Westbrook for Wall and 1st - DONE

[CFAN38]

This will be an interesting trade to watch play out over the season.

If you tier the eastern conference teams into playoff locks (bare major injures) and battling to make playoffs I would project the following

Locks

Bucks
Celtics
76ers
Heat
Nets

Battle for last 3 spots

Raptors
Pacers
Wizards
Hawks

Looking at the bottom 4 teams the Wizards now become the one that I would most worry about playing in a playoff series. Hachimura's and Bryant's defense is a weakness that the Cs can exploit but if Advija comes into the league as the versatile player he was projected as in the draft then Beal, Westbrook, Bertans, and Advija create am interesting match up for the Cs particularly with who Kemba defends.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

So, of the trades out there and available for Harden, what is the best deal?

Nets: Lavert, Allen, Dinwiddie, three firsts and two swaps
Most likely rumored destination. Supposedly where Harden wants to be. Good trade package for a rebuild if you think Lavert can stay healthy. I have my doubts. If that's questionable, this trade package ends up being pretty bad.

Nuggets: Harris, Barton, Porter, Bol, three firsts and two swaps
I think Harden and Jokic have opposite styles of play, but they are intelligent players. Maybe they could figure it out. It seems like the Nuggets are primed to make a big move to get one more piece. Beal makes more sense working off of Jokic' playmaking.

Heat: Olynyk, Igoudala, Herro, Nunn, one first and two swaps (no more available)
A dark horse possibility if the Rockets think Herro is a future all-star. Still, the Heat don't have all their picks, which makes this a much less enticing option.

Bucks: Middleton, Divencenzo (no firsts available after Holliday trade)
I can't see this deal happening. Not fair value for the Rockets and Middleton doesn't fit the rebuild timeline.

Knicks: Randle, Barrett, Knox, Robinson three firsts and two swaps
I find this one unlikely as well. The Knicks would have Toppin and Harden and a bunch of scrubs. Knicks are a bit crazy and I think they are desperate to field a competitive team right now. Honestly, this trade package isn't very good for the Rockets.

Sixers: Simmons, firsts and swaps (not sure what the Sixers would put on the table)
Another rumored deal out there. Simmons is by far the best player available in any of these trades so far. He's still a generational talent. The idea of a frontcourt with Wood (reaching his potential) and Simmons is pretty tasty. I don't like Simmons' fit with Wall at all, and the Rockets will have a tough time moving Wall to build a better team around Simmons before his contract runs out.

Celtics: I don't even want to tarnish the names of this Celtic team by including them in a trade idea for Harden. I like our guys. I'm just saying that if Ainge was interested and Harden was willing to be a Celtic, the Celtics could put together a trade package at least on the same level as any other trade package here, and probably better. Tatum/Harden would immediately become the second or third best duo in the NBA. No matter what players go out, I really think the supporting cast for those two would still be high-level.

[CFAN38]

So, of the trades out there and available for Harden, what is the best deal?

Nets: Lavert, Allen, Dinwiddie, three firsts and two swaps
Most likely rumored destination. Supposedly where Harden wants to be. Good trade package for a rebuild if you think Lavert can stay healthy. I have my doubts. If that's questionable, this trade package ends up being pretty bad.

Nuggets: Harris, Barton, Porter, Bol, three firsts and two swaps
I think Harden and Jokic have opposite styles of play, but they are intelligent players. Maybe they could figure it out. It seems like the Nuggets are primed to make a big move to get one more piece. Beal makes more sense working off of Jokic' playmaking.

Heat: Olynyk, Igoudala, Herro, Nunn, one first and two swaps (no more available)
A dark horse possibility if the Rockets think Herro is a future all-star. Still, the Rockets don't have all their picks, which makes this a much less enticing option.

Bucks: Middleton, Divencenzo (no firsts available after Holliday trade)
I can't see this deal happening. Not fair value for the Rockets and Middleton doesn't fit the rebuild timeline.

Knicks: Randle, Barrett, Knox, Robinson three firsts and two swaps
I find this one unlikely as well. The Knicks would have Toppin and Harden and a bunch of scrubs. Knicks are a bit crazy and I think they are desperate to field a competitive team right now. Honestly, this trade package isn't very good for the Rockets.

Sixers: Simmons, firsts and swaps (not sure what the Sixers would put on the table)
Another rumored deal out there. Simmons is by far the best player available in any of these trades so far. He's still a generational talent. The idea of a frontcourt with Wood (reaching his potential) and Simmons is pretty tasty. I don't like Simmons' fit with Wall at all, and the Rockets will have a tough time moving Wall to build a better team around Simmons before his contract runs out.

Celtics: I don't even want to tarnish the names of this Celtic team by including them in a trade idea for Harden. I like our guys. I'm just saying that if Ainge was interested and Harden was willing to be a Celtic, the Celtics could put together a trade package at least on the same level as any other trade package here, and probably better. Tatum/Harden would immediately become the second or third best duo in the NBA. No matter what players go out, I really think the supporting cast for those two would still be high-level.

I would say 76ers or Heat offer.

I find it hard to believe that the 76er (Morey) wouldn't be more interested in an Embiid for Harden trade. Unless they know Simmons is going to walk as a FA.  I could see them implementing a lineup in the playoffs with Simmons at the 5 and Harris at the 4 that would be really tough for teams to matchup against. For the 76ers Wall is at least a better partner for Embiid then Simmons for the simple fact that he is willing to shoot 3s.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

So, of the trades out there and available for Harden, what is the best deal?

Nets: Lavert, Allen, Dinwiddie, three firsts and two swaps
Most likely rumored destination. Supposedly where Harden wants to be. Good trade package for a rebuild if you think Lavert can stay healthy. I have my doubts. If that's questionable, this trade package ends up being pretty bad.

Nuggets: Harris, Barton, Porter, Bol, three firsts and two swaps
I think Harden and Jokic have opposite styles of play, but they are intelligent players. Maybe they could figure it out. It seems like the Nuggets are primed to make a big move to get one more piece. Beal makes more sense working off of Jokic' playmaking.

Heat: Olynyk, Igoudala, Herro, Nunn, one first and two swaps (no more available)
A dark horse possibility if the Rockets think Herro is a future all-star. Still, the Rockets don't have all their picks, which makes this a much less enticing option.

Bucks: Middleton, Divencenzo (no firsts available after Holliday trade)
I can't see this deal happening. Not fair value for the Rockets and Middleton doesn't fit the rebuild timeline.

Knicks: Randle, Barrett, Knox, Robinson three firsts and two swaps
I find this one unlikely as well. The Knicks would have Toppin and Harden and a bunch of scrubs. Knicks are a bit crazy and I think they are desperate to field a competitive team right now. Honestly, this trade package isn't very good for the Rockets.

Sixers: Simmons, firsts and swaps (not sure what the Sixers would put on the table)
Another rumored deal out there. Simmons is by far the best player available in any of these trades so far. He's still a generational talent. The idea of a frontcourt with Wood (reaching his potential) and Simmons is pretty tasty. I don't like Simmons' fit with Wall at all, and the Rockets will have a tough time moving Wall to build a better team around Simmons before his contract runs out.

Celtics: I don't even want to tarnish the names of this Celtic team by including them in a trade idea for Harden. I like our guys. I'm just saying that if Ainge was interested and Harden was willing to be a Celtic, the Celtics could put together a trade package at least on the same level as any other trade package here, and probably better. Tatum/Harden would immediately become the second or third best duo in the NBA. No matter what players go out, I really think the supporting cast for those two would still be high-level.

I would say 76ers or Heat offer.

I find it hard to believe that the 76er (Morey) wouldn't be more interested in an Embiid for Harden trade. Unless they know Simmons is going to walk as a FA.  I could see them implementing a lineup in the playoffs with Simmons at the 5 and Harris at the 4 that would be really tough for teams to matchup against. For the 76ers Wall is at least a better partner for Embiid then Simmons for the simple fact that he is willing to shoot 3s.

Good point.

[Vermont Green]

I will go on the record and say that this is good for Washington.  I think a Westbrook-Beal pairing is better for Westbrook than Westbrook-Harden.  As for Beal, to pair with Westbrook over Wall, hard to say since you don't really know what incarnation of Wall you will get after not playing for two seasons but you get the whole "fresh start" thing which I think will result in a positive for Beal.

As for Houston, I don't know what they are doing.  It doesn't seem that the plan is to try and win a championship with Wall and Harden (but maybe).  They did pick up Cousins and Christian Wood plus still have Tucker but ouch, no draft picks, top heavy roster (Spotrac is reporting that Wall's trade Kicker is void due to being over the max salary).  I think they are in trouble.  If healthy (big if) Wall is a grittier, tougher, player than Westbrook and may be a better complement to Harden but hard to imagine Wall coming back and being great again.

[Moranis]

Yeah I don't get the Houston part of this at all.  I think someone would have given them a better package than Wall and a mid to late 1st (given the protections it won't be a good pick).  Now maybe they think Wall is mostly back to form and will keep them relevant, but to not at least get multiple draft picks or another young player just seems like a bad move for Houston.  I mean at least get Bonga, Robinson, and/or Wagner.  You know usable guys on rookie contracts, especially when Houston could use some depth. 

[Birdman]

Washington starting 5:

PG-Westbrook
SG-Beal
SF-Bertans
PF-Hachimura
C—Bryant

Doubt a playoff team, also bench is weak..

[Donoghus]

Been thinking about this trade and really having trouble seeing how it moves the needle much for either squad.  Maybe Wizards sneak into the playoffs a low seed now?  It really does seem like one of those garbage in, garbage out moves.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Ok, so here's a theory. Maybe the Rockets were working out a trade for Harden, but he didn't want to go to that team. Maybe he told them he wanted to go to the Nets, but the Nets know that they are his preferred destination and therefore they are not giving up a key piece or two in the trade.

By trading Westbrook, you take away part of Harden's leverage, and therefore part of the Nets' leverage. It's kinda' like saying, "Oh, you don't want to go to such-and-such a team? Fine. Do you really want to try to win with John Wall this year? Do you want to waste another year of your prime?"

The next move would be to trade Tucker and/or Gordon for expirings, future picks, and young players. I think they could find a playoff team to take both players in while getting an expiring and a pick/prospect back.

[Somebody]

Is it weird that I actually prefer Wall over Westbrook at this point in their careers? I think Westbrook brings very little value to better and better teams while Wall still has his passing and defence that can help high level teams (he can also shoot the midrange well for some floor spacing).

The way I remember Westbrook’s season ending was with turnovers, air balls , and bad hero ball. That’s why you might prefer the guy who hasn’t played. Wall has a lot of the same flaws as Westbrook, as I remember from playoffs past, but it’s further in the past so Wall seems more desirable.

Wall has his flaws, but I think his game scales better than Westbrook next to on-ball talent. The fit still sucks, but he's a plus defender, can somewhat shoot (Westbrook has no three point shot at all at this point in his career and blows hot and cold from the midrange) and is a better passer, these skills can still contribute positive value to high level teams.

[Vermont Green]

Houston sends:
Chris Paul
2021 swap
2024 first
2025 swap
2026 first

Houston receives:
John Wall (after 2 years off)
2023 first

This is really the bottom line.  It is not so much about the Westbrook for Wall trade, it is more about what they gave up to get Westbrook in the first place.  I guess the GM who made that trade has been fired (and quickly rehired) but that is really the source of the problems.

Chris Paul and Harden were pretty good together.  If I recall, they had a strong playoff run until Chris Paul got injured.  They gave up way too much for Westbrook.

I actually like Wall.  He is (was) a tough, big time player.  Just don't see him staying healthy at this point.  I guess Houston figured cut their losses with Westbrook, get at least one pick back, and take a chance on Wall.  As I said, this trade is probably not so bad, and may even work out, it is the first Westbrook trade that is haunting them.

[Moranis]

Houston sends:
Chris Paul
2021 swap
2024 first
2025 swap
2026 first

Houston receives:
John Wall (after 2 years off)
2023 first

This is really the bottom line.  It is not so much about the Westbrook for Wall trade, it is more about what they gave up to get Westbrook in the first place.  I guess the GM who made that trade has been fired (and quickly rehired) but that is really the source of the problems.

Chris Paul and Harden were pretty good together.  If I recall, they had a strong playoff run until Chris Paul got injured.  They gave up way too much for Westbrook.

I actually like Wall.  He is (was) a tough, big time player.  Just don't see him staying healthy at this point.  I guess Houston figured cut their losses with Westbrook, get at least one pick back, and take a chance on Wall.  As I said, this trade is probably not so bad, and may even work out, it is the first Westbrook trade that is haunting them.

From what has been reported when Tillman Fertitta bought the team he told Morey to move Chris Paul no matter the cost calling it the worst contract he had ever seen (or something like that).  He didn't want to pay him that kind of money and not many teams would take Paul, so that is what they were left with.  I do wonder if they should have tried to move him to Washington for Wall.  They might have actually gotten a pick since Wall was injured and had just as bad a contract (of course that would have wasted last year for the Rockets).

[moiso]

Is it weird that I actually prefer Wall over Westbrook at this point in their careers? I think Westbrook brings very little value to better and better teams while Wall still has his passing and defence that can help high level teams (he can also shoot the midrange well for some floor spacing).

The way I remember Westbrook’s season ending was with turnovers, air balls , and bad hero ball. That’s why you might prefer the guy who hasn’t played. Wall has a lot of the same flaws as Westbrook, as I remember from playoffs past, but it’s further in the past so Wall seems more desirable.

Wall has his flaws, but I think his game scales better than Westbrook next to on-ball talent. The fit still sucks, but he's a plus defender, can somewhat shoot (Westbrook has no three point shot at all at this point in his career and blows hot and cold from the midrange) and is a better passer, these skills can still contribute positive value to high level teams.

I agree with you.  I think Westbrook is a better player but I think Wall will fit in with a team much better than Westbrook will... unless it's a lottery team and you want Westbrook to do everything for you which he likes to do.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

People are claiming that John Wall, the guy who hasn't played in two full years, who couldn't shoot and was struggling to defend the last time we saw him, and who has major red flags with how hard he plays and wanting to be the alpha -- that guy is better than Russell Westbrook?

I know that Westbrook is an obtuse play style to fit into your team, but there is no doubt he highly impacts the game in a positive way when you put the ball in his hands.

When John Wall comes back, he might be essentially Eric Bledsoe, or a less efficient Eric Bledsoe that shoots more.

[PhoSita]

Does this mean Harden is going to get traded?  There's no reason to think Wall is a winning player at this point.