Hayward and Kyrie's injuries derailed Ainge's genius

[Ogaju]

I was just thinking that the impact of the injuries to Hayward and Kyrie in their first year with the Celtics have been significantlly underemphasized by fans and NBA 'experts'.

Ainge had concluded one of the best trades in NBA history and had cashed in successfully on the assets he accumulated from that trade. He had a solid young core in Tatum, Smart, and Brown. Armed with this exciting future he made his move and brought in prized free agent of the year Gordon Hayward and then went spending and traded for NBA Champion point guard with unequalled ball handling skills who had been picked #1 in his draft class and had demonstrated clutch ability in the league - Kyrie Irving. Celtic Nation was excited the rebuild was complete, the team was ready. There was a healthy mix of veteran and youth on this team. The team started Brown, Hayward, Horford, Tatum, and Irving. The three accomplished vets with the young duo that were yet to come into their own. That is the right mix for a championship. Barely five minutes into the season the injury to Hayward happened, and the impact of this injury has not been approriately analyzed probably because the team exceeded all expectations after that injury. I believe it was Charles Barkley that proclaimed that the Celtics were done for the season after that injury.  The impact of the injury was dulled by the team's eventual appearance in the ECF only to lose in game 7. The success of the team led people to ignore the following facts

1. It thrust a rookie into a leadership role much too  early. The rookie year that he should have used to learn from the vets and shore up his confidence became the year he had to lead the team. He performed very well, but even that success would lead to problems in the following season.

2. The rookies role would become even larger when the guy brought in to lead the team - Kyrie Irving - went down for the season. The loss of the two vets obviously set back the timetable for this team that had championship aspirations at the beginning of the season. Rookies do not lead teams to chamionships in the NBA. Transcendant players such as Michael Jordan, Shaq O'Neal, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Hakeem Olajuwon, Kevin Durant, spent years in the league, and had to get help before they won their championships. So asking Tatum to lead the Cs to a championship during his rookie contract was and is a tall order. Try he did though, with amazing success which would turn out to be the bane of the following season.

3. When the vets returned the following season they returned the rookies bouyed by their past season success mishandled their success and refused to fall back in the pecking order. It turned out that there was no one to restore the pecking order and it led to a lost season, and the loss for nothing of one of the necessary elements to a championship - Kyrie Irving. The team lost to Milwaukee in the second round and most analysts credited Giannis but the credit for this loss was, in my opinion, the fracture that had developed in the pecking order on the Celtics. The players on their rookie contracts that had probably overachieved the year before when the vets were out injured refused to return to their place in the order. They were not ready to lead, and they did not know it. Their 'leader' Kyrie could not deal with the insurgency and left town.

Perhaps the Cs would have been better off if Barkley's prediction was realized, if that team had been 'done' after the injury to Hayward. Maybe the rookies would have welcomed the return of their 'leaders' instead of challenging their authority.

Did anyone tell the rookies they were dealing in 'fool's gold'? After all, they only beat the Bucks 4-3 in  the first round, and though they beat Philly 4-1 they only outscored Philly by 5 points total in the series, before they eventually lost to a bad Cavs team powered by LBJ. Perhaps if they had got back in their place they do not lose the veterans that were ready to lead a championship team - Kyrie left and Horford left. Someone should have reminded the rookies that you do not lead chamionship teams on your rookie contract.

Ainge tried to save the plan by brining in Kemba, but by that time Tatum had solidified his position as team leader, with Kemba and Hayward deferring to him, and that is not a recipe for a championship.

Now with everyone realizing that this is Tatum's team the impact of those injuries in 2017-2018 can be fully appreciated and the Cs must chart a new timetable to a championship and act accordingly.

[86MaxwellSmart]

Karma for trading IT....who gave us all he had and got injured, after his sister had died.

[gouki88]

Karma for trading IT....who gave us all he had and got injured, after his sister had died.

Would have much rather kept IT and then see him try and demand big money in free agency

[hpantazo]

Maybe we are going to have to add Kemba's injury to that list.

KG's knee issue and Perk's ACL tear also cost us at least one banner if not two.

[jambr380]

I agree with everything you said. Hayward's injury ruined Ainge's great masterpiece; and Kyrie's injury only exacerbated that. The funny thing is, though, if not for two arbitrary rules, Ainge could have salvaged the situation and continued with the great team he built.

The first rule was the Rose Rule which prevented Ainge from trading for AD mid-season. I am still not sure why two players signed to rookie extensions can't be on the same team, but alas. Being able to acquire AD would have cleared out some of the extra talent that we had and allowed us at least two post-season runs with AD. It also would have prevented the Lakers from winning a Title this past season.

The other rule was not being allowed to sign Kyrie to an actual 30% max extension the offseason before we imploded. You know, the one where he said, 'if you will have me back.' If we were allowed to give him that max when he still wanted to be here, we would have him locked in for at least 4 more years. Instead, we were only allowed to offer him a certain amount over what he was earning, which was much lower than the new max due to the cap spike.

Even with the unfortunate injuries, we could still have a superstar team, have multiple Titles, and be talking about more if just weren't for these stupid rules.

It's incredible Danny has us where we are despite all the bad luck. Plan A (win with All-Star veterans and premium rookies) in the short term didn't work out, but we hit it out of the park on with those BKN picks and our future is still really bright. Still, what could have been?

[mef730]

I agree with everything you said. Hayward's injury ruined Ainge's great masterpiece; and Kyrie's injury only exacerbated that. The funny thing is, though, if not for two arbitrary rules, Ainge could have salvaged the situation and continued with the great team he built.

The first rule was the Rose Rule which prevented Ainge from trading for AD mid-season. I am still not sure why two players signed to rookie extensions can't be on the same team, but alas. Being able to acquire AD would have cleared out some of the extra talent that we had and allowed us at least two post-season runs with AD. It also would have prevented the Lakers from winning a Title this past season.

The other rule was not being allowed to sign Kyrie to an actual 30% max extension the offseason before we imploded. You know, the one where he said, 'if you will have me back.' If we were allowed to give him that max when he still wanted to be here, we would have him locked in for at least 4 more years. Instead, we were only allowed to offer him a certain amount over what he was earning, which was much lower than the new max due to the cap spike.

Even with the unfortunate injuries, we could still have a superstar team, have multiple Titles, and be talking about more if just weren't for these stupid rules.

It's incredible Danny has us where we are despite all the bad luck. Plan A (win with All-Star veterans and premium rookies) in the short term didn't work out, but we hit it out of the park on with those BKN picks and our future is still really bright. Still, what could have been?

Would either of those helped us, though? AD seemed pretty set on playing in LA and Kyrie has been "all injuries, all the time."

Mike

[jambr380]

Karma for trading IT....who gave us all he had and got injured, after his sister had died.

Lol - yeah, poor IT. We sent him to the lowly Cavs to be the starting PG for the EC favorites led by Lebron. Teams trade players. It sucks that he got injured, it sucks that his sister died, but these are not reasons you sit by and fail to improve your team. IT didn't even choose to sign with us; we traded a late 1st for him and he played here for most of 3 seasons. If IT had already signed a big contract, nobody would be saying anything. They just feel bad that IT got hurt before getting paid and are looking for someone to blame - and Danny is the easiest punching bag.

[jambr380]

I agree with everything you said. Hayward's injury ruined Ainge's great masterpiece; and Kyrie's injury only exacerbated that. The funny thing is, though, if not for two arbitrary rules, Ainge could have salvaged the situation and continued with the great team he built.

The first rule was the Rose Rule which prevented Ainge from trading for AD mid-season. I am still not sure why two players signed to rookie extensions can't be on the same team, but alas. Being able to acquire AD would have cleared out some of the extra talent that we had and allowed us at least two post-season runs with AD. It also would have prevented the Lakers from winning a Title this past season.

The other rule was not being allowed to sign Kyrie to an actual 30% max extension the offseason before we imploded. You know, the one where he said, 'if you will have me back.' If we were allowed to give him that max when he still wanted to be here, we would have him locked in for at least 4 more years. Instead, we were only allowed to offer him a certain amount over what he was earning, which was much lower than the new max due to the cap spike.

Even with the unfortunate injuries, we could still have a superstar team, have multiple Titles, and be talking about more if just weren't for these stupid rules.

It's incredible Danny has us where we are despite all the bad luck. Plan A (win with All-Star veterans and premium rookies) in the short term didn't work out, but we hit it out of the park on with those BKN picks and our future is still really bright. Still, what could have been?

Would either of those helped us, though? AD seemed pretty set on playing in LA and Kyrie has been "all injuries, all the time."

Mike

We would have had at least two playoff runs with AD, not just one. And we could have load managed Kyrie. AD would only have been able to sign with LAL this offseason (he only just became a UFA). If we had a couple of ECF/Finals runs and things were going well, I have to imagine he would seriously be considering a max with us. Besides, LAL might have already moved on. They already wasted a Lebron season in 2018-19, hard to believe they would have done the same in 19-20.

[Ogaju]

I agree with everything you said. Hayward's injury ruined Ainge's great masterpiece; and Kyrie's injury only exacerbated that. The funny thing is, though, if not for two arbitrary rules, Ainge could have salvaged the situation and continued with the great team he built.

The first rule was the Rose Rule which prevented Ainge from trading for AD mid-season. I am still not sure why two players signed to rookie extensions can't be on the same team, but alas. Being able to acquire AD would have cleared out some of the extra talent that we had and allowed us at least two post-season runs with AD. It also would have prevented the Lakers from winning a Title this past season.

The other rule was not being allowed to sign Kyrie to an actual 30% max extension the offseason before we imploded. You know, the one where he said, 'if you will have me back.' If we were allowed to give him that max when he still wanted to be here, we would have him locked in for at least 4 more years. Instead, we were only allowed to offer him a certain amount over what he was earning, which was much lower than the new max due to the cap spike.

Even with the unfortunate injuries, we could still have a superstar team, have multiple Titles, and be talking about more if just weren't for these stupid rules.

It's incredible Danny has us where we are despite all the bad luck. Plan A (win with All-Star veterans and premium rookies) in the short term didn't work out, but we hit it out of the park on with those BKN picks and our future is still really bright. Still, what could have been?

Would either of those helped us, though? AD seemed pretty set on playing in LA and Kyrie has been "all injuries, all the time."

Mike

if AD had been available I think Ainge trades for him anyway and tries to convince him to stay. All the rumors pointed to Ainge really wanting AD.

[Roy H.]

There’s a universe where our lineup is:

Horford / Baynes
Davis / Morris
Tatum
Hayward
Kyrie

... with all of the above healthy and happy.

It just didn’t work out.

[GreenlyGreeny]

Trading IT was the big mistake. It tasted bad at the time, but we convinced ourselves it had to be done because it was bringing in Kyrie, the guy who could help us topple LeBron. Ultimately, it ruined the Celtics/Ainge’s reputation with many players throughout the league. We are incredibly lucky Kemba agreed to come here, which is why he needs the royal treatment to play out his contract here.

If we had stuck with IT and passed on Kyrie, the 2017-2018 season would have been roughly the same situation, but perhaps we later make a deal for AD and/or Kawhi, and currently have a championship big three revolving around one or both and Tatum/maybe Brown.

C’est la vie. Ainge gets 2020-2021 to bring the championship home, or bring in RC Buford for a new rebuild around Tatum.

[Ogaju]

I know we are speculating here, but who has the keys now. Tatum or Kemba? If it is Tatum, at what point does he begin to make demands about the roster and the coaching?

[BoulderMike]

Tatum or Kemba?  LOL


Tatum, with Brown as his #2.  Kemba has no sway.  He is only here as long as Tatum says his presence is acceptable.

[Ogaju]

Tatum or Kemba?  LOL


Tatum, with Brown as his #2.  Kemba has no sway.  He is only here as long as Tatum says his presence is acceptable.

well make that clear and be resigned to the reality that you have at least another 3 years to a championship.

[ozgod]

I was just thinking that the impact of the injuries to Hayward and Kyrie in their first year with the Celtics have been significantlly underemphasized by fans and NBA 'experts'.

Ainge had concluded one of the best trades in NBA history and had cashed in successfully on the assets he accumulated from that trade. He had a solid young core in Tatum, Smart, and Brown. Armed with this exciting future he made his move and brought in prized free agent of the year Gordon Hayward and then went spending and traded for NBA Champion point guard with unequalled ball handling skills who had been picked #1 in his draft class and had demonstrated clutch ability in the league - Kyrie Irving. Celtic Nation was excited the rebuild was complete, the team was ready. There was a healthy mix of veteran and youth on this team. The team started Brown, Hayward, Horford, Tatum, and Irving. The three accomplished vets with the young duo that were yet to come into their own. That is the right mix for a championship. Barely five minutes into the season the injury to Hayward happened, and the impact of this injury has not been approriately analyzed probably because the team exceeded all expectations after that injury. I believe it was Charles Barkley that proclaimed that the Celtics were done for the season after that injury.  The impact of the injury was dulled by the team's eventual appearance in the ECF only to lose in game 7. The success of the team led people to ignore the following facts

1. It thrust a rookie into a leadership role much too  early. The rookie year that he should have used to learn from the vets and shore up his confidence became the year he had to lead the team. He performed very well, but even that success would lead to problems in the following season.

2. The rookies role would become even larger when the guy brought in to lead the team - Kyrie Irving - went down for the season. The loss of the two vets obviously set back the timetable for this team that had championship aspirations at the beginning of the season. Rookies do not lead teams to chamionships in the NBA. Transcendant players such as Michael Jordan, Shaq O'Neal, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Hakeem Olajuwon, Kevin Durant, spent years in the league, and had to get help before they won their championships. So asking Tatum to lead the Cs to a championship during his rookie contract was and is a tall order. Try he did though, with amazing success which would turn out to be the bane of the following season.

3. When the vets returned the following season they returned the rookies bouyed by their past season success mishandled their success and refused to fall back in the pecking order. It turned out that there was no one to restore the pecking order and it led to a lost season, and the loss for nothing of one of the necessary elements to a championship - Kyrie Irving. The team lost to Milwaukee in the second round and most analysts credited Giannis but the credit for this loss was, in my opinion, the fracture that had developed in the pecking order on the Celtics. The players on their rookie contracts that had probably overachieved the year before when the vets were out injured refused to return to their place in the order. They were not ready to lead, and they did not know it. Their 'leader' Kyrie could not deal with the insurgency and left town.

Perhaps the Cs would have been better off if Barkley's prediction was realized, if that team had been 'done' after the injury to Hayward. Maybe the rookies would have welcomed the return of their 'leaders' instead of challenging their authority.

Did anyone tell the rookies they were dealing in 'fool's gold'? After all, they only beat the Bucks 4-3 in  the first round, and though they beat Philly 4-1 they only outscored Philly by 5 points total in the series, before they eventually lost to a bad Cavs team powered by LBJ. Perhaps if they had got back in their place they do not lose the veterans that were ready to lead a championship team - Kyrie left and Horford left. Someone should have reminded the rookies that you do not lead chamionship teams on your rookie contract.

Ainge tried to save the plan by brining in Kemba, but by that time Tatum had solidified his position as team leader, with Kemba and Hayward deferring to him, and that is not a recipe for a championship.

Now with everyone realizing that this is Tatum's team the impact of those injuries in 2017-2018 can be fully appreciated and the Cs must chart a new timetable to a championship and act accordingly.

TP Ogaju. Goes to show that no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy, and part of where Danny earns his pay is not in planning for best-case scenarios, but adapting to the hand that fortune deals him. Given the tumult in our team the last 4 years it's remarkable that we really only had one fail year which was the year that everyone was healthy and nobody was happy because nobody was in charge. Hopefully now everyone knows it's Tatum's team, but let's also hope that Tatum is wise enough to know that he doesn't know everything, doesn't need to do everything, and that there's no I in team. In a way, I think G's departure streamlines our team a bit as well.