Author Topic: Building around Tatum and Brown is a Mistake  (Read 4910 times)

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Re: Building around Tatum and brown is a mistake
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2020, 01:06:50 PM »

Offline wiley

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Didn't Tatum just do some all time playoff numbers considering his age? 

Anyway, my opinion is that this is silly take, not just because Jaylen and Jason are still so young, but because the truth is they DON'T have to win the championship by themselves.  There will be three other starters and a bench helping them along.

Question:  how old was each of the Detroit Piston players that beat Shaq and Kobe in the finals (and then should have won another title but got a little cocky or just didn't have the luck).

Were any of Billups, Hamilton, Prince, Wallace or Sheed still in their 20's?  I'm not going to look it up, but I will venture a guess that none of them were below 29, if even below 30. Maybe Billups was still 28 or so?

In any case, neither Jason nor Jaylen would be traded at their current age and level for any single member of that Detroit team.

Then, look how close Miami just got.  One can argue that without the Dragic injury, and 2 games without Bam, they might have done it.

Would you trade Jason Tatum for any member of that Heat team?  I wouldn't.  Some might consider Jaylen Brown for Bam, but I personally wouldn't do that one either.  Nor would I trade either for Butler.  I agree that there is and has been too much superstar talk surrounding them.  This is not helpful, but they could win a title without being as good Lebron, Giannis or Doncic.  And the fact that the J's are a tandem will only help their cause.

Be patient OP! 

As Jambr380 said, the J's may never win a title with the C's, but it won't be their fault.  People do make the error of thinking titles are easier than they actually are.  Just plug in x and y and you'll have a title.  Nope.  It's never that simple unless you're talking adding a Durant level player to the team that just broke the regular season win record.

okay those pistons were a bit younger than I thought.  Both Wallaces were 30.  Billups 28, Hamilton 26, and Prince 24.  Still, that's a lot of years compared to our foundation in question.

Re: Building around Tatum and brown is a mistake
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2020, 01:08:40 PM »

Offline wiley

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I will tell you right now that this is going to be a pretty unpopular take. Assuming Tatum and Brown have already reached their ceiling is a mistake. Other than Luka, Giannis, and maybe Zion, who else would really be above Tatum on the 'if you were to start a team' conversation? Brown essentially blew up this past season - so much so that he could have won MIP. And this was after he signed his big contract. I understand possibly flipping Brown for one of the players I listed above, but elite two-way wings don't grow on trees.

And that I think is your biggest mistake in comparing them to Wall-Beal and Lillard-McCollum. Not only are all of those guys very one-dimensional, but they are all exclusively guards. If you were complaining about building around Kemba, then you would have a point, but we are the envy of pretty much every NBA team out there right now. How many teams have guys like Kemba and Hayward who are essentially just supporting players?

I understand that you maybe apprehensive about the ceilings of Tatum and Brown, but you really shouldn't be. We may never win a Title, but with 30 teams in the league, that is very difficult to do. And it won't be because Tatum and Brown aren't good enough.
Yeah, I'm aware that this this will not be popular.  And obviously I would be wrong. 

As to you points, I think my very best take is the comparisons to Beal and Wall and Lillard and McCollum.  That's the level is guys I think we have.  Sure, Brown and Tatum are different players that those guys but I think the tandems are comparable.  I'm especially bearish on Brown who would be on the lower end of the twos in those groups.  Better defender than those guys but worst offensive player/playmaker of the entire bunch (at his peak).

As we go down this road guys like Kemba and Hayward will fall off (either figuratively or literally) and how to we replace them?  If we end up with just guys, and that's all we have at this point, I see us following a similar to all the teams that have been built on two pretty good guys (though tatum has a chance to be better).

Size and defense are major variables when comparing Tatum and Brown to Wall/Beal or Lillard/McCollum. As building blocks its relatively easy to find a starting PG to pair with Tatum and Brown and even easier to construct a big man by committee rotation. Wings are the most valuable position in the NBA and having young talent with positional size on the wing is instantly more valuable then the guards you compare them too.

Yup...this.

Re: Building around Tatum and brown is a mistake
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2020, 01:40:45 PM »

Offline moiso

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I will tell you right now that this is going to be a pretty unpopular take. Assuming Tatum and Brown have already reached their ceiling is a mistake. Other than Luka, Giannis, and maybe Zion, who else would really be above Tatum on the 'if you were to start a team' conversation? Brown essentially blew up this past season - so much so that he could have won MIP. And this was after he signed his big contract. I understand possibly flipping Brown for one of the players I listed above, but elite two-way wings don't grow on trees.

And that I think is your biggest mistake in comparing them to Wall-Beal and Lillard-McCollum. Not only are all of those guys very one-dimensional, but they are all exclusively guards. If you were complaining about building around Kemba, then you would have a point, but we are the envy of pretty much every NBA team out there right now. How many teams have guys like Kemba and Hayward who are essentially just supporting players?

I understand that you maybe apprehensive about the ceilings of Tatum and Brown, but you really shouldn't be. We may never win a Title, but with 30 teams in the league, that is very difficult to do. And it won't be because Tatum and Brown aren't good enough.
I agree with all of this.  Tatum and Brown are pretty much as good as it gets as far as having two young prospects on the same team.  And there is an argument to be made for preferring Tatum to Zion and Giannis.  I get that Giannis is the more dominant player but if you value having someone who can get 4th quarter buckets for you and close out games you could possibly prefer Tatum.  Plus his defense improved drastically this season and he was even playmaking for others very well by the time the playoffs were over. 

I'd definitely take Tatum over Zion because I'm not confident in Zion's ability to stay healthy and in shape.

Re: Building around Tatum and brown is a mistake
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2020, 04:35:41 PM »

Offline ChillyWilly

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I donít think these guys will be good enough to carry this team to championships in and of themselves.  I donít think their respective ceilings are as high as others around here.  I donít see Tatum as mvp level and I donít see brown as perineal all star. 

I see that DA is trying.  We have all star kemba and pretty good Hayward (when healthy).  But those guys are older and wouldn't be here during much of their peak.  And, that was good enough for third in the east and only half way to a title.  Thatís not good enough.

People forget that Washington made it to the eastern conference final with wall and Beal.  Lillard and McCollum have been very successful in portland but havenít really been good enough.  Thatís the level more of less I see for Tatum and brown.

As Hayward and kemba go by the wayside, money could be tight which means that they might just have ďguysĒ around them.  Iím okay with playing out this year just to see.  But if it doesnít work out, championships will ultimately rely on fliping brown for a true star and hope that works.

Healthy Kemba and we are not even having this conversation
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Re: Building around Tatum and brown is a mistake
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2020, 05:52:55 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Whatís our alternative? The only plan better than building around the two of them is to trade one for somebody better.  So, what player is out there that immediately lifts our ability to contend? Giannis? Thatís about the entire list.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2020, 06:15:34 PM by Roy H. »
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Re: Building around Tatum and brown is a mistake
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2020, 06:00:22 PM »

Offline mrceltics2013

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So I agree and disagree with this post. I donít believe that they should build around Tatum and Brown as if they donít need good players around them and to go young.

But I DO believe you build with the mindset of maxing out their potential and handing them the keys is not sending that message.

I also agree that they did try with IT, Kyrie, And Hayward that was really an extraordinary effort. I believe they can let lose these two to produce the max scoring load for sure, but they do not need to run the offense.

The Celtics need to change the mindset of having a scoring PG because itís not needed at all. They need a playmaker BADLY! Tatum and Brown need to get fed and that is whatís needed.

Re: Building around Tatum and brown is a mistake
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2020, 06:12:23 PM »

Online gouki88

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Whatís our alternative? The only plan better than building around the two of them is to trade one.  So, what player is out there that immediately lifts our ability to contend? Giannis? Thatís about the entire list.
Trade for Doncic, make it happen Danny! ;D
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Re: Building around Tatum and brown is a mistake
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2020, 06:16:39 PM »

Offline mrceltics2013

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Whatís our alternative? The only plan better than building around the two of them is to trade one.  So, what player is out there that immediately lifts our ability to contend? Giannis? Thatís about the entire list.
Trade for Doncic, make it happen Danny! ;D

Or realistically,

Spencer Dinwiddie, Jrue Holiday, Rajon Rondo,

Re: Building around Tatum and brown is a mistake
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2020, 06:20:52 PM »

Online RPGenerate

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Oops wrong thread
« Last Edit: October 23, 2020, 06:33:10 PM by RPGenerate »
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Re: Building around Tatum and brown is a mistake
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2020, 12:54:27 AM »

Online gouki88

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Whatís our alternative? The only plan better than building around the two of them is to trade one.  So, what player is out there that immediately lifts our ability to contend? Giannis? Thatís about the entire list.
Trade for Doncic, make it happen Danny! ;D

Or realistically,

Spencer Dinwiddie, Jrue Holiday, Rajon Rondo,
I'd trade Kemba for Jrue.

Wouldn't trade for Dinwiddie, he's inefficient and gets injured a lot. Rondo is a free agent I'm pretty sure too.

In regards to the OP, you're wrong.
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Re: Building around Tatum and brown is a mistake
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2020, 04:32:03 AM »

Offline mrceltics2013

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Whatís our alternative? The only plan better than building around the two of them is to trade one.  So, what player is out there that immediately lifts our ability to contend? Giannis? Thatís about the entire list.
Trade for Doncic, make it happen Danny! ;D

Or realistically,

Spencer Dinwiddie, Jrue Holiday, Rajon Rondo,
I'd trade Kemba for Jrue.

Wouldn't trade for Dinwiddie, he's inefficient and gets injured a lot. Rondo is a free agent I'm pretty sure too.

In regards to the OP, you're wrong.

Yes Jrue would be the ideal target, I just through names of players that fit the bill of what we needed and were actually obtainable without getting rid of the key core guys. I canít argue with your take on Dinwiddie, but if healthy I feel like he fits better than Kemba for the team. I do believe Dinwiddie will have 10+ assist any given night with this team as long as he can stay on the floor.

If he has injury issues, we still have draft picks to back him up. But Iím not going to argue too heavy on Spencer as we both agreed on Jrue as it is and I have a good trade to land him to.


Jrue Holiday| Marcus Smart | Jaylen Brown | Jayson Tatum

That defense though!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can even keep Theis and Time Lord at this point lol.

Re: Building around Tatum and brown is a mistake
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2020, 06:24:52 AM »

Offline mrceltics2013

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Whatís our alternative? The only plan better than building around the two of them is to trade one.  So, what player is out there that immediately lifts our ability to contend? Giannis? Thatís about the entire list.
Trade for Doncic, make it happen Danny! ;D

Or realistically,

Spencer Dinwiddie, Jrue Holiday, Rajon Rondo,
I'd trade Kemba for Jrue.

Wouldn't trade for Dinwiddie, he's inefficient and gets injured a lot. Rondo is a free agent I'm pretty sure too.

In regards to the OP, you're wrong.

Yes Jrue would be the ideal target, I just through names of players that fit the bill of what we needed and were actually obtainable without getting rid of the key core guys. I canít argue with your take on Dinwiddie, but if healthy I feel like he fits better than Kemba for the team. I do believe Dinwiddie will have 10+ assist any given night with this team as long as he can stay on the floor.

If he has injury issues, we still have draft picks to back him up. But Iím not going to argue too heavy on Spencer as we both agreed on Jrue as it is and I have a good trade to land him to.


Jrue Holiday| Marcus Smart | Jaylen Brown | Jayson Tatum

That defense though!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can even keep Theis and Time Lord at this point lol.

Someone i forgot to mention was Ben Simmons. He was tough to get in a trade, but i think i made it work.

https://tradenba.com/trades/Pw3SRZemI

I take pride with going against the grain in trades.



Pacers do this so they can get rid of Turner who doesnít fit and replace him with Theis and have a well balanced player in Hayward to provide playmaking and scoring to make Victor want to stay.

Pacers new lineup:
Pg: Brogdon
Sg: Oladipo
SF: Hayward
PF: Sobonis
C: Theis
- Idk about yíall, but to me this is a crazy good lineup for offense. Theis even provides them down rim protection.


Clippers do this because they need a PG and more overall help for Kawhi, especially when heís load managing. Kemba provides this help! Kemba has carried the hornets for years and didnít have injury issues until last season.  He can coast a little bit with Al and Kawhi as teammates and I feel like this is fair compensation for George.

Clippers new lineup:

Pg: Kemba
Sg: Richardson
Sf:  Kawhi
PF: Harrell
C: Horford

- This is a decent lineup that I feel gives them intensity, effort, professionalism and consistency. Al has a ton left in the tank and with this roster I believe he will be at his best.


Raptors are in an interesting shape. They were 1 good Siakam game away from ECF, but their team is stretched thin when it comes to their contracts. Everyone that matters are either FAís or have a year left. They need help, NOW and Turner + Warren will provide just that.

Raptors new Lineup:
Pg: Vanfleet
Sg: OG
Sf: Warren
PF: Siakum
C: Turner

- Now this is a nice young and efficient team right here. Warren can be a dangerous weapon on offense any given night.



Celtics I feel have a few issues in my opinion. Starter Playmaking and a center who is effective. Zubac is a starter caliber Kanter in my opinion. Although he does not have the stroke of Theis, it wonít be needed as he is so effective around the basket and we already have 2-3 other 20 point scorers. Not to mention we keep both Williams in this trade. I can even play around and trade Lob Williams instead of Theis and we will have the best center rotation we could ask for. 


Celtics new lineup:

Pg: Smart
Sg: Brown
Sf: Tatum
PF: Simmons
C: Zubac

You now have the main core that gets you to the ECF with players that compliment them. Not to mention, building a team with Simmons, Brown, Smart, and Tatum all in their 20ís being coached by Brad couldnít be any better situation for them.

Also notice that the Celtics kept all 3 draft picks in this scenario, all 3 picks can now be used in order to keep the team young and developing.




« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 08:12:32 AM by mrceltics2013 »

Re: Building around Tatum and brown is a mistake
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2020, 10:04:17 AM »

Offline cman88

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arent these guys like 22 and 23 years old? most players dont hit their peak until they are 27 or so.

Steph Curry didnt win a championship until his 6th year. I mean there was a time I remember when there was disscussions of Rondo for Steph Curry discussions and I remember people saying we shouldn't do it because his ankles are shot and Rondo is better.

Re: Building around Tatum and brown is a mistake
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2020, 11:35:49 AM »

Offline RodyTur10

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I'm pretty sure we should keep Tatum and Brown, but asking the question whether a Tatum/Brown combo + role players will be good enough or better than what we currently have is legit I think. Therefore sacrificing a very good player (Walker/Smart/Hayward), (future) role players (Theis/G.Williams/Langford/Timelord) or picks for a top pick in the draft could be interesting.

Rationalism over beliefs

Re: Building around Tatum and brown is a mistake
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2020, 12:10:17 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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Someone i forgot to mention was Ben Simmons. He was tough to get in a trade, but i think i made it work.

https://tradenba.com/trades/Pw3SRZemI

I take pride with going against the grain in trades.
Why only 5 teams? There are 30 teams in the NBA. Feel free to propose a 30-way idea next time. :P
« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 12:15:54 PM by Jvalin »
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