equals.

So the only things Gasol was better than Capela at are offence and defence? Got it

Naw, point is that the 2 are close. And this is based on Gasols career highs, we all know that Gasol was either a defender or a more offensive player. He never had both at the same time.

In both 2012-13 and 2014-15 Marc Gasol was an elite two-way big man. All kinds of things back this up, like the eye test, metrics both advanced and simple, and accolades.

eh, maybe. Its been a while since I watched those years of Marc. I will take your guys words for it. I would label him as an elite defender, but I dont think offensively he was elite though. I dont see 17ppg as being elite.

If PPG is an absolute marker of offensive prowess, guys like Adrian Dantley would be offensive dynamos. Gasol does a lot of things that aren't captured by the box score on offence, eg. setting screens, spacing the floor, ability to pass from the high post, etc that bring positive offensive value.

Sure, so does Vlade, Brad Miller etc.

Every center drafted can set good screens and alot of them can spread the floor. I think Marc is a very good payer, I just dont think he has ever been elite offensively.

That is a fair point, but claiming that Capela is anywhere near the player Gasol is, is where you lose people.  Capela is no where near the player Gasol is. 

[Somebody]

Capela: 12.7 rpg
Gasols Best Season : 9.3rpg

Capela: 4.4 offensive rebounds
Gasols Best Season : 3

Capela: .648 fg%,
Gasols best season: .581

Capela: 1.4 assists
Gasols best season: 4.6

Capela: 0.8 steals
Gasols best season: 1

Capela: 1.7 blocks
Gasols best season 1.9 blocks

Capela: Defensive Wins Share: 3.0
Gasols Best Season: 5.4

Capela Offensive Win Share 7.8
Gasols best season: 6.1

Capela Win Share: 10.8
Gasols Best Season: 11.5

Capela Win Share per 48: 0.230
Gasols best season: 1.97


Ignoring any specific year and instead only taking the best performance for Marc in any single category, the only advantage he has on Capela is his passing, and defense (Playing in Houston really hurts Clints overal defensive impact).
But I will not be requiring Capela to pass at all. That responsibility will fall to others.

And scoring. And shooting.  And setting screens.  And moving without the ball.

This league has reached absurdity if somebody is arguing that Prime Capela and Prime Gasol are equals.

So the only things Gasol was better than Capela at are offence and defence? Got it

Naw, point is that the 2 are close. And this is based on Gasols career highs, we all know that Gasol was either a defender or a more offensive player. He never had both at the same time.

In what world are both close? Prime Gasol dwarfs Capela as a player even if he was a neutral on offence.

We arenot talking about prime gasol.

Marc Gasols year chosen versus Capelas year chosen

Clint: 16.5ppg (10.9fga), 12.7rpg, 1.5apg, .8spg, 1.6bpg, 64.8%fg, 20.8trb%, 7.1Ast%, 1.1stl%, 3.9blk%, win share/48 .230
Marc: 19.5ppg 15.7fga), 6.3rpg, 4.6apg, 0.9spg, 1.3bpg, 45.9%fg, 10.5trb%, 24.8ast%, 1.4stl%, 3.7blk%, win share/48 .145

We are talking about specific years. Of course prime gasol is better than Capela, capela hasnt even hit his prime yet. Of course Gasol has had a better career.

The original number I posted cherry picked the best years of Gasols in each category against the season I chose for Capela, and there isnt a huge difference statistically, perhaps that was a dumb way to post numbers. (probably)

Point i was trying to make was that Gasol had some season where he was a very good defender and a good offensive player, but not the season picked. Also even at his best Gasol wasnt world beater at some things when someone like Capela can have far superior rebounding, fg% and similar impact on steals and blocks playing behind a turn style defender like Harden as opposed to Conley and Allen like Gasol was gifted.

Gasol's rebounding numbers are deceptive - he was great at boxing out to allow his teammates to grab rebounds (the Grizzlies were 8th in defensive rebounding rate that season). Obviously his abysmal rebounding rates dent his value (there's something to be said in being able to inhale rebounds by yourself assuming you're not cannibalising boards by not boxing out or swooping in to steal caroms), but his aforementioned ability mitigates it somewhat.

The box score is also terrible at capturing a player's value - it fails to capture the more granular aspects of the game and what great players do to bring value to their teams, especially on defence (this is particularly important in this comparison because most of what Gasol and Capela do to impact the game is on defence). Gasol might have worse stock rates than Capela, but they don't capture Gasol's savvy post defence that drags down the efficacy of low post studs, his positioning and rotations that provide elite help defence, etc that are the main drivers of defensive value for bigs. PPG/APG splits doesn't do justice to Gasol's superiority on offence: Capela got his points by being the recipient of Harden's GOAT level PnR pocket passes and lobs while Gasol was a primary or secondary creator for the Grizzlies who had to create for himself and his teammates against defences keying on him every night.

Also don't buy your point about teammates - Gasol had to play next to a defensive sieve in Randolph for most of his Grizzlies career and never really had an elite defensive forward after Prince aged, it wasn't like he had defensive stalwarts backing him up at every position while Capela had to carry rubbish (Capela had strong defensive teammates like Ariza, Beverley and Tucker).

I will say that I don't understand 2017 Gasol being picked, but he was still a top 30 player in the league and Capela was never close to that level.

[Somebody]

Capela: 12.7 rpg
Gasols Best Season : 9.3rpg

Capela: 4.4 offensive rebounds
Gasols Best Season : 3

Capela: .648 fg%,
Gasols best season: .581

Capela: 1.4 assists
Gasols best season: 4.6

Capela: 0.8 steals
Gasols best season: 1

Capela: 1.7 blocks
Gasols best season 1.9 blocks

Capela: Defensive Wins Share: 3.0
Gasols Best Season: 5.4

Capela Offensive Win Share 7.8
Gasols best season: 6.1

Capela Win Share: 10.8
Gasols Best Season: 11.5

Capela Win Share per 48: 0.230
Gasols best season: 1.97


Ignoring any specific year and instead only taking the best performance for Marc in any single category, the only advantage he has on Capela is his passing, and defense (Playing in Houston really hurts Clints overal defensive impact).
But I will not be requiring Capela to pass at all. That responsibility will fall to others.

And scoring. And shooting.  And setting screens.  And moving without the ball.

This league has reached absurdity if somebody is arguing that Prime Capela and Prime Gasol are equals.

So the only things Gasol was better than Capela at are offence and defence? Got it

Naw, point is that the 2 are close. And this is based on Gasols career highs, we all know that Gasol was either a defender or a more offensive player. He never had both at the same time.

In both 2012-13 and 2014-15 Marc Gasol was an elite two-way big man. All kinds of things back this up, like the eye test, metrics both advanced and simple, and accolades.

eh, maybe. Its been a while since I watched those years of Marc. I will take your guys words for it. I would label him as an elite defender, but I dont think offensively he was elite though. I dont see 17ppg as being elite.

If PPG is an absolute marker of offensive prowess, guys like Adrian Dantley would be offensive dynamos. Gasol does a lot of things that aren't captured by the box score on offence, eg. setting screens, spacing the floor, ability to pass from the high post, etc that bring positive offensive value.

Sure, so does Vlade, Brad Miller etc.

Every center drafted can set good screens and alot of them can spread the floor. I think Marc is a very good payer, I just dont think he has ever been elite offensively.

I actually rate Vlade as a very good two-way player and Brad Miller as a very good offensive player so I don't see the problem with them being somewhat close to Gasol offensively. And I can certainly buy that, but you're going to lose people when you start comparing Gasol to Capela.

[Who]

PHOENIX  SUNS
Tony Parker/Norm Van Lier/Steve Kerr
Clyde Drexler/Devin Booker/J.J. Redick
Danny Granger/Hedo Turkoglu/Tayshaun Prince
Giannis Antetokounmpo/Anthony Mason/Bob Love
DeAndre Jordan/Carlos Boozer/Troy Murphy

I was surprised you did not select another center. I understand wanting to use Giannis at center and fully agree that is an excellent option but why did you not select a 3rd string center?

Someone that can give you a few minutes at center in a game where DeAndre isn't playing well or is in foul trouble. Or if you just want to say big because it is working well (your defensive size is dominating). A couple quick fouls to DeAndre and you have little alternative.

I thought a 3rd string center who can defend would have added more to your bench than 4 PFs.

Boozer played center throughout his career. At Utah he played the 5 alongside Millsap a ton but was always listed as a 4. In Chicago he played a bunch of center when Noah was out, which was a lot, and with their 2nd unit. He also played center in LA too.

While Boozer was listed as a 4, he played a bunch of center in his career.

Yeah but Boozer was a defensive liability there. So was Troy Murphy. They played there but they weren't very good.

A.Mason looks the best bet for defensive aid but he is still only 6-7 with low level shot-blocking.

It just feels off to me. That the team is over-reliant on DeAndre Jordan and over-exposed to any problems he has (poor performance or foul trouble).

[Darth_Yoda]

Ok. I dug a hole.

That really got away from me fast.

Capela is a superior finisher and rebounder. Let me have at least that 


Also, just to maybe dig deeper, i have gasol as the 7th or 8th best offensive center in this draft

[Darth_Yoda]

Capela: 12.7 rpg
Gasols Best Season : 9.3rpg

Capela: 4.4 offensive rebounds
Gasols Best Season : 3

Capela: .648 fg%,
Gasols best season: .581

Capela: 1.4 assists
Gasols best season: 4.6

Capela: 0.8 steals
Gasols best season: 1

Capela: 1.7 blocks
Gasols best season 1.9 blocks

Capela: Defensive Wins Share: 3.0
Gasols Best Season: 5.4

Capela Offensive Win Share 7.8
Gasols best season: 6.1

Capela Win Share: 10.8
Gasols Best Season: 11.5

Capela Win Share per 48: 0.230
Gasols best season: 1.97


Ignoring any specific year and instead only taking the best performance for Marc in any single category, the only advantage he has on Capela is his passing, and defense (Playing in Houston really hurts Clints overal defensive impact).
But I will not be requiring Capela to pass at all. That responsibility will fall to others.

And scoring. And shooting.  And setting screens.  And moving without the ball.

This league has reached absurdity if somebody is arguing that Prime Capela and Prime Gasol are equals.

So the only things Gasol was better than Capela at are offence and defence? Got it

Naw, point is that the 2 are close. And this is based on Gasols career highs, we all know that Gasol was either a defender or a more offensive player. He never had both at the same time.

In what world are both close? Prime Gasol dwarfs Capela as a player even if he was a neutral on offence.

We arenot talking about prime gasol.

Marc Gasols year chosen versus Capelas year chosen

Clint: 16.5ppg (10.9fga), 12.7rpg, 1.5apg, .8spg, 1.6bpg, 64.8%fg, 20.8trb%, 7.1Ast%, 1.1stl%, 3.9blk%, win share/48 .230
Marc: 19.5ppg 15.7fga), 6.3rpg, 4.6apg, 0.9spg, 1.3bpg, 45.9%fg, 10.5trb%, 24.8ast%, 1.4stl%, 3.7blk%, win share/48 .145

We are talking about specific years. Of course prime gasol is better than Capela, capela hasnt even hit his prime yet. Of course Gasol has had a better career.

The original number I posted cherry picked the best years of Gasols in each category against the season I chose for Capela, and there isnt a huge difference statistically, perhaps that was a dumb way to post numbers. (probably)

Point i was trying to make was that Gasol had some season where he was a very good defender and a good offensive player, but not the season picked. Also even at his best Gasol wasnt world beater at some things when someone like Capela can have far superior rebounding, fg% and similar impact on steals and blocks playing behind a turn style defender like Harden as opposed to Conley and Allen like Gasol was gifted.

Gasol's rebounding numbers are deceptive - he was great at boxing out to allow his teammates to grab rebounds (the Grizzlies were 8th in defensive rebounding rate that season). Obviously his abysmal rebounding rates dent his value (there's something to be said in being able to inhale rebounds by yourself assuming you're not cannibalising boards by not boxing out or swooping in to steal caroms), but his aforementioned ability mitigates it somewhat.

The box score is also terrible at capturing a player's value - it fails to capture the more granular aspects of the game and what great players do to bring value to their teams, especially on defence (this is particularly important in this comparison because most of what Gasol and Capela do to impact the game is on defence). Gasol might have worse stock rates than Capela, but they don't capture Gasol's savvy post defence that drags down the efficacy of low post studs, his positioning and rotations that provide elite help defence, etc that are the main drivers of defensive value for bigs. PPG/APG splits doesn't do justice to Gasol's superiority on offence: Capela got his points by being the recipient of Harden's GOAT level PnR pocket passes and lobs while Gasol was a primary or secondary creator for the Grizzlies who had to create for himself and his teammates against defences keying on him every night.

Also don't buy your point about teammates - Gasol had to play next to a defensive sieve in Randolph for most of his Grizzlies career and never really had an elite defensive forward after Prince aged, it wasn't like he had defensive stalwarts backing him up at every position while Capela had to carry rubbish (Capela had strong defensive teammates like Ariza, Beverley and Tucker).

I will say that I don't understand 2017 Gasol being picked, but he was still a top 30 player in the league and Capela was never close to that level.

Gasol also had conley and allen.

And yes, capela is not a top 30 player in the league, but he fits very well and in some areas he is superior.

[Who]

It is an interesting question - whether Marc Gasol is an elite offensive player or not.

I regard him as an elite team offensive player (passing, floor spacing, screens, movement) but only an above average individual offensive player (individual creation - shot creation, playmaking). I don't know if that makes him an elite offensive player or not but he certainly very good offensively.

In this league, I have M.Gasol as a top tier team offense and middle tier individual offense.

My top tier for individual offense are Moses, Jokic and Artis. With Sabonis, Divac and M.Gasol in the middle tier. My top tier for team offense was Jokic, M.Gasol, Sabonis, Divac. My middle tier had Artis and maybe Moses.

Interestingly the only big man to appear on both the lists as a top tier offensive player was Nikola Jokic which is why he is my #1 ranked offensive center.

[nickagneta]

PHOENIX  SUNS
Tony Parker/Norm Van Lier/Steve Kerr
Clyde Drexler/Devin Booker/J.J. Redick
Danny Granger/Hedo Turkoglu/Tayshaun Prince
Giannis Antetokounmpo/Anthony Mason/Bob Love
DeAndre Jordan/Carlos Boozer/Troy Murphy

I was surprised you did not select another center. I understand wanting to use Giannis at center and fully agree that is an excellent option but why did you not select a 3rd string center?

Someone that can give you a few minutes at center in a game where DeAndre isn't playing well or is in foul trouble. Or if you just want to say big because it is working well (your defensive size is dominating). A couple quick fouls to DeAndre and you have little alternative.

I thought a 3rd string center who can defend would have added more to your bench than 4 PFs.

Boozer played center throughout his career. At Utah he played the 5 alongside Millsap a ton but was always listed as a 4. In Chicago he played a bunch of center when Noah was out, which was a lot, and with their 2nd unit. He also played center in LA too.

While Boozer was listed as a 4, he played a bunch of center in his career.

Yeah but Boozer was a defensive liability there. So was Troy Murphy. They played there but they weren't very good.

A.Mason looks the best bet for defensive aid but he is still only 6-7 with low level shot-blocking.

It just feels off to me. That the team is over-reliant on DeAndre Jordan and over-exposed to any problems he has (poor performance or foul trouble).

Over reliant on Jordan? That makes no sense.

First, Jordan's main job is defense and rebounding versus the opponent's bigs. So he will be most important versus guys like Moses, Jokic, Gilmore and maybe Gasol. But all the other centers in this game aren't all that great offensively that Boozer can't be effective slowing them down. There is a few starting centers and many backups you don't even have to worry about what they bring offensively.

DeAndre is around a 24 minute a game role player. Add 12-15 minutes of elite small ball with Giannis at center and Boozer is getting like 10 minutes a game. Against most centers in this endeavor, especially bench ones, Boozer is fine.

Really, for all the talk here about centers, I think this is easily the worst group of centers in the history of Historical Drafts. After the top 4-5 guys, everyone else is disappointing to me and can easily be slowed or rendered negligible by just decent defense.

Center was the weakest position when you consider quality of players and in the modern environment we are playing in it's the least important position.

[Who]

Gasol's rebounding numbers are deceptive - he was great at boxing out to allow his teammates to grab rebounds (the Grizzlies were 8th in defensive rebounding rate that season).

I used to call them "space eaters". These big 7 foot giants who do a bad job of grabbing the rebound but still improve team defense rebounding by putting their big body in the paint and making it hard for offensive rebounds to get position inside.

Boxing out is a big part of that but even beyond that, their sheer size and mass ... The space they take up on the floor.

Shaq was fantastic for that. He rarely boxed out but he still made huge improvements to team rebounding because it was so hard to get around him! He was huge. Massive massive man who even though he wasn't boxing out, he still denied you position just by the amount of space his big body took up.

Marc Gasol is more diligent at boxing out than Shaq was but he also has value in the area he takes up in terms of denying offensive rebounders lanes to attack the boards. Watch some skinny centers and you'll often spot the opposite of that. They can do things correct fundamentally but they are still easier to slide by than those big body centers for offensive rebounding opportunities.

[Darth_Yoda]

PHOENIX  SUNS
Tony Parker/Norm Van Lier/Steve Kerr
Clyde Drexler/Devin Booker/J.J. Redick
Danny Granger/Hedo Turkoglu/Tayshaun Prince
Giannis Antetokounmpo/Anthony Mason/Bob Love
DeAndre Jordan/Carlos Boozer/Troy Murphy

I was surprised you did not select another center. I understand wanting to use Giannis at center and fully agree that is an excellent option but why did you not select a 3rd string center?

Someone that can give you a few minutes at center in a game where DeAndre isn't playing well or is in foul trouble. Or if you just want to say big because it is working well (your defensive size is dominating). A couple quick fouls to DeAndre and you have little alternative.

I thought a 3rd string center who can defend would have added more to your bench than 4 PFs.

Boozer played center throughout his career. At Utah he played the 5 alongside Millsap a ton but was always listed as a 4. In Chicago he played a bunch of center when Noah was out, which was a lot, and with their 2nd unit. He also played center in LA too.

While Boozer was listed as a 4, he played a bunch of center in his career.

Yeah but Boozer was a defensive liability there. So was Troy Murphy. They played there but they weren't very good.

A.Mason looks the best bet for defensive aid but he is still only 6-7 with low level shot-blocking.

It just feels off to me. That the team is over-reliant on DeAndre Jordan and over-exposed to any problems he has (poor performance or foul trouble).

Over reliant on Jordan? That makes no sense.

First, Jordan's main job is defense and rebounding versus the opponent's bigs. So he will be most important versus guys like Moses, Jokic, Gilmore and maybe Gasol. But all the other centers in this game aren't all that great offensively that Boozer can't be effective slowing them down. There is a few starting centers and many backups you don't even have to worry about what they bring offensively.

DeAndre is around a 24 minute a game role player. Add 12-15 minutes of elite small ball with Giannis at center and Boozer is getting like 10 minutes a game. Against most centers in this endeavor, especially bench ones, Boozer is fine.

Really, for all the talk here about centers, I think this is easily the worst group of centers in the history of Historical Drafts. After the top 4-5 guys, everyone else is disappointing to me and can easily be slowed or rendered negligible by just decent defense.

Center was the weakest position when you consider quality of players and in the modern environment we are playing in it's the least important position.

Center is weak in this draft. I 100% agree with that

[Who]

PHOENIX  SUNS
Tony Parker/Norm Van Lier/Steve Kerr
Clyde Drexler/Devin Booker/J.J. Redick
Danny Granger/Hedo Turkoglu/Tayshaun Prince
Giannis Antetokounmpo/Anthony Mason/Bob Love
DeAndre Jordan/Carlos Boozer/Troy Murphy

I was surprised you did not select another center. I understand wanting to use Giannis at center and fully agree that is an excellent option but why did you not select a 3rd string center?

Someone that can give you a few minutes at center in a game where DeAndre isn't playing well or is in foul trouble. Or if you just want to say big because it is working well (your defensive size is dominating). A couple quick fouls to DeAndre and you have little alternative.

I thought a 3rd string center who can defend would have added more to your bench than 4 PFs.

Boozer played center throughout his career. At Utah he played the 5 alongside Millsap a ton but was always listed as a 4. In Chicago he played a bunch of center when Noah was out, which was a lot, and with their 2nd unit. He also played center in LA too.

While Boozer was listed as a 4, he played a bunch of center in his career.

Yeah but Boozer was a defensive liability there. So was Troy Murphy. They played there but they weren't very good.

A.Mason looks the best bet for defensive aid but he is still only 6-7 with low level shot-blocking.

It just feels off to me. That the team is over-reliant on DeAndre Jordan and over-exposed to any problems he has (poor performance or foul trouble).

Over reliant on Jordan? That makes no sense.

First, Jordan's main job is defense and rebounding versus the opponent's bigs. So he will be most important versus guys like Moses, Jokic, Gilmore and maybe Gasol. But all the other centers in this game aren't all that great offensively that Boozer can't be effective slowing them down. There is a few starting centers and many backups you don't even have to worry about what they bring offensively.

DeAndre is around a 24 minute a game role player. Add 12-15 minutes of elite small ball with Giannis at center and Boozer is getting like 10 minutes a game. Against most centers in this endeavor, especially bench ones, Boozer is fine.

Really, for all the talk here about centers, I think this is easily the worst group of centers in the history of Historical Drafts. After the top 4-5 guys, everyone else is disappointing to me and can easily be slowed or rendered negligible by just decent defense.

Center was the weakest position when you consider quality of players and in the modern environment we are playing in it's the least important position.

(1) With Boozer and T.Murphy, It's less about the 1-on-1 defense at center and more about the team defense. That is where the biggest drop off will be.

(2) Agreed on center being the least important position for today's game.

(3) Not sure if center is the weakest position in this league. It is certainly weak but I am also pretty down on the PF position. There is some competition between the two of them for weakest position for me.

(4) Over-reliant on D.Jordan because he is your only real center. Not because he is good player. Once you go past him, you have Giannis in small ball or guys playing out of position (Murphy, Mason, Boozer) in small ball.

[Who]

Sorry, I asked this before but I didn't see an answer.

When are the votes meant to be in by? Is it today or by the end of the weekend?

[nickagneta]

PHOENIX  SUNS
Tony Parker/Norm Van Lier/Steve Kerr
Clyde Drexler/Devin Booker/J.J. Redick
Danny Granger/Hedo Turkoglu/Tayshaun Prince
Giannis Antetokounmpo/Anthony Mason/Bob Love
DeAndre Jordan/Carlos Boozer/Troy Murphy

I was surprised you did not select another center. I understand wanting to use Giannis at center and fully agree that is an excellent option but why did you not select a 3rd string center?

Someone that can give you a few minutes at center in a game where DeAndre isn't playing well or is in foul trouble. Or if you just want to say big because it is working well (your defensive size is dominating). A couple quick fouls to DeAndre and you have little alternative.

I thought a 3rd string center who can defend would have added more to your bench than 4 PFs.

Boozer played center throughout his career. At Utah he played the 5 alongside Millsap a ton but was always listed as a 4. In Chicago he played a bunch of center when Noah was out, which was a lot, and with their 2nd unit. He also played center in LA too.

While Boozer was listed as a 4, he played a bunch of center in his career.

Yeah but Boozer was a defensive liability there. So was Troy Murphy. They played there but they weren't very good.

A.Mason looks the best bet for defensive aid but he is still only 6-7 with low level shot-blocking.

It just feels off to me. That the team is over-reliant on DeAndre Jordan and over-exposed to any problems he has (poor performance or foul trouble).

Over reliant on Jordan? That makes no sense.

First, Jordan's main job is defense and rebounding versus the opponent's bigs. So he will be most important versus guys like Moses, Jokic, Gilmore and maybe Gasol. But all the other centers in this game aren't all that great offensively that Boozer can't be effective slowing them down. There is a few starting centers and many backups you don't even have to worry about what they bring offensively.

DeAndre is around a 24 minute a game role player. Add 12-15 minutes of elite small ball with Giannis at center and Boozer is getting like 10 minutes a game. Against most centers in this endeavor, especially bench ones, Boozer is fine.

Really, for all the talk here about centers, I think this is easily the worst group of centers in the history of Historical Drafts. After the top 4-5 guys, everyone else is disappointing to me and can easily be slowed or rendered negligible by just decent defense.

Center was the weakest position when you consider quality of players and in the modern environment we are playing in it's the least important position.

(1) With Boozer and T.Murphy, It's less about the 1-on-1 defense at center and more about the team defense. That is where the biggest drop off will be.

(2) Agreed on center being the least important position for today's game.

(3) Not sure if center is the weakest position in this league. It is certainly weak but I am also pretty down on the PF position. There is some competition between the two of them for weakest position for me.

(4) Over-reliant on D.Jordan because he is your only real center. Not because he is good player. Once you go past him, you have Giannis in small ball or guys playing out of position (Murphy, Mason, Boozer) in small ball.

Forget Murphy, he will almost never play. He is my 15th man in the rotation. Boozer is like my 10th player in the rotation. If in his 10 MPG he has a +/- of 0, he'll have done his job.

And as for playing small, that is the plan, small ball. The Suns will force others to adjust to our style. It won't be the other way around.

Also my small ball lineup

Giannis 6'11" 242 lbs center
Hedo 6'10" 220 lbs or Granger 6'9" 220 lbs power forward
Clyde 6'7" 210 lbs small forward
Booker 6'5" 205 lbs shooting guard
Redick 6'3" 200 lbs point guard

Not really small. 😉😋😎

[nickagneta]

Sorry, I asked this before but I didn't see an answer.

When are the votes meant to be in by? Is it today or by the end of the weekend?

I think gouki said to send them in by latest tomorrow but if he doesn't have a vote from everyone he is willing to extend the time.

[Moranis]

PHOENIX  SUNS
Tony Parker/Norm Van Lier/Steve Kerr
Clyde Drexler/Devin Booker/J.J. Redick
Danny Granger/Hedo Turkoglu/Tayshaun Prince
Giannis Antetokounmpo/Anthony Mason/Bob Love
DeAndre Jordan/Carlos Boozer/Troy Murphy

I was surprised you did not select another center. I understand wanting to use Giannis at center and fully agree that is an excellent option but why did you not select a 3rd string center?

Someone that can give you a few minutes at center in a game where DeAndre isn't playing well or is in foul trouble. Or if you just want to say big because it is working well (your defensive size is dominating). A couple quick fouls to DeAndre and you have little alternative.

I thought a 3rd string center who can defend would have added more to your bench than 4 PFs.

Boozer played center throughout his career. At Utah he played the 5 alongside Millsap a ton but was always listed as a 4. In Chicago he played a bunch of center when Noah was out, which was a lot, and with their 2nd unit. He also played center in LA too.

While Boozer was listed as a 4, he played a bunch of center in his career.

Yeah but Boozer was a defensive liability there. So was Troy Murphy. They played there but they weren't very good.

A.Mason looks the best bet for defensive aid but he is still only 6-7 with low level shot-blocking.

It just feels off to me. That the team is over-reliant on DeAndre Jordan and over-exposed to any problems he has (poor performance or foul trouble).

Over reliant on Jordan? That makes no sense.

First, Jordan's main job is defense and rebounding versus the opponent's bigs. So he will be most important versus guys like Moses, Jokic, Gilmore and maybe Gasol. But all the other centers in this game aren't all that great offensively that Boozer can't be effective slowing them down. There is a few starting centers and many backups you don't even have to worry about what they bring offensively.

DeAndre is around a 24 minute a game role player. Add 12-15 minutes of elite small ball with Giannis at center and Boozer is getting like 10 minutes a game. Against most centers in this endeavor, especially bench ones, Boozer is fine.

Really, for all the talk here about centers, I think this is easily the worst group of centers in the history of Historical Drafts. After the top 4-5 guys, everyone else is disappointing to me and can easily be slowed or rendered negligible by just decent defense.

Center was the weakest position when you consider quality of players and in the modern environment we are playing in it's the least important position.

(1) With Boozer and T.Murphy, It's less about the 1-on-1 defense at center and more about the team defense. That is where the biggest drop off will be.

(2) Agreed on center being the least important position for today's game.

(3) Not sure if center is the weakest position in this league. It is certainly weak but I am also pretty down on the PF position. There is some competition between the two of them for weakest position for me.

(4) Over-reliant on D.Jordan because he is your only real center. Not because he is good player. Once you go past him, you have Giannis in small ball or guys playing out of position (Murphy, Mason, Boozer) in small ball.

Forget Murphy, he will almost never play. He is my 15th man in the rotation. Boozer is like my 10th player in the rotation. If in his 10 MPG he has a +/- of 0, he'll have done his job.

And as for playing small, that is the plan, small ball. The Suns will force others to adjust to our style. It won't be the other way around.

Also my small ball lineup

Giannis 6'11" 242 lbs center
Hedo 6'10" 220 lbs or Granger 6'9" 220 lbs power forward
Clyde 6'7" 210 lbs small forward
Booker 6'5" 205 lbs shooting guard
Redick 6'3" 200 lbs point guard

Not really small. 😉😋😎

But it is at least down low.  Hedo is super skinny and not very strong.  He was a poor defender and can't guard anyone in the interior.  I mentioned this during the draft, but i think you are going to get brutalized if you play Giannis at center, especially at over 10 minutes a game.  He is already a guy that can barely play 32 minutes and now you want to put the added strain of having to guard players in the post (because he has to do it as no one else can).  I think you'd be much better off playing Mason at PF in that setting because he can at least guard the PF sized interior players in the post.  That doesn't fully correct the Giannis having to guard a center take, because he will, and that imo is a terrible idea.  And I wasn't joking about the 32 mpg.  Giannis doesn't play very many minutes and he hasn't really even ramped up in the playoffs.  He isn't a guy that is going to play 40 minutes of highly effective basketball, you are going to get 32ish minutes out of him, which I think is more like 28 if you make him play center for any real period of time because that will just wear on him.  He is quite simply just going to get worn down, and since you are so reliant on him, you shouldn't put him in the situations that are going to require him to work in the paint.  And I know you think you will have an advantage on the other end of the floor, but I don't think it is nearly as great as you think, nor will it have lasting positive impact. 

I absolutely agree with Who, you needed to take another real center.  Even someone like Al Jefferson that I nabbed in the last round would have helped a lot more than what you have.  You have no size and you are going to pay for that because size does matter, especially when you force your best player to play out of position for a lot of minutes.