Explain - Why No TPE With The Hayward Trade?

[BitterJim]

Some (very) basic analysis on this topic:

https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2020/11/why-a-gordon-hayward-sign-and-trade-is-so-important-for-the-boston-celtics.html

p.s. ~ I'm not interested in Harden.

Great article, Thanks.
I hear Danny doesn't use TPEs very often. Why would that be ?

Nobody uses TPEs often. They just expire the vase majority of the time, but the flexibility they give you while active can be big

[Roy H.]

Some (very) basic analysis on this topic:

https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2020/11/why-a-gordon-hayward-sign-and-trade-is-so-important-for-the-boston-celtics.html

p.s. ~ I'm not interested in Harden.

Great article, Thanks.
I hear Danny doesn't use TPEs very often. Why would that be ?

Nobody uses TPEs often. They just expire the vase majority of the time, but the flexibility they give you while active can be big

Yep.  We used one to acquire Marcus Thornton, and got a #1 out of it.  We then flipped that for IT.

[todd_days_41]

Some (very) basic analysis on this topic:

https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2020/11/why-a-gordon-hayward-sign-and-trade-is-so-important-for-the-boston-celtics.html

p.s. ~ I'm not interested in Harden.

Great article, Thanks.
I hear Danny doesn't use TPEs very often. Why would that be ?

Nobody uses TPEs often. They just expire the vase majority of the time, but the flexibility they give you while active can be big

Agreed -- but for a team over the cap, it basically the only avenue to acquire a well paid vet outside of trading a core player (with matching salary). With an interesting pool of FAs coming up in 2021, there may be some nice names on expiring contracts to be acquired this year before the trade deadline.

[NKY fan]

I know it’s easy after the fact but why did we have to give away picks to clear the salaries of Kanter and Poirier?
Couldn’t we just attach them to Hayward and get Batum in return? This way we keep dollar’s we paid OKC and keep the 30th pick... we could also get a second rounder out of the hornets for saving them dead $$ on their cap sheet...
I guess my point is that draft night trades are too volatile in terms of value received and Danny hasn’t been the best at those the last 7-8 drafts... also we would have a big expiring to trade for a good player at the deadline
I’m just rambling lol

[todd_days_41]

A little more context on this from Chris Mannix:

https://www.si.com/nba/2020/11/23/nba-free-agency-best-worst-deals

While I don't always agree with him, and have some gripes with what he says here, the most important point he makes is this: we don't really know what the dynamics of the the discussion with IND were.

For example, I seriously doubt Hayward had the final CHA offer in hand, then went to Ainge and said: "I'll take a year and $45MM less (guaranteed) to go IND if you work out a trade", then Ainge was offered Turner and Doug McD and turned it down.

I also doubt Ainge had a deal a) he would have been pleased with, and b) Hayward would have agreed to, if Danny had just acted faster. That suggests CHA was really late to the game with that ludicrous offer.... which I don't buy. They've had interest in Hayward for a long time -- they probably made an initial offer at or before the 6pm deadline Friday.

Lastly, it's totally possible Ainge just didn't want Turner that much. He may have seen Warren or VO has more valuable to the Cs, and / or didn't want to pay Turner and McDermott knowing the Tatum extension was coming, etc. It's very possible he knew he was signing Thompson, and feels he's a better cure for what ails this team. Or he may simple have wished to wait and see what else is out there this year (assuming he in fact pulls a TPE out of Charlotte).

[BitterJim]

I know it’s easy after the fact but why did we have to give away picks to clear the salaries of Kanter and Poirier?
Couldn’t we just attach them to Hayward and get Batum in return? This way we keep dollar’s we paid OKC and keep the 30th pick... we could also get a second rounder out of the hornets for saving them dead $$ on their cap sheet...
I guess my point is that draft night trades are too volatile in terms of value received and Danny hasn’t been the best at those the last 7-8 drafts... also we would have a big expiring to trade for a good player at the deadline
I’m just rambling lol

We didn't give up picks to get rid of either salary. We dumped Poirier with straight cash (which is the least valuable asset in the NBA, I don't know why you're worried about it), and considering that 2 seconds for the #30 pick in a weak draft is pretty fair value, it didn't really take any picks to dump Kanter, either.

As for keeping them and sending them with Hayward, what is that trying to accomplish? It still wouldn't allow us to take in Batum without going above the tax line/apron, it would jus put them on Charlotte's cap sheet instead (and possibly cost us actual assets to do so). Even if we were to add Batum, sending Kanter/Poirier to Charlotte instead of OKC/POR doesn't change anything for us (other than losing the $5 million trade exception we got from the Kanter deal)

[Darth_Yoda]

I wouldn't expect a TPE out this. Charlotte really has no good reason to unless Danny is willing to give them something. Danny is too cheap for that, though.

They do actually.

Danny helped Charlotte out a ton last year by doing a sign and trade with Kemba, allowing them to get Rozier.

It is EXACTLY the same thing essentially.

Jordan will do the TPE back, I will be shocked if he doesnt.

[hpantazo]

I wouldn't expect a TPE out this. Charlotte really has no good reason to unless Danny is willing to give them something. Danny is too cheap for that, though.

They do actually.

Danny helped Charlotte out a ton last year by doing a sign and trade with Kemba, allowing them to get Rozier.

It is EXACTLY the same thing essentially.

Jordan will do the TPE back, I will be shocked if he doesnt.

If nothing else, it's just good business to not p--- off your fellow GMs for no good reason, as you will have to work with them for future trades.

[mmmmm]

I wouldn't expect a TPE out this. Charlotte really has no good reason to unless Danny is willing to give them something. Danny is too cheap for that, though.

They do actually.

Danny helped Charlotte out a ton last year by doing a sign and trade with Kemba, allowing them to get Rozier.

It is EXACTLY the same thing essentially.

Jordan will do the TPE back, I will be shocked if he doesnt.

If nothing else, it's just good business to not p--- off your fellow GMs for no good reason, as you will have to work with them for future trades.

And it is basically an absolute freebie way for CHA to gain an assett.  It costs them nothing to execute the signing as a sign & trade and they gain whatever asset Danny sends to them for doing so.

No reason for CHA to not do this.

[NKY fan]

I wouldn't expect a TPE out this. Charlotte really has no good reason to unless Danny is willing to give them something. Danny is too cheap for that, though.

They do actually.

Danny helped Charlotte out a ton last year by doing a sign and trade with Kemba, allowing them to get Rozier.

It is EXACTLY the same thing essentially.

Jordan will do the TPE back, I will be shocked if he doesnt.

If nothing else, it's just good business to not p--- off your fellow GMs for no good reason, as you will have to work with them for future trades.

Danny refused to do a sign and trade with Utah 3 years ago when Hayward signed with us. I think they wanted Crowder back so we could have kept Kelly or Bradley but he refused.
Last year Danny wouldn’t do the sign and trade with Charlotte until they agreed to give us that second round pick swap to us..... I think both Charlotte and Utah weren’t very pleased with Danny at the time

[hpantazo]

I wouldn't expect a TPE out this. Charlotte really has no good reason to unless Danny is willing to give them something. Danny is too cheap for that, though.

They do actually.

Danny helped Charlotte out a ton last year by doing a sign and trade with Kemba, allowing them to get Rozier.

It is EXACTLY the same thing essentially.

Jordan will do the TPE back, I will be shocked if he doesnt.

If nothing else, it's just good business to not p--- off your fellow GMs for no good reason, as you will have to work with them for future trades.

Danny refused to do a sign and trade with Utah 3 years ago when Hayward signed with us. I think they wanted Crowder back so we could have kept Kelly or Bradley but he refused.
Last year Danny wouldn’t do the sign and trade with Charlotte until they agreed to give us that second round pick swap to us..... I think both Charlotte and Utah weren’t very pleased with Danny at the time

If he had given them Crowder in that deal, then Crowder may have not ended up causing Hayward's freak ankle injury.

[dannyboy35]

  Hi, guys. Enjoying the discussion. It’s informative. Can you give some of us that don’t understand all this an idea of what this could mean?
   I’m reading the best case (but possible) scenario is having 28 mil to spend? Is this true as the best case? My next question would be could we afford this player beyond this year ,if it is that expensive of a player? I realize there may be a ton of variables but I thought I’d try to ask anyways. Thanks!
 
 

[Roy H.]

I wouldn't expect a TPE out this. Charlotte really has no good reason to unless Danny is willing to give them something. Danny is too cheap for that, though.

They do actually.

Danny helped Charlotte out a ton last year by doing a sign and trade with Kemba, allowing them to get Rozier.

It is EXACTLY the same thing essentially.

Jordan will do the TPE back, I will be shocked if he doesnt.

If nothing else, it's just good business to not p--- off your fellow GMs for no good reason, as you will have to work with them for future trades.

Danny refused to do a sign and trade with Utah 3 years ago when Hayward signed with us. I think they wanted Crowder back so we could have kept Kelly or Bradley but he refused.
Last year Danny wouldn’t do the sign and trade with Charlotte until they agreed to give us that second round pick swap to us..... I think both Charlotte and Utah weren’t very pleased with Danny at the time

Where did you hear Charlotte wasn’t pleased with us?  We gave them an asset for about the smallest return possible?

And do you have a link to the Utah stuff?  Why would we randomly give them Crowder for free?

[NKY fan]

I wouldn't expect a TPE out this. Charlotte really has no good reason to unless Danny is willing to give them something. Danny is too cheap for that, though.

They do actually.

Danny helped Charlotte out a ton last year by doing a sign and trade with Kemba, allowing them to get Rozier.

It is EXACTLY the same thing essentially.

Jordan will do the TPE back, I will be shocked if he doesnt.

If nothing else, it's just good business to not p--- off your fellow GMs for no good reason, as you will have to work with them for future trades.

Danny refused to do a sign and trade with Utah 3 years ago when Hayward signed with us. I think they wanted Crowder back so we could have kept Kelly or Bradley but he refused.
Last year Danny wouldn’t do the sign and trade with Charlotte until they agreed to give us that second round pick swap to us..... I think both Charlotte and Utah weren’t very pleased with Danny at the time

Where did you hear Charlotte wasn’t pleased with us?  We gave them an asset for about the smallest return possible?

And do you have a link to the Utah stuff?  Why would we randomly give them Crowder for free?

Jazz talks 2017:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbssports.com/nba/news/report-celtics-jazz-engaged-in-sign-and-trade-talks-involving-hayward-crowder/amp/

Hornets talks I can’t find a link but the sign and trade didn’t get official until the pick swap came out way... like it didn’t happen first thing when free agency started it took a week or so

[Darth_Yoda]

Think Charlotte might have Eyes for Horford as well?

I can see OKC moving him as they are in full cap shedding/pick acquisition.

Also Knicks really wanted Scary Terry, perhaps a deal can be made to save Jordan from having to waive Batum (saving him money) and getting him Al Horford to man the middle.

Rozier to NYK
Zeller and Boston 1st to OKC
Horford and Hayward to Charlotte
Large TPE to Boston

Who says no?
NYK upgrades
OKC saves money and adds a pick (its what they do)
Charlotte makes playoffs
Boston gets their TPE


Or just
Hayward to Charlotte
Zeller to Sacramento
Barnes to Boston