Author Topic: Sam Vecenine - James Wiseman viewed by some execs as one of the safest picks  (Read 1042 times)

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Offline KGs Knee

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James Wiseman really does seem like the biggest unknown of the top prospects.

He looks like he has all the tools to be an elite big in the modern NBA but there is so little tape on him and the way his brief college season went raises more questions than it does provide answers. Teams are going to have to rely on his workouts and interviews much more than they usually would I suspect.

He could be the next DeAndre Ayton.  But if you pick him you better hope he isn't the next Hasheem Thabeet.

There are a lot of differences between James Wiseman and Hasheem Thabeet. Athleticism, offence, fluidity, etc. I don't think its right to compare any risky center with the biggest draft bust of all time.

I've argued that he is at least the prospect that DeAndre Ayton was at the same age, based on athleticism and skills. I see much more fluidity to his game too, similar to Anthony Davis. I'm not saying he will be that great, but I'm saying that his athleticism has a little bit of Davis to him.

He's a great prospect based on what we know of him. If interviews and references demonstrate character question marks, obviously that changes things, but I've not heard any of that.

I'd say the way his college experience played out is one huge red flag for possible character issues. The interviews can alleviate that, though, if he comes across as thoughtful and understanding of what will be asked of him at the NBA level.

And you're right he isn't the same player as Thabeet. But I do think they both share a similar lack of understanding of the finer points of the game of basketball, at least from afar. Could be wrong about that, though, there's just not a lot of tape out there on him against meaningful competition.

You do realize that he got caught with the same type of violations that Ayton committed, but wasn't caught for until after his freshman year, right? There is very little difference there.

Thabeet was a 22 year old junior when he was drafted into the NBA. Wiseman will be a 19 year old freshman. It took three full seasons for Thabeet to get to the point where he could score 14 ppg on 31 mpg. Wiseman has more offensive ability than that already.

When Thabeet was drafted, everyone knew it was highly questionable not only because he lacked a love for the game, but because of his abilities on the court. He was slow-footed and offensively challenged. He was also an older player, which made many wonder how much he could grow.

Thabeet has very, very little in common with Wiseman as a prospect. Wiseman is much more like DeAndre Ayton.

And yet both outcomes are very much a possibility for Wiseman.  He could end up a star or a huge bust. He has some serious red flags as to his character and hasn't shown much court awareness.  But like I said, there's so little meaningful tape on him it's really hard to say, thus why his workouts and interviews are so important.

Lol. But that's just it. Thabeet was never going to become a star. You have provided no substantial evidence of character flaws that many, many other college players coming into the NBA don't also have. His court awareness is a question mark--I agree with you there.

I'd say a guy that gets suspended and then quits his team is absolutely a red flag for character issues. If you disagree that's fine.

Lol. He didn't get suspended. The NCAA ruled he was ineligible to play. When that happened, he made a good choice to invest more in his basketball skills to prepare for his ability to make millions and millions of dollars.

That kind of narrative-shaping and language is untruthful to what really happened.

If you want to quibble over the distinction between suspended and ruled ineligible it's not that important to me.  Effectively it's the same thing.  He broke rules and was not allowed to play.  Then, instead of owning up to his mistakes he quit.  That is a character issue to many people.  If it isn't for you, that's fine.  I don't agree he made the right decision to bail on his team, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree there. His interviews will likely reveal a lot more about him, although I doubt the public will get any of that info first hand, so we'll still just be speculating for the time being.


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James Wiseman really does seem like the biggest unknown of the top prospects.

He looks like he has all the tools to be an elite big in the modern NBA but there is so little tape on him and the way his brief college season went raises more questions than it does provide answers. Teams are going to have to rely on his workouts and interviews much more than they usually would I suspect.

He could be the next DeAndre Ayton.  But if you pick him you better hope he isn't the next Hasheem Thabeet.

There are a lot of differences between James Wiseman and Hasheem Thabeet. Athleticism, offence, fluidity, etc. I don't think its right to compare any risky center with the biggest draft bust of all time.

I've argued that he is at least the prospect that DeAndre Ayton was at the same age, based on athleticism and skills. I see much more fluidity to his game too, similar to Anthony Davis. I'm not saying he will be that great, but I'm saying that his athleticism has a little bit of Davis to him.

He's a great prospect based on what we know of him. If interviews and references demonstrate character question marks, obviously that changes things, but I've not heard any of that.

I'd say the way his college experience played out is one huge red flag for possible character issues. The interviews can alleviate that, though, if he comes across as thoughtful and understanding of what will be asked of him at the NBA level.

And you're right he isn't the same player as Thabeet. But I do think they both share a similar lack of understanding of the finer points of the game of basketball, at least from afar. Could be wrong about that, though, there's just not a lot of tape out there on him against meaningful competition.

You do realize that he got caught with the same type of violations that Ayton committed, but wasn't caught for until after his freshman year, right? There is very little difference there.

Thabeet was a 22 year old junior when he was drafted into the NBA. Wiseman will be a 19 year old freshman. It took three full seasons for Thabeet to get to the point where he could score 14 ppg on 31 mpg. Wiseman has more offensive ability than that already.

When Thabeet was drafted, everyone knew it was highly questionable not only because he lacked a love for the game, but because of his abilities on the court. He was slow-footed and offensively challenged. He was also an older player, which made many wonder how much he could grow.

Thabeet has very, very little in common with Wiseman as a prospect. Wiseman is much more like DeAndre Ayton.

And yet both outcomes are very much a possibility for Wiseman.  He could end up a star or a huge bust. He has some serious red flags as to his character and hasn't shown much court awareness.  But like I said, there's so little meaningful tape on him it's really hard to say, thus why his workouts and interviews are so important.

Lol. But that's just it. Thabeet was never going to become a star. You have provided no substantial evidence of character flaws that many, many other college players coming into the NBA don't also have. His court awareness is a question mark--I agree with you there.

I'd say a guy that gets suspended and then quits his team is absolutely a red flag for character issues. If you disagree that's fine.

Lol. He didn't get suspended. The NCAA ruled he was ineligible to play. When that happened, he made a good choice to invest more in his basketball skills to prepare for his ability to make millions and millions of dollars.

That kind of narrative-shaping and language is untruthful to what really happened.

If you want to quibble over the distinction between suspended and ruled ineligible it's not that important to me.  Effectively it's the same thing.  He broke rules and was not allowed to play.  Then, instead of owning up to his mistakes he quit.  That is a character issue to many people.  If it isn't for you, that's fine.  I don't agree he made the right decision to bail on his team, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree there. His interviews will likely reveal a lot more about him, although I doubt the public will get any of that info first hand, so we'll still just be speculating for the time being.

It's not quibbling. One word choice paints it very negatively. The other is more neutrally. One shades things negatively toward his character. The other is more neutral.

And what level of contact is he allowed to have with his team when he's ruled ineligible? Again, using the word "quitting" doesn't quite represent his decision. He made an active decision to prioritize preparation for his million-dollar career. I doubt he wanted to leave his teammates behind. it sounds like he was close with his freshman teammates given their choice to all play together. In fact, his coach Penny Hardaway likely encouraged him to do so.

Offline keevsnick

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James Wiseman really does seem like the biggest unknown of the top prospects.

He looks like he has all the tools to be an elite big in the modern NBA but there is so little tape on him and the way his brief college season went raises more questions than it does provide answers. Teams are going to have to rely on his workouts and interviews much more than they usually would I suspect.

He could be the next DeAndre Ayton.  But if you pick him you better hope he isn't the next Hasheem Thabeet.

There are a lot of differences between James Wiseman and Hasheem Thabeet. Athleticism, offence, fluidity, etc. I don't think its right to compare any risky center with the biggest draft bust of all time.

I've argued that he is at least the prospect that DeAndre Ayton was at the same age, based on athleticism and skills. I see much more fluidity to his game too, similar to Anthony Davis. I'm not saying he will be that great, but I'm saying that his athleticism has a little bit of Davis to him.

He's a great prospect based on what we know of him. If interviews and references demonstrate character question marks, obviously that changes things, but I've not heard any of that.

I'd say the way his college experience played out is one huge red flag for possible character issues. The interviews can alleviate that, though, if he comes across as thoughtful and understanding of what will be asked of him at the NBA level.

And you're right he isn't the same player as Thabeet. But I do think they both share a similar lack of understanding of the finer points of the game of basketball, at least from afar. Could be wrong about that, though, there's just not a lot of tape out there on him against meaningful competition.

Given the NCAA is a clown of an organization I hold violations of the nature Wiseman committed 0% against him.

Offline KGs Knee

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James Wiseman really does seem like the biggest unknown of the top prospects.

He looks like he has all the tools to be an elite big in the modern NBA but there is so little tape on him and the way his brief college season went raises more questions than it does provide answers. Teams are going to have to rely on his workouts and interviews much more than they usually would I suspect.

He could be the next DeAndre Ayton.  But if you pick him you better hope he isn't the next Hasheem Thabeet.

There are a lot of differences between James Wiseman and Hasheem Thabeet. Athleticism, offence, fluidity, etc. I don't think its right to compare any risky center with the biggest draft bust of all time.

I've argued that he is at least the prospect that DeAndre Ayton was at the same age, based on athleticism and skills. I see much more fluidity to his game too, similar to Anthony Davis. I'm not saying he will be that great, but I'm saying that his athleticism has a little bit of Davis to him.

He's a great prospect based on what we know of him. If interviews and references demonstrate character question marks, obviously that changes things, but I've not heard any of that.

I'd say the way his college experience played out is one huge red flag for possible character issues. The interviews can alleviate that, though, if he comes across as thoughtful and understanding of what will be asked of him at the NBA level.

And you're right he isn't the same player as Thabeet. But I do think they both share a similar lack of understanding of the finer points of the game of basketball, at least from afar. Could be wrong about that, though, there's just not a lot of tape out there on him against meaningful competition.

Given the NCAA is a clown of an organization I hold violations of the nature Wiseman committed 0% against him.

Oh, I don't disagree the NCAA is shady as it gets, but if you willingly sign up knowing the rules ahead of time I do think it is on you to follow them.  Wiseman could have done what other top prospect have started doing and gone professional instead of going the NCAA route.  His team was counting on him and he let them down.

I don't think it should just be hand waived away.  Maybe it's just a blip, maybe it isn't. Time will tell.

Offline mmmmm

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James Wiseman really does seem like the biggest unknown of the top prospects.

He looks like he has all the tools to be an elite big in the modern NBA but there is so little tape on him and the way his brief college season went raises more questions than it does provide answers. Teams are going to have to rely on his workouts and interviews much more than they usually would I suspect.

He could be the next DeAndre Ayton.  But if you pick him you better hope he isn't the next Hasheem Thabeet.

There are a lot of differences between James Wiseman and Hasheem Thabeet. Athleticism, offence, fluidity, etc. I don't think its right to compare any risky center with the biggest draft bust of all time.

I've argued that he is at least the prospect that DeAndre Ayton was at the same age, based on athleticism and skills. I see much more fluidity to his game too, similar to Anthony Davis. I'm not saying he will be that great, but I'm saying that his athleticism has a little bit of Davis to him.

He's a great prospect based on what we know of him. If interviews and references demonstrate character question marks, obviously that changes things, but I've not heard any of that.

I'd say the way his college experience played out is one huge red flag for possible character issues. The interviews can alleviate that, though, if he comes across as thoughtful and understanding of what will be asked of him at the NBA level.

And you're right he isn't the same player as Thabeet. But I do think they both share a similar lack of understanding of the finer points of the game of basketball, at least from afar. Could be wrong about that, though, there's just not a lot of tape out there on him against meaningful competition.

Given the NCAA is a clown of an organization I hold violations of the nature Wiseman committed 0% against him.

Ditto.

Trying to build a narrative about Wiseman's "character" seems like an incredibly thin reach.

The whole incident ultimately is caused by the NCAA's totally hypocritical and exploitative 'amature athletics' model which is just a big gigantic farce and encourages incidents just like what happened with Wiseman.

For those who are not familiar with why he was ruled ineligible:
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/28079183/memphis-declares-james-wiseman-ineligible-play-drops-lawsuit-vs-ncaa
Quote
Memphis said last week the NCAA had initially declared Wiseman eligible in May, but further investigation found documentation of Memphis coach Anfernee Hardaway's payment to Wiseman's family in 2017. The school said Wiseman had no knowledge of the payment.

The school acknowledged last week that Hardaway, before he became the Tigers' coach, provided $11,500 in moving expenses for Wiseman and his family to move from Nashville to Memphis in the summer of 2017. At the time, Hardaway was Wiseman's AAU coach and would then coach him at Memphis East High School. Hardaway, a Memphis alum, was considered a booster due to a $1 million donation he gave the school in 2008 to build a sports hall of fame.

Wiseman was ruled ineligible Friday before a Shelby County judge issued a restraining order allowing Wiseman to play in that night's game. The NCAA issued a statement saying, "The University of Memphis was notified that James Wiseman is likely ineligible. The university chose to play him and ultimately is responsible for ensuring its student-athletes are eligible to play."

Here is another quick read outline of the case:

https://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2019/11/11/20958842/james-wiseman-eligibility-memphis-tigers-ncaa-nba-draft-2020

NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Offline mmmmm

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James Wiseman really does seem like the biggest unknown of the top prospects.

He looks like he has all the tools to be an elite big in the modern NBA but there is so little tape on him and the way his brief college season went raises more questions than it does provide answers. Teams are going to have to rely on his workouts and interviews much more than they usually would I suspect.

He could be the next DeAndre Ayton.  But if you pick him you better hope he isn't the next Hasheem Thabeet.

There are a lot of differences between James Wiseman and Hasheem Thabeet. Athleticism, offence, fluidity, etc. I don't think its right to compare any risky center with the biggest draft bust of all time.

I've argued that he is at least the prospect that DeAndre Ayton was at the same age, based on athleticism and skills. I see much more fluidity to his game too, similar to Anthony Davis. I'm not saying he will be that great, but I'm saying that his athleticism has a little bit of Davis to him.

He's a great prospect based on what we know of him. If interviews and references demonstrate character question marks, obviously that changes things, but I've not heard any of that.

I'd say the way his college experience played out is one huge red flag for possible character issues. The interviews can alleviate that, though, if he comes across as thoughtful and understanding of what will be asked of him at the NBA level.

And you're right he isn't the same player as Thabeet. But I do think they both share a similar lack of understanding of the finer points of the game of basketball, at least from afar. Could be wrong about that, though, there's just not a lot of tape out there on him against meaningful competition.

Given the NCAA is a clown of an organization I hold violations of the nature Wiseman committed 0% against him.

Oh, I don't disagree the NCAA is shady as it gets, but if you willingly sign up knowing the rules ahead of time I do think it is on you to follow them.  Wiseman could have done what other top prospect have started doing and gone professional instead of going the NCAA route.  His team was counting on him and he let them down.

I don't think it should just be hand waived away.  Maybe it's just a blip, maybe it isn't. Time will tell.

There is no indication that Wiseman DIDN'T follow the rules.  From all that we know, Hardaway paid his family's moving expenses without Wiseman's individual knowledge.   And even that alone wasn't the trigger for the problem.  The problem only kicks up because Hardaway was classified as a non-institutional 'booster' and that is what made the payment against the rules.

It isn't what Wiseman did that got him ruled ineligible.  It is what Hardaway did and only because of Hardaway's status that caused Wiseman to be afoul of the NCAA's absurd rules.

Your portrayal of this as Wiseman somehow 'letting down' his teammates who were 'counting on him' is simply not correct.  Please give it a rest.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

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James Wiseman really does seem like the biggest unknown of the top prospects.

He looks like he has all the tools to be an elite big in the modern NBA but there is so little tape on him and the way his brief college season went raises more questions than it does provide answers. Teams are going to have to rely on his workouts and interviews much more than they usually would I suspect.

He could be the next DeAndre Ayton.  But if you pick him you better hope he isn't the next Hasheem Thabeet.

There are a lot of differences between James Wiseman and Hasheem Thabeet. Athleticism, offence, fluidity, etc. I don't think its right to compare any risky center with the biggest draft bust of all time.

I've argued that he is at least the prospect that DeAndre Ayton was at the same age, based on athleticism and skills. I see much more fluidity to his game too, similar to Anthony Davis. I'm not saying he will be that great, but I'm saying that his athleticism has a little bit of Davis to him.

He's a great prospect based on what we know of him. If interviews and references demonstrate character question marks, obviously that changes things, but I've not heard any of that.

I'd say the way his college experience played out is one huge red flag for possible character issues. The interviews can alleviate that, though, if he comes across as thoughtful and understanding of what will be asked of him at the NBA level.

And you're right he isn't the same player as Thabeet. But I do think they both share a similar lack of understanding of the finer points of the game of basketball, at least from afar. Could be wrong about that, though, there's just not a lot of tape out there on him against meaningful competition.

Given the NCAA is a clown of an organization I hold violations of the nature Wiseman committed 0% against him.

Oh, I don't disagree the NCAA is shady as it gets, but if you willingly sign up knowing the rules ahead of time I do think it is on you to follow them.  Wiseman could have done what other top prospect have started doing and gone professional instead of going the NCAA route.  His team was counting on him and he let them down.

I don't think it should just be hand waived away.  Maybe it's just a blip, maybe it isn't. Time will tell.

There is no indication that Wiseman DIDN'T follow the rules.  From all that we know, Hardaway paid his family's moving expenses without Wiseman's individual knowledge.   And even that alone wasn't the trigger for the problem.  The problem only kicks up because Hardaway was classified as a non-institutional 'booster' and that is what made the payment against the rules.

It isn't what Wiseman did that got him ruled ineligible.  It is what Hardaway did and only because of Hardaway's status that caused Wiseman to be afoul of the NCAA's absurd rules.

Your portrayal of this as Wiseman somehow 'letting down' his teammates who were 'counting on him' is simply not correct.  Please give it a rest.
Nailed it. Questions over his playmaking or the sample size we saw are legit - questions over his character are not