Author Topic: Celticsstrong 2021 Historical Draft - VOTES ARE IN  (Read 34261 times)

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Re: Celticsstrong 2021 Historical Draft
« Reply #540 on: December 01, 2020, 05:36:34 PM »

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So with the last the pick of the 2nd round, the Chicago Bulls are going to select Shawn Kemp.

SF: Julius Erving
PF: Shawn Kemp
That forward combination is going to terrorise teams on the fast break.

Yeah, that was my plan - to build a fastbreaking team. I badly underestimated Gervin's stock and thought he would be available so I was hoping to take Gervin here and Kemp with the 1st pick of the 3rd round tomorrow. Get a quick footed PG and build a transition based team around them. That would've been a cool team. Fun to watch.

Goal was to be competitive enough in the halfcourt offense to win in the open court with those 3 major finishers. I wanted a team that would create a lot of turnovers to fuel that transition game. Probably not the best defensive FG% type team more of a risky force turnovers type defensive team.

Anyways, that plan may be gone now. I think it's gone. Not sure. In the process of changing somehow. Not sure how yet.

New plan -- whenever I figure that out, likely end of 4th round when I see who the BPA are rather than now -- will still have a lot of transition stuff in it but not as much. That is what I am thinking. Probably more halfcourt stuff instead. Or I could defensive minded rather than offensive minded ... hmm, we'll see.

Re: Celticsstrong 2021 Historical Draft
« Reply #541 on: December 01, 2020, 06:03:11 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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Here are my power rankings thus far. I'm not including the Bucks and the Rockets. The Kawhi-Butler deal was a risky move for both teams. It's way too early to tell how things will pan out.

Tier 1
  • Phoenix: Giannis, Reggie Miller
    I believe Giannis is the best player in the draft. Absolutely love the fit of Reggie next to him.

Tier 2 (in random order)
  • Memphis: Kobe, Artis Gilmore
    Kobe won all 5 of his championships while playing alongside a dominant big man. Gilmore is one of the best big men in this draft.
  • Washington: Stockton, Klay
    Super solid backcourt duo. Easy to build around them as well. Both of them are 2-way players and great shooters. If I were the Wizards, I would be looking for a go-to scorer. Stockton had pass-first mentality. Klay is an off-ball specialist.
  • Toronto: Karl Malone, Tiny
    Plenty of star power for the Raps. Malone is arguably the 2nd best PF in the draft (if not the best). I guess the consensus is that Tiny ranks 3rd among PGs.
  • Sacramento: Moses, Alex English
    Very interesting fit, imo. Both Moses and English were at their best when playing at a fast pace. Moses was undersized at the 5, hence he was quicker/more explosive than his opponents. English spearheaded the fastest-paced team to ever make the playoffs. The 1983-84 Nuggets had a true pace of 9.0, which means they used 9% more possessions than the league average! If I were the Kings, I'd be looking for a speedy PG who can push the tempo for English+Moses. Someone who can explode on the open court!
    I also think the Kings need a couple of shooters. Moses and English were amazing scorers, but they weren't shooters. Lots of good shooters left in the draft though.
  • Chicago: Dr J, Kemp
    Two of the best in-game dunkers of all time. Chicago would be a fun team to watch, no doubt about that! Again, I'd be looking for a speedy PG who can push the tempo for Erving+Kemp. I'd also be looking for a mobile big man and some shooters.

Tier 3 (in random order)
  • San Antonio: Drexler-Gervin
    Two amazing scorers. Both of them were elite slashers. Unfortunately, neither of them was a good shooter. Imo, the Spurs need to surround their slashers with shooters.
  • Indy: Nash, Marc Gasol
    Don't love the fit of Marc Gasol and Nash tbh. Imo, Nash was at his best when running an uptempo offense. Gasol is at his best when playing in the half court. Personally speaking, I would have opted for a mobile big man. But that's just me.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 06:49:52 PM by Jvalin »

Re: Celticsstrong 2021 Historical Draft
« Reply #542 on: December 01, 2020, 07:34:32 PM »

Offline Darth_Yoda

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Here are my power rankings thus far. I'm not including the Bucks and the Rockets. The Kawhi-Butler deal was a risky move for both teams. It's way too early to tell how things will pan out.

Tier 1
  • Phoenix: Giannis, Reggie Miller
    I believe Giannis is the best player in the draft. Absolutely love the fit of Reggie next to him.

Tier 2 (in random order)
  • Memphis: Kobe, Artis Gilmore
    Kobe won all 5 of his championships while playing alongside a dominant big man. Gilmore is one of the best big men in this draft.
  • Washington: Stockton, Klay
    Super solid backcourt duo. Easy to build around them as well. Both of them are 2-way players and great shooters. If I were the Wizards, I would be looking for a go-to scorer. Stockton had pass-first mentality. Klay is an off-ball specialist.
  • Toronto: Karl Malone, Tiny
    Plenty of star power for the Raps. Malone is arguably the 2nd best PF in the draft (if not the best). I guess the consensus is that Tiny ranks 3rd among PGs.
  • Sacramento: Moses, Alex English
    Very interesting fit, imo. Both Moses and English were at their best when playing at a fast pace. Moses was undersized at the 5, hence he was quicker/more explosive than his opponents. English spearheaded the fastest-paced team to ever make the playoffs. The 1983-84 Nuggets had a true pace of 9.0, which means they used 9% more possessions than the league average! If I were the Kings, I'd be looking for a speedy PG who can push the tempo for English+Moses. Someone who can explode on the open court!
    I also think the Kings need a couple of shooters. Moses and English were amazing scorers, but they weren't shooters. Lots of good shooters left in the draft though.
  • Chicago: Dr J, Kemp
    Two of the best in-game dunkers of all time. Chicago would be a fun team to watch, no doubt about that! Again, I'd be looking for a speedy PG who can push the tempo for Erving+Kemp. I'd also be looking for a mobile big man and some shooters.

Tier 3 (in random order)
  • San Antonio: Drexler-Gervin
    Two amazing scorers. Both of them were elite slashers. Unfortunately, neither of them was a good shooter. Imo, the Spurs need to surround their slashers with shooters.
  • Indy: Nash, Marc Gasol
    Don't love the fit of Marc Gasol and Nash tbh. Imo, Nash was at his best when running an uptempo offense. Gasol is at his best when playing in the half court. Personally speaking, I would have opted for a mobile big man. But that's just me.



i appreciate your feedback but Gervin was an excellent shooter who would excell in todays game.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/533759-nothing-but-netranking-the-greatest-shooters-in-the-nba-history


One of the best offensive players to step on the NBA hardwood, George Gervin was additionally one of the finest shooters to ever grace the game of basketball.

He could sink a variety of difficulty shots from anywhere. He was heavily defended, as there was usually a double team, even sometimes a triple team, waiting to stop him. That was impossible, as he had his own style, which was to put consistent effort in.

He was so effective with his shot, recognized by Dr. J, who gave him the nickname "Iceman." Yes, he was nailing them, and he put defenders in a position to hope that he'd get tired and miss. That never happened. During one season in which he led in scoring at 29.6 points per game, he did so on 54 percent shooting from the field.



https://www.nba.com/history/legends/profiles/george-gervin

To fully appreciate the greatness of “the Iceman” one had to see him rise up for a silky-smooth jump shot from 25 feet, twirl a heavenly finger roll while soaring through the lane, execute a graceful reverse layup with either hand or explode for a sneaky power dunk between a pair of 7-foot defenders.

Drexler shot 33Q% over his final 8 seasons from 3 point range.  a couple of seasons he shot 36% from 3 on 5.4. last season trae young shot 36% from 3.

I wouldn't say they aren't good shooters. they could shoot well.
'21 Historical Draft
PG: Kyle Lowry / Mookie Blaylock / Mark Jackson
SG: Reggie Miller / Jeff Hornacek / Nick Anderson
SF: George Gervin / George McGinnis / Kyle Korver
PF: Connie Hawkins / Serge Ibaka / Josh Smith
C: Clint Capela / Bill Laimbeer / Jusuf Nurkic

Re: Celticsstrong 2021 Historical Draft
« Reply #543 on: December 01, 2020, 07:49:40 PM »

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The Tiny & K-Malone duo stands out to me. Excited to see where that goes next.

Re: Celticsstrong 2021 Historical Draft
« Reply #544 on: December 01, 2020, 08:28:24 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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Here are my power rankings thus far. I'm not including the Bucks and the Rockets. The Kawhi-Butler deal was a risky move for both teams. It's way too early to tell how things will pan out.

Tier 1
  • Phoenix: Giannis, Reggie Miller
    I believe Giannis is the best player in the draft. Absolutely love the fit of Reggie next to him.

Tier 2 (in random order)
  • Memphis: Kobe, Artis Gilmore
    Kobe won all 5 of his championships while playing alongside a dominant big man. Gilmore is one of the best big men in this draft.
  • Washington: Stockton, Klay
    Super solid backcourt duo. Easy to build around them as well. Both of them are 2-way players and great shooters. If I were the Wizards, I would be looking for a go-to scorer. Stockton had pass-first mentality. Klay is an off-ball specialist.
  • Toronto: Karl Malone, Tiny
    Plenty of star power for the Raps. Malone is arguably the 2nd best PF in the draft (if not the best). I guess the consensus is that Tiny ranks 3rd among PGs.
  • Sacramento: Moses, Alex English
    Very interesting fit, imo. Both Moses and English were at their best when playing at a fast pace. Moses was undersized at the 5, hence he was quicker/more explosive than his opponents. English spearheaded the fastest-paced team to ever make the playoffs. The 1983-84 Nuggets had a true pace of 9.0, which means they used 9% more possessions than the league average! If I were the Kings, I'd be looking for a speedy PG who can push the tempo for English+Moses. Someone who can explode on the open court!
    I also think the Kings need a couple of shooters. Moses and English were amazing scorers, but they weren't shooters. Lots of good shooters left in the draft though.
  • Chicago: Dr J, Kemp
    Two of the best in-game dunkers of all time. Chicago would be a fun team to watch, no doubt about that! Again, I'd be looking for a speedy PG who can push the tempo for Erving+Kemp. I'd also be looking for a mobile big man and some shooters.

Tier 3 (in random order)
  • San Antonio: Drexler-Gervin
    Two amazing scorers. Both of them were elite slashers. Unfortunately, neither of them was a good shooter. Imo, the Spurs need to surround their slashers with shooters.
  • Indy: Nash, Marc Gasol
    Don't love the fit of Marc Gasol and Nash tbh. Imo, Nash was at his best when running an uptempo offense. Gasol is at his best when playing in the half court. Personally speaking, I would have opted for a mobile big man. But that's just me.



i appreciate your feedback but Gervin was an excellent shooter who would excell in todays game.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/533759-nothing-but-netranking-the-greatest-shooters-in-the-nba-history


One of the best offensive players to step on the NBA hardwood, George Gervin was additionally one of the finest shooters to ever grace the game of basketball.

He could sink a variety of difficulty shots from anywhere. He was heavily defended, as there was usually a double team, even sometimes a triple team, waiting to stop him. That was impossible, as he had his own style, which was to put consistent effort in.

He was so effective with his shot, recognized by Dr. J, who gave him the nickname "Iceman." Yes, he was nailing them, and he put defenders in a position to hope that he'd get tired and miss. That never happened. During one season in which he led in scoring at 29.6 points per game, he did so on 54 percent shooting from the field.



https://www.nba.com/history/legends/profiles/george-gervin

To fully appreciate the greatness of “the Iceman” one had to see him rise up for a silky-smooth jump shot from 25 feet, twirl a heavenly finger roll while soaring through the lane, execute a graceful reverse layup with either hand or explode for a sneaky power dunk between a pair of 7-foot defenders.

Drexler shot 33Q% over his final 8 seasons from 3 point range.  a couple of seasons he shot 36% from 3 on 5.4. last season trae young shot 36% from 3.

I wouldn't say they aren't good shooters. they could shoot well.
For the record, I've only watched him play in youtube videos. I've read some stuff about him online. I also watched a long interview about a month ago where he was talking about his game (among other things). From what I know, he had a silky smooth finger roll. In fact, he was the one who made the finger roll famous. Sure, he was very efficient, but he hardly even took any 3s. His career average was 27.1% from 3 on 0.7 attempts per game. I guess he must have been a good mid range shooter. I mean, his FT% certainly suggests that he had potential as a shooter.

Would he be shooting more 3s in today's game? For sure.
Would he be an accurate 3pt shooter? Hard to say. No one can really know.

According to the advanced stats, he was also a below average defender+passer.

Career averages
Defensive Box Plus/Minus: -0.8
AST%: 12.2
TOV%: 11.7

Don't get me wrong, both Gervin and Drexler were amazing scorers. Unlike Gervin, Drexler was also a very good defender. Imo, what holds you back the most is the lack of an elite-level talent. As good as Gervin was, he never led his team to the NBA Finals. Drexler wasn't good enough to be the go-to guy on a championship team either. He won a championship in Houston, but he was playing second fiddle to Dream. At the end of the day, winning matters.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 08:50:39 PM by Jvalin »

Re: Celticsstrong 2021 Historical Draft
« Reply #545 on: December 01, 2020, 09:10:11 PM »

Offline Darth_Yoda

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Here are my power rankings thus far. I'm not including the Bucks and the Rockets. The Kawhi-Butler deal was a risky move for both teams. It's way too early to tell how things will pan out.

Tier 1
  • Phoenix: Giannis, Reggie Miller
    I believe Giannis is the best player in the draft. Absolutely love the fit of Reggie next to him.

Tier 2 (in random order)
  • Memphis: Kobe, Artis Gilmore
    Kobe won all 5 of his championships while playing alongside a dominant big man. Gilmore is one of the best big men in this draft.
  • Washington: Stockton, Klay
    Super solid backcourt duo. Easy to build around them as well. Both of them are 2-way players and great shooters. If I were the Wizards, I would be looking for a go-to scorer. Stockton had pass-first mentality. Klay is an off-ball specialist.
  • Toronto: Karl Malone, Tiny
    Plenty of star power for the Raps. Malone is arguably the 2nd best PF in the draft (if not the best). I guess the consensus is that Tiny ranks 3rd among PGs.
  • Sacramento: Moses, Alex English
    Very interesting fit, imo. Both Moses and English were at their best when playing at a fast pace. Moses was undersized at the 5, hence he was quicker/more explosive than his opponents. English spearheaded the fastest-paced team to ever make the playoffs. The 1983-84 Nuggets had a true pace of 9.0, which means they used 9% more possessions than the league average! If I were the Kings, I'd be looking for a speedy PG who can push the tempo for English+Moses. Someone who can explode on the open court!
    I also think the Kings need a couple of shooters. Moses and English were amazing scorers, but they weren't shooters. Lots of good shooters left in the draft though.
  • Chicago: Dr J, Kemp
    Two of the best in-game dunkers of all time. Chicago would be a fun team to watch, no doubt about that! Again, I'd be looking for a speedy PG who can push the tempo for Erving+Kemp. I'd also be looking for a mobile big man and some shooters.

Tier 3 (in random order)
  • San Antonio: Drexler-Gervin
    Two amazing scorers. Both of them were elite slashers. Unfortunately, neither of them was a good shooter. Imo, the Spurs need to surround their slashers with shooters.
  • Indy: Nash, Marc Gasol
    Don't love the fit of Marc Gasol and Nash tbh. Imo, Nash was at his best when running an uptempo offense. Gasol is at his best when playing in the half court. Personally speaking, I would have opted for a mobile big man. But that's just me.



i appreciate your feedback but Gervin was an excellent shooter who would excell in todays game.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/533759-nothing-but-netranking-the-greatest-shooters-in-the-nba-history


One of the best offensive players to step on the NBA hardwood, George Gervin was additionally one of the finest shooters to ever grace the game of basketball.

He could sink a variety of difficulty shots from anywhere. He was heavily defended, as there was usually a double team, even sometimes a triple team, waiting to stop him. That was impossible, as he had his own style, which was to put consistent effort in.

He was so effective with his shot, recognized by Dr. J, who gave him the nickname "Iceman." Yes, he was nailing them, and he put defenders in a position to hope that he'd get tired and miss. That never happened. During one season in which he led in scoring at 29.6 points per game, he did so on 54 percent shooting from the field.



https://www.nba.com/history/legends/profiles/george-gervin

To fully appreciate the greatness of “the Iceman” one had to see him rise up for a silky-smooth jump shot from 25 feet, twirl a heavenly finger roll while soaring through the lane, execute a graceful reverse layup with either hand or explode for a sneaky power dunk between a pair of 7-foot defenders.

Drexler shot 33Q% over his final 8 seasons from 3 point range.  a couple of seasons he shot 36% from 3 on 5.4. last season trae young shot 36% from 3.

I wouldn't say they aren't good shooters. they could shoot well.
For the record, I've only watched him play in youtube videos. I've read some stuff about him online. I also watched a long interview about a month ago where he was talking about his game (among other things). From what I know, he had a silky smooth finger roll. In fact, he was the one who made the finger roll famous. Sure, he was very efficient, but he hardly even took any 3s. His career average was 27.1% from 3 on 0.7 attempts per game. I guess he must have been a good mid range shooter. I mean, his FT% certainly suggests that he had potential as a shooter.

Would he be shooting more 3s in today's game? For sure.
Would he be an accurate 3pt shooter? Hard to say. No one can really know.

According to the advanced stats, he was also a below average defender+passer.

Career averages
Defensive Box Plus/Minus: -0.8
AST%: 12.2
TOV%: 11.7

Don't get me wrong, both Gervin and Drexler were amazing scorers. Unlike Gervin, Drexler was also a very good defender. Imo, what holds you back the most is the lack of an elite-level talent. As good as Gervin was, he never led his team to the NBA Finals. Drexler wasn't good enough to be the go-to guy on a championship team either. He won a championship in Houston, but he was playing second fiddle to Dream. At the end of the day, winning matters.

George definately took plays off on the defensive end.

Lol
'21 Historical Draft
PG: Kyle Lowry / Mookie Blaylock / Mark Jackson
SG: Reggie Miller / Jeff Hornacek / Nick Anderson
SF: George Gervin / George McGinnis / Kyle Korver
PF: Connie Hawkins / Serge Ibaka / Josh Smith
C: Clint Capela / Bill Laimbeer / Jusuf Nurkic

Re: Celticsstrong 2021 Historical Draft
« Reply #546 on: December 01, 2020, 09:51:29 PM »

Offline Moranis

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The Tiny & K-Malone duo stands out to me. Excited to see where that goes next.
I have a couple of ideas.  Hoping the guy I want falls, but if not I have a few back-ups.  I might be flying around willy nilly last minute if my top few guys all go.
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: Celticsstrong 2021 Historical Draft
« Reply #547 on: December 01, 2020, 09:51:44 PM »

Offline RPGenerate

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Here are my power rankings thus far. I'm not including the Bucks and the Rockets. The Kawhi-Butler deal was a risky move for both teams. It's way too early to tell how things will pan out.

Tier 1
  • Phoenix: Giannis, Reggie Miller
    I believe Giannis is the best player in the draft. Absolutely love the fit of Reggie next to him.

Tier 2 (in random order)
  • Memphis: Kobe, Artis Gilmore
    Kobe won all 5 of his championships while playing alongside a dominant big man. Gilmore is one of the best big men in this draft.
  • Washington: Stockton, Klay
    Super solid backcourt duo. Easy to build around them as well. Both of them are 2-way players and great shooters. If I were the Wizards, I would be looking for a go-to scorer. Stockton had pass-first mentality. Klay is an off-ball specialist.
  • Toronto: Karl Malone, Tiny
    Plenty of star power for the Raps. Malone is arguably the 2nd best PF in the draft (if not the best). I guess the consensus is that Tiny ranks 3rd among PGs.
  • Sacramento: Moses, Alex English
    Very interesting fit, imo. Both Moses and English were at their best when playing at a fast pace. Moses was undersized at the 5, hence he was quicker/more explosive than his opponents. English spearheaded the fastest-paced team to ever make the playoffs. The 1983-84 Nuggets had a true pace of 9.0, which means they used 9% more possessions than the league average! If I were the Kings, I'd be looking for a speedy PG who can push the tempo for English+Moses. Someone who can explode on the open court!
    I also think the Kings need a couple of shooters. Moses and English were amazing scorers, but they weren't shooters. Lots of good shooters left in the draft though.
  • Chicago: Dr J, Kemp
    Two of the best in-game dunkers of all time. Chicago would be a fun team to watch, no doubt about that! Again, I'd be looking for a speedy PG who can push the tempo for Erving+Kemp. I'd also be looking for a mobile big man and some shooters.

Tier 3 (in random order)
  • San Antonio: Drexler-Gervin
    Two amazing scorers. Both of them were elite slashers. Unfortunately, neither of them was a good shooter. Imo, the Spurs need to surround their slashers with shooters.
  • Indy: Nash, Marc Gasol
    Don't love the fit of Marc Gasol and Nash tbh. Imo, Nash was at his best when running an uptempo offense. Gasol is at his best when playing in the half court. Personally speaking, I would have opted for a mobile big man. But that's just me.
tp for the analysis. I love this kind of stuff. It makes drafts much more fun. On my team, I agree on what you said. I think point guards is probably the deepest position in this draft, so I'll have plenty of time to get one that fits my team well.
2020 Celticsstrong No-Top 10 Histrorical Draft:
PG: Tim Hardaway Sr. / Jrue Holiday / Sam Cassell
SG: Joe Dumars / Danny Ainge / Šarūnas Marčiulionis
SF: Alex English / Jamaal Wilkes / Bruce Bowen
PF: Cliff Robinson / Maurice Lucas / Robert Horry
C: Moses Malone / Mehmet Okur / Truck Robinson

Re: Celticsstrong 2021 Historical Draft
« Reply #548 on: December 01, 2020, 10:27:33 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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  • 2021 CelticsStrong Historical Draft Indiana Pacers
Here are my power rankings thus far. I'm not including the Bucks and the Rockets. The Kawhi-Butler deal was a risky move for both teams. It's way too early to tell how things will pan out.

Tier 1
  • Phoenix: Giannis, Reggie Miller
    I believe Giannis is the best player in the draft. Absolutely love the fit of Reggie next to him.

Tier 2 (in random order)
  • Memphis: Kobe, Artis Gilmore
    Kobe won all 5 of his championships while playing alongside a dominant big man. Gilmore is one of the best big men in this draft.
  • Washington: Stockton, Klay
    Super solid backcourt duo. Easy to build around them as well. Both of them are 2-way players and great shooters. If I were the Wizards, I would be looking for a go-to scorer. Stockton had pass-first mentality. Klay is an off-ball specialist.
  • Toronto: Karl Malone, Tiny
    Plenty of star power for the Raps. Malone is arguably the 2nd best PF in the draft (if not the best). I guess the consensus is that Tiny ranks 3rd among PGs.
  • Sacramento: Moses, Alex English
    Very interesting fit, imo. Both Moses and English were at their best when playing at a fast pace. Moses was undersized at the 5, hence he was quicker/more explosive than his opponents. English spearheaded the fastest-paced team to ever make the playoffs. The 1983-84 Nuggets had a true pace of 9.0, which means they used 9% more possessions than the league average! If I were the Kings, I'd be looking for a speedy PG who can push the tempo for English+Moses. Someone who can explode on the open court!
    I also think the Kings need a couple of shooters. Moses and English were amazing scorers, but they weren't shooters. Lots of good shooters left in the draft though.
  • Chicago: Dr J, Kemp
    Two of the best in-game dunkers of all time. Chicago would be a fun team to watch, no doubt about that! Again, I'd be looking for a speedy PG who can push the tempo for Erving+Kemp. I'd also be looking for a mobile big man and some shooters.

Tier 3 (in random order)
  • San Antonio: Drexler-Gervin
    Two amazing scorers. Both of them were elite slashers. Unfortunately, neither of them was a good shooter. Imo, the Spurs need to surround their slashers with shooters.
  • Indy: Nash, Marc Gasol
    Don't love the fit of Marc Gasol and Nash tbh. Imo, Nash was at his best when running an uptempo offense. Gasol is at his best when playing in the half court. Personally speaking, I would have opted for a mobile big man. But that's just me.

I believe Nash plays well with ANY center - especially one as well-rounded as Marc.

I thought long and hard about going with a defensive Center (several in this draft) but in "THIS" Historical draft setting it would've been quite limiting to ME to have a Center that - while great defensively - may not have been a decent passer or was just a lob threat.
2021 CelticsStrong Historical Draft Indiana Pacers:
C- Marc Gasol(16-17)Jeff Ruland(83-84)Theo Ratliff(00-01)
PF- Dan Roundfield(79-80)Paul Milsap(14-15)Dino Radja(95-96)
SF- Dan Marjerle(92-93)Rashard Lewis(08-09)Jalen Rose(99-00)
SG- Reggie Lewis(91-92)World B. Free(78-79)Dell Curry(93-94)
PG- Steve Nash(05-06)Fat Lever(87-88)Tony Allen(12-13)

Re: Celticsstrong 2021 Historical Draft
« Reply #549 on: December 01, 2020, 10:42:44 PM »

Offline Moranis

  • Kevin McHale
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Here are my power rankings thus far. I'm not including the Bucks and the Rockets. The Kawhi-Butler deal was a risky move for both teams. It's way too early to tell how things will pan out.

Tier 1
  • Phoenix: Giannis, Reggie Miller
    I believe Giannis is the best player in the draft. Absolutely love the fit of Reggie next to him.

Tier 2 (in random order)
  • Memphis: Kobe, Artis Gilmore
    Kobe won all 5 of his championships while playing alongside a dominant big man. Gilmore is one of the best big men in this draft.
  • Washington: Stockton, Klay
    Super solid backcourt duo. Easy to build around them as well. Both of them are 2-way players and great shooters. If I were the Wizards, I would be looking for a go-to scorer. Stockton had pass-first mentality. Klay is an off-ball specialist.
  • Toronto: Karl Malone, Tiny
    Plenty of star power for the Raps. Malone is arguably the 2nd best PF in the draft (if not the best). I guess the consensus is that Tiny ranks 3rd among PGs.
  • Sacramento: Moses, Alex English
    Very interesting fit, imo. Both Moses and English were at their best when playing at a fast pace. Moses was undersized at the 5, hence he was quicker/more explosive than his opponents. English spearheaded the fastest-paced team to ever make the playoffs. The 1983-84 Nuggets had a true pace of 9.0, which means they used 9% more possessions than the league average! If I were the Kings, I'd be looking for a speedy PG who can push the tempo for English+Moses. Someone who can explode on the open court!
    I also think the Kings need a couple of shooters. Moses and English were amazing scorers, but they weren't shooters. Lots of good shooters left in the draft though.
  • Chicago: Dr J, Kemp
    Two of the best in-game dunkers of all time. Chicago would be a fun team to watch, no doubt about that! Again, I'd be looking for a speedy PG who can push the tempo for Erving+Kemp. I'd also be looking for a mobile big man and some shooters.

Tier 3 (in random order)
  • San Antonio: Drexler-Gervin
    Two amazing scorers. Both of them were elite slashers. Unfortunately, neither of them was a good shooter. Imo, the Spurs need to surround their slashers with shooters.
  • Indy: Nash, Marc Gasol
    Don't love the fit of Marc Gasol and Nash tbh. Imo, Nash was at his best when running an uptempo offense. Gasol is at his best when playing in the half court. Personally speaking, I would have opted for a mobile big man. But that's just me.

I believe Nash plays well with ANY center - especially one as well-rounded as Marc.

I thought long and hard about going with a defensive Center (several in this draft) but in "THIS" Historical draft setting it would've been quite limiting to ME to have a Center that - while great defensively - may not have been a decent passer or was just a lob threat.
I don't think that was his critique, I think it was the physical type of center Gasol is that he was taking issue with.  Nash found his greatest success playing with an uber athletic freak in Amare at center.  A guy that could run up and down the floor all day with Nash.  It isn't that Gasol is not a great player, more that he is a more traditional big man i.e. slower, more deliberate, etc.  Even in his younger years, he was never an athletic specimen.  His brother was more athletic than he was, but even he wasn't an athlete.  Obviously Amare isn't available in this, but I think someone like Kemp (albeit a PF) would have been fantastic playing with Nash.  That was a guy that could just run all day in that 2 or 3 year period in Seattle before his demons got the better of him.  I mean you look at those Suns teams, Amare, Marion, and Johnson were all great athletes and Johnson was also an elite shooter.  That I think is where Gasol can help if you use his later seasons, but doing that you lose even more of the speed and athleticism you may want to really unlock Nash's potential.  I wanted to pair Gasol with Malone, so it isn't a knock on Gasol, I just think he wasn't a great fit with Nash which also seems to be JV's analysis as well.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 10:48:50 PM by Moranis »
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: Celticsstrong 2021 Historical Draft
« Reply #550 on: December 01, 2020, 10:51:37 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Here are my power rankings thus far. I'm not including the Bucks and the Rockets. The Kawhi-Butler deal was a risky move for both teams. It's way too early to tell how things will pan out.

Tier 1
  • Phoenix: Giannis, Reggie Miller
    I believe Giannis is the best player in the draft. Absolutely love the fit of Reggie next to him.

Tier 2 (in random order)
  • Memphis: Kobe, Artis Gilmore
    Kobe won all 5 of his championships while playing alongside a dominant big man. Gilmore is one of the best big men in this draft.
  • Washington: Stockton, Klay
    Super solid backcourt duo. Easy to build around them as well. Both of them are 2-way players and great shooters. If I were the Wizards, I would be looking for a go-to scorer. Stockton had pass-first mentality. Klay is an off-ball specialist.
  • Toronto: Karl Malone, Tiny
    Plenty of star power for the Raps. Malone is arguably the 2nd best PF in the draft (if not the best). I guess the consensus is that Tiny ranks 3rd among PGs.
  • Sacramento: Moses, Alex English
    Very interesting fit, imo. Both Moses and English were at their best when playing at a fast pace. Moses was undersized at the 5, hence he was quicker/more explosive than his opponents. English spearheaded the fastest-paced team to ever make the playoffs. The 1983-84 Nuggets had a true pace of 9.0, which means they used 9% more possessions than the league average! If I were the Kings, I'd be looking for a speedy PG who can push the tempo for English+Moses. Someone who can explode on the open court!
    I also think the Kings need a couple of shooters. Moses and English were amazing scorers, but they weren't shooters. Lots of good shooters left in the draft though.
  • Chicago: Dr J, Kemp
    Two of the best in-game dunkers of all time. Chicago would be a fun team to watch, no doubt about that! Again, I'd be looking for a speedy PG who can push the tempo for Erving+Kemp. I'd also be looking for a mobile big man and some shooters.

Tier 3 (in random order)
  • San Antonio: Drexler-Gervin
    Two amazing scorers. Both of them were elite slashers. Unfortunately, neither of them was a good shooter. Imo, the Spurs need to surround their slashers with shooters.
  • Indy: Nash, Marc Gasol
    Don't love the fit of Marc Gasol and Nash tbh. Imo, Nash was at his best when running an uptempo offense. Gasol is at his best when playing in the half court. Personally speaking, I would have opted for a mobile big man. But that's just me.

I believe Nash plays well with ANY center - especially one as well-rounded as Marc.

I thought long and hard about going with a defensive Center (several in this draft) but in "THIS" Historical draft setting it would've been quite limiting to ME to have a Center that - while great defensively - may not have been a decent passer or was just a lob threat.
I don't think that was his critique, I think it was the physical type of center Gasol is that he was taking issue with.  Nash found his greatest success playing with an uber athletic freak in Amare at center.  A guy that could run up and down the floor all day with Nash.  It isn't that Gasol is offensive oriented it is more that is a more traditional big man i.e. slower, more deliberate, etc.  Even in his younger years, he was never an athletic specimen.  His brother was more athletic than he was, but even he wasn't an athlete.  Obviously Amare isn't available in this, but I think someone like Kemp (albeit a PF) would have been fantastic playing with Nash.  That was a guy that could just run all day in that 2 or 3 year period in Seattle before his demons got the better of him.  I mean you look at those Suns teams, Amare, Marion, and Johnson were all great athletes and Johnson was also an elite shooter.  That I think is where Gasol can help if you use his later seasons, but doing that you lose even more of the speed and athleticism you may want to really unlock Nash's potential.  I wanted to pair Gasol with Malone, so it isn't a knock on Gasol, I just think he wasn't a great fit with Nash which also seems to be JV's analysis as well.

I appreciate the input but don't agree with it - especially since we don't have full rosters yet.

Additionally - those run and gun Suns teams never made it out of the West - because they didn't have a decent Center.

Those teams were fun, yes - but lacking in defense and enough size to counter LAL's back in the mid 2000's.

In THIS setting for ME it would've been limiting to draft a Big that would not have several dimensions to him.

"Running and Gunning" will only get you so far.

EDIT - Those Mid-2000 Suns teams lost in the playoffs to the Spurs three times and DAL once.

Their bigs were a past his prime Brian Grant, Steven Hunter,  Jake Voskuhl and Pat Burke.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 11:26:47 PM by GreenFaith1819 »
2021 CelticsStrong Historical Draft Indiana Pacers:
C- Marc Gasol(16-17)Jeff Ruland(83-84)Theo Ratliff(00-01)
PF- Dan Roundfield(79-80)Paul Milsap(14-15)Dino Radja(95-96)
SF- Dan Marjerle(92-93)Rashard Lewis(08-09)Jalen Rose(99-00)
SG- Reggie Lewis(91-92)World B. Free(78-79)Dell Curry(93-94)
PG- Steve Nash(05-06)Fat Lever(87-88)Tony Allen(12-13)

Re: Celticsstrong 2021 Historical Draft
« Reply #551 on: December 01, 2020, 11:32:00 PM »

Online Somebody

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I actually don't think it matters much for Nash. The offences he led in Dallas and Phoenix were certainly at their best when they played small, but those were transcendent offences: every small ball team he played on during his prime from '01 to '10 crossed the +7 rORTG mark (save '08, but they brought in Shaq at the trade deadline), for perspective Magic Johnson's Lakers only did that once in '87 (they didn't go small, but their team had a cheat code in an ageless Jabbar). With that being said, those defences were mostly below average. But it was with balanced teams where Nash had some of his best results:

Quote
That Mavericks four-year run of offense was the best in NBA history, averaging +7 efficiency during the stretch. The second best stretch? Nash’s Suns, from 2005 to 2008. His decade of offensive wizardry on two offense-first teams meant he played on the best offenses in NBA history through his career and a mind-boggling six of the 15 best “healthy” offenses ever. These attacks weren’t regular season frauds, either. The best four-year stretch for a playoff offense is held by Nash’s Suns, who were +10.7 in 51 playoff games between 2005 and 2008 (and his Dallas teams were in the top-10 too). Most importantly, all of this happened with  lineups shifting around him:

His coach during that stretch, Mike D’Antoni, is known for his point-guard friendly system, and a number of his lead guards manufactured career years under him, although the effect is quite small. D’Antoni’s Suns also skewed their lineups, sacrificing defense for offense by playing four wings alongside a power forward at center (Amare Stoudemire). But some of Nash’s most impressive team results were produced with traditional lineups.

In 2006, the Suns brought in Kurt Thomas to provide some muscle at center. In 50 games with Thomas, Phoenix was 3.6 points better than average on offense…and 3.4 points better on defense (6.6 SRS or 59-win pace). Nash guided Phoenix to a top-15 percent offense with a rotation of spot-up shooters (Raja Bell, James Jones and Eddie House) alongside Shawn Marion — who couldn’t create his own offense — a scorer who could also hit spot-up 3s (Leandro Barbosa) and a versatile post player (Boris Diaw). This echoed what happened in Dallas in 2001, when the Nash-Nowitzki-****** trio paired with a traditional defensive center, Shawn Bradley, and crushed opponents by a league-best 17 points per 100.

As slow and deliberate Marc Gasol is, I'm pretty sure that he'll have a larger impact than the likes of Kurt Thomas and Shawn Bradley offensively :laugh:. GreenFaith definitely won't be getting a young Dirk in this draft, but he can work around it by drafting two way wings who're better than the player I censored.
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Re: Celticsstrong 2021 Historical Draft
« Reply #552 on: December 01, 2020, 11:52:18 PM »

Offline Moranis

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To be fair, Amare was injured and didn't play against Dallas and the following year was the highly controversial Spurs series when Amare got suspended for leaving the bench and they lost the pivotal game 5 by 3 without him.

They also made the conference finals in 10 and lost to the Lakers because neither Nash nor Richardson could do anything to Kobe who did whatever he wanted whenever he wanted.

Nash was an offensive maestro, but he also really only had true high level success with Amare and Marion as his 5 and 4, so it is hard to really project how he would do with a more traditional big man rotation instead of the advent of small ball the Suns played.  That is where someone like Gasol becomes risky. 
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: Celticsstrong 2021 Historical Draft
« Reply #553 on: December 02, 2020, 12:07:22 AM »

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To be fair, Amare was injured and didn't play against Dallas and the following year was the hUntruighly controversial Spurs series when Amare got suspended for leaving the bench and they lost the pivotal game 5 by 3 without him.

They also made the conference finals in 10 and lost to the Lakers because neither Nash nor Richardson could do anything to Kobe who did whatever he wanted whenever he wanted.

Nash was an offensive maestro, but he also really only had true high level success with Amare and Marion as his 5 and 4, so it is hard to really project how he would do with a more traditional big man rotation instead of the advent of small ball the Suns played.  That is where someone like Gasol becomes risky.
Amare only played 3 regular season games in '06 and the Suns were still a serious title contender with a collection of shooters and defenders around Nash. Btw losing with your second best player out of the game sounds normal to me :laugh:.

Their 2010 conference finals run was pretty impressive tbh, being able to drag a clearly superior Laker team (Gasol and Bynum missed some time in the RS and the Lakers still finished with a better SRS than the Suns) to 6 games with pure offence is a massive compliment to an aging Nash.

You probably missed my entire quote where he had the most success with traditional lineups, but "being only able to have high level success" with a defensive wing who can't create his own shot and an offensively-inclined big who can't defend sounds like the hallmark of a transcendent player to me :laugh:.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2020, 12:29:12 AM by Somebody »
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Re: Celticsstrong 2021 Historical Draft
« Reply #554 on: December 02, 2020, 05:29:59 AM »

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The third round is going to make or break my team :'(
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