Author Topic: Cís locker room after Game 2  (Read 4703 times)

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Re: Cís locker room after Game 2
« Reply #60 on: September 21, 2020, 12:45:59 AM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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From Nickagenta:

This is a pretty humorous take on Brown. His passivity ..lol. You must have missed the entire Raptors series where his passivity completely shut down a 2nd team All-NBA player and was one of the main reasons the Celtics won that series.

And offensively, if the other players let him actually touch the ball, he is one of the more aggressive offensive players we have. Pretty tough to be aggressive offensively if the coach sits you in a corner, doesn't have you move as part of the offensive set and the other players refuse to get you the ball.

I have said this a couple times on this site...the lack of touches for Brown in this series is disturbing. It's not him being passive, it's his team mates freezing him out. And it's not like he can go steal the ball from his team mates or blow up the offensive set by moving out of position to demand the ball.

Your entire narrative here is just not in line with the reality on the court that just about every other person sees. You are clearly just not a fan of Brown and using this made up nonsense as a reason for it.

Wow, a lot to unpack here, many false assertions and incorrect assumptions:

1. No humor intended because it's not a "humorous take", it's a spot on analysis. This year, Jaylen has improved his defensive effort, improved his passing, his rebounding and his scoring. These achievements are great. However, the fact remains he is wildly inconsistent with his effort, his grit, his motor and his heart on a night to night basis. I again would venture a guess that is very much what Smart lit into him about. "That inconsistency" is the main reason he is a "good" but not great player yet. Tatum plays with more consistent tenacity than Brown does on both ends of the court, on a night to night basis and it is a big part of the reason he is currently an all star, on his way to superstardom.

2. Oh boy, with the "Jaylen shut down Siakim argument". This is a very problematic assertion. Let's not get carried away and assert that Siakim is the offensive dynamo tantamount to the likes of Lebron James, Durant or Harden. That guy can barely dribble, is a poor outside shooter (35% from three) and isn't much of a passer (3 assists a game). So...if you jam him up outside he can't shoot over you very well, nor can he drive past you with any consistency. His main offense skill is shooting over people in the paint. Jaylen Brown should have easily been able to shut him down. He's faster, just as strong and long enough to bother an outside shot if Siakim tries to heave one over him because he can't get around him.

3. I don't buy his teammates freezing him out. That's a cop out. Jaylen Brown needs to attack the basket when his opportunities present themselves. In Game three, Jaylen was actually in attack mode and it paid off. Nobody's "freezing Brown out". All these guys get a fair amount of looks in Stevens' offense. Tatum and Kemba probably get more but there's a reason for that.

4. You mention my entire narrative is not in line with reality or in consensus with the opinions of the larger Celtics fan base. I do apologize as I didn't realize that you  A) currently possessed a monopoly on the true reality of what I'm seeing and   B) had conducted extensive surveys so as to ascertain a consensus of the Celtics fan base's collective perception of Jaylen Brown as a basketball player.

5. You again assert with authority that I simply must not be a fan of Jaylen Brown if I don't see his game the way you do. Moving forward, please refrain from assuming you have a monopoly on what I think - it is a wildly inaccurate assertion. I am in fact a "major" fan of Jaylen Brown. He has great promise and has made great strides. I have friends who grew up with him. By all accounts he is a super kid, super intelligent, clearly a phenomenal athlete. He's someone you can't point to as a person to admire for who he is as a person. That said, his heart, grit, motor and physical intensity remain wildly inconsistent. Last night in Game three, he played with force and intensity the entire game - finally. He attacked the rim relentlessly, with good results and he was super disruptive defensively. Smart, or someone got into him and got him fired up. However, that energy is not what you get from Jaylen every night - it's more like two in five nights if you're lucky. He still drifts for too much. A guy with his physical advantages, even versus most other NBA guys, should be imposing his offensive and defensive will fairly regularly -as he did last night. He should be bullying guys in the past, attacking the rim and stifling guys with D. He does this when dialed in. The problem? He's not dialed in often enough. He's pegged as the second piece with Tatum - that means he has to lead by example - particularly in the "consistent effort category"  He has all NBA potential - he needs to act like it.

Lastly, there's nothing made up about what I'm saying. Jaylen Brown needs to play like a pit bull, not a Collie, to reach his highest ceiling in the NBA. He has to be more Smart than Tatum. The main reasons for this are that unlike Tatum, he does not have a natural feel for the game nor does he have the highest BBQ IQ. However, he possesses physical advantages, in bunches, over most other NBA players - a unique combination of run/jump athleticism with strength and length. But he needs to ride those advantages with consistent heart, grit, motor and physical force play if he want to become an all star and/or make an all NBA team - depending on how consistently hard he plays, and how often.     

Re: Cís locker room after Game 2
« Reply #61 on: September 21, 2020, 12:59:19 AM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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I am also 100% in agreement with Scal's criticism of all those plays. Brown is often way too passive defensively with hedges and trying to help on offensive actions happening close by him. He often just stands still. Not picking up Smart seemed strange to me when it happened.

Also agreed on Tatum. It's a physical series. We have to play with more force, and meet the challenge - stop whining to the refs. We met the challenge in Game three, if we can get Game four, I think we're a lock to win the series. Better bring our big boy pants and a lot of force, end to end for 48 minutes Wednesday night - that game likely decides the series. 

Re: Cís locker room after Game 2
« Reply #62 on: September 21, 2020, 01:48:26 AM »

Online gouki88

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Yawn. Anyone who thinks an All-NBA 2nd Team player is someone who should be "easily shut down" is full of it

Re: Cís locker room after Game 2
« Reply #63 on: September 21, 2020, 02:09:54 AM »

Offline RPGenerate

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Yawn. Anyone who thinks an All-NBA 2nd Team player is someone who should be "easily shut down" is full of it
Not that I agree with the poster above about Brown, but I think this is a pretty weak retort. Siakam had been playing consistently subpar in the bubble after admitting he hadn't picked up a basketball in 3 months.  His August statline is 17 points on sub-40% shooting. Plus he's simply not a very impressive offensive player at this point. Weak handle, mediocre 3 point shooter, ect. I think Brown did a fine job on Siakam, but it wasn't this incredibly impressive feat.
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Re: Cís locker room after Game 2
« Reply #64 on: September 21, 2020, 08:13:45 AM »

Online gouki88

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Yawn. Anyone who thinks an All-NBA 2nd Team player is someone who should be "easily shut down" is full of it
Not that I agree with the poster above about Brown, but I think this is a pretty weak retort. Siakam had been playing consistently subpar in the bubble after admitting he hadn't picked up a basketball in 3 months.  His August statline is 17 points on sub-40% shooting. Plus he's simply not a very impressive offensive player at this point. Weak handle, mediocre 3 point shooter, ect. I think Brown did a fine job on Siakam, but it wasn't this incredibly impressive feat.
Massive recency bias. Siakam with a weak excuse to cover for him being locked up. Tatum had similar circumstances through the lockdown.

Re: Cís locker room after Game 2
« Reply #65 on: September 21, 2020, 09:22:30 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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Wow.  Just have to shake my head.


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Re: Cís locker room after Game 2
« Reply #66 on: September 21, 2020, 09:31:49 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

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From Nickagenta:

This is a pretty humorous take on Brown. His passivity ..lol. You must have missed the entire Raptors series where his passivity completely shut down a 2nd team All-NBA player and was one of the main reasons the Celtics won that series.

And offensively, if the other players let him actually touch the ball, he is one of the more aggressive offensive players we have. Pretty tough to be aggressive offensively if the coach sits you in a corner, doesn't have you move as part of the offensive set and the other players refuse to get you the ball.

I have said this a couple times on this site...the lack of touches for Brown in this series is disturbing. It's not him being passive, it's his team mates freezing him out. And it's not like he can go steal the ball from his team mates or blow up the offensive set by moving out of position to demand the ball.

Your entire narrative here is just not in line with the reality on the court that just about every other person sees. You are clearly just not a fan of Brown and using this made up nonsense as a reason for it.

Wow, a lot to unpack here, many false assertions and incorrect assumptions:

1. No humor intended because it's not a "humorous take", it's a spot on analysis. This year, Jaylen has improved his defensive effort, improved his passing, his rebounding and his scoring. These achievements are great. However, the fact remains he is wildly inconsistent with his effort, his grit, his motor and his heart on a night to night basis. I again would venture a guess that is very much what Smart lit into him about. "That inconsistency" is the main reason he is a "good" but not great player yet. Tatum plays with more consistent tenacity than Brown does on both ends of the court, on a night to night basis and it is a big part of the reason he is currently an all star, on his way to superstardom.

2. Oh boy, with the "Jaylen shut down Siakim argument". This is a very problematic assertion. Let's not get carried away and assert that Siakim is the offensive dynamo tantamount to the likes of Lebron James, Durant or Harden. That guy can barely dribble, is a poor outside shooter (35% from three) and isn't much of a passer (3 assists a game). So...if you jam him up outside he can't shoot over you very well, nor can he drive past you with any consistency. His main offense skill is shooting over people in the paint. Jaylen Brown should have easily been able to shut him down. He's faster, just as strong and long enough to bother an outside shot if Siakim tries to heave one over him because he can't get around him.

3. I don't buy his teammates freezing him out. That's a cop out. Jaylen Brown needs to attack the basket when his opportunities present themselves. In Game three, Jaylen was actually in attack mode and it paid off. Nobody's "freezing Brown out". All these guys get a fair amount of looks in Stevens' offense. Tatum and Kemba probably get more but there's a reason for that.

4. You mention my entire narrative is not in line with reality or in consensus with the opinions of the larger Celtics fan base. I do apologize as I didn't realize that you  A) currently possessed a monopoly on the true reality of what I'm seeing and   B) had conducted extensive surveys so as to ascertain a consensus of the Celtics fan base's collective perception of Jaylen Brown as a basketball player.

5. You again assert with authority that I simply must not be a fan of Jaylen Brown if I don't see his game the way you do. Moving forward, please refrain from assuming you have a monopoly on what I think - it is a wildly inaccurate assertion. I am in fact a "major" fan of Jaylen Brown. He has great promise and has made great strides. I have friends who grew up with him. By all accounts he is a super kid, super intelligent, clearly a phenomenal athlete. He's someone you can't point to as a person to admire for who he is as a person. That said, his heart, grit, motor and physical intensity remain wildly inconsistent. Last night in Game three, he played with force and intensity the entire game - finally. He attacked the rim relentlessly, with good results and he was super disruptive defensively. Smart, or someone got into him and got him fired up. However, that energy is not what you get from Jaylen every night - it's more like two in five nights if you're lucky. He still drifts for too much. A guy with his physical advantages, even versus most other NBA guys, should be imposing his offensive and defensive will fairly regularly -as he did last night. He should be bullying guys in the past, attacking the rim and stifling guys with D. He does this when dialed in. The problem? He's not dialed in often enough. He's pegged as the second piece with Tatum - that means he has to lead by example - particularly in the "consistent effort category"  He has all NBA potential - he needs to act like it.

Lastly, there's nothing made up about what I'm saying. Jaylen Brown needs to play like a pit bull, not a Collie, to reach his highest ceiling in the NBA. He has to be more Smart than Tatum. The main reasons for this are that unlike Tatum, he does not have a natural feel for the game nor does he have the highest BBQ IQ. However, he possesses physical advantages, in bunches, over most other NBA players - a unique combination of run/jump athleticism with strength and length. But he needs to ride those advantages with consistent heart, grit, motor and physical force play if he want to become an all star and/or make an all NBA team - depending on how consistently hard he plays, and how often.   

Excellent post! Well earned TP!

Re: Cís locker room after Game 2
« Reply #67 on: September 21, 2020, 11:06:18 AM »

Offline RPGenerate

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Yawn. Anyone who thinks an All-NBA 2nd Team player is someone who should be "easily shut down" is full of it
Not that I agree with the poster above about Brown, but I think this is a pretty weak retort. Siakam had been playing consistently subpar in the bubble after admitting he hadn't picked up a basketball in 3 months.  His August statline is 17 points on sub-40% shooting. Plus he's simply not a very impressive offensive player at this point. Weak handle, mediocre 3 point shooter, ect. I think Brown did a fine job on Siakam, but it wasn't this incredibly impressive feat.
Massive recency bias. Siakam with a weak excuse to cover for him being locked up. Tatum had similar circumstances through the lockdown.
Not sure what part of my post is making excuses for Siakam, considering what I said was more of a massive condemnation of Siakam as a player than anything. If I have recency bias, you have "November-December bias". I'm simply telling you how Siamam has been awful for a solid month heading into the playoffs.
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Re: Cís locker room after Game 2
« Reply #68 on: September 21, 2020, 11:44:32 AM »

Offline td450

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What's up with Marcus Smart?

The fact remains he is wildly inconsistent with his effort, his grit, his motor and his heart on a night to night basis. Sometimes he just takes over the game, while other times he just disappears.

Yeah, it sounds like that.

Re: Cís locker room after Game 2
« Reply #69 on: September 21, 2020, 12:03:45 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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What's up with Marcus Smart?

The fact remains he is wildly inconsistent with his effort, his grit, his motor and his heart on a night to night basis. Sometimes he just takes over the game, while other times he just disappears.

Yeah, it sounds like that.

I think you are confusing effort with results

Re: Cís locker room after Game 2
« Reply #70 on: September 21, 2020, 12:23:24 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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From KG's Knee:  Excellent post! Well earned TP!. 
Thanks KG. Brown played like KG, as far as focus, energy and intensity in Game three. Let's see if he does it again in Game 4. I'm less concerned with the Box score results than I am the level of consistent effort. If he plays with consistent force, everything else will take care of it itself - it's the key to fully unlocking his potential. I've always felt if/when Brown makes that mental leap (dialed in tenacity nightly on both ends) is when he will make the leap to superstardom. He has the tools - would love to see him make the mental leap.

From Gouki88: "Yawn. Anyone who thinks an All-NBA 2nd Team player is someone who should be "easily shut down" is full of it."

1. So now because I have an opinion on what I'm seeing "I'm full of it" because I disagree with you. Perfect. Sounds a lot like Nickagenta claiming

A) I must not be a fan of Brown because I'm criticizing him

Alos saying that:

B) I'm not in reality because I view Jaylen Brown in a different way than he does or that 

C) because I criticize Brown I have to making stuff up because I'm not a fan of Jaylen Brown couldn't imagine a weaker response.

It's like the "thought police" where people have a monopoly on all truths, particularly of other people and you're penalized for having a different view, by being told you're either not in reality or you're clearly full of it.

Lastly:  Just to be clear, we're now claiming that Siakim is an offensive tour de force. So we're putting him in with LeBron, Durant, Harden, Jamaal Murray, Donovan Mitchell, Tatum, etc? I would strongly disagree and here's why:

1. All the other guys I just mentioned have a massive arsenal of offensive moves. Primarily, they can all shoot off the dribble, shoot from all over the floor and have counter moves to counter moves to counter moves when defended well. They have the second, 3rd, 4th and 5th moves to throw at you when you defend them toughly. Siakim is basically a fairly raw offensive talent who has a long way to go before becoming this level of an offensive player. He just doesn't have the skill or nuance to his game, which is why it's easier to shut him down in the playoffs when teams focus in on him. He's not a great outside shooter ad can't dribble that well. He also doesn't not have that natural intuitive feel on the offensive end. He's more robotic. His main offensive move, outside of a wide open three pointer (he can't take a three pointer off the dribble with any consistent efficiency) with guys on him like these other players can, is to use his length to shoot over guys close to the basket.

Siakim is not an all NBA player mainly because of his offense - it's because of his overall game. In some ways he's like Jaylen Brown earlier in his career. If you jammed him up he struggled because his handle wasn't that good. Brown has really made progress with two things that have made him a more dynamic offensive player;  A) his ball handling has improved dramatically so that now he can go anywhere he wants and the ball will follow,  B) he's gotten much better at understanding pace, with the ball in his hands, and C) he's really improved his understanding of how to finish at the rim.  Siakim has a long way to go before we can anoint him an elite offensive player. Right now, a focused disciplined defense can shut him down and that's exactly what happens in the playoffs. He is unable to impose his offensive will because of it. This is not the case for Jayson Tatum, Murry, Mitchell, LeBron, etc - because they have so much more nuance and offensive skill that allows them every counter move in the book for defenses, while they're on the move with the ball.         
 

Re: Cís locker room after Game 2
« Reply #71 on: September 21, 2020, 06:49:54 PM »

Online gouki88

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Yawn. Anyone who thinks an All-NBA 2nd Team player is someone who should be "easily shut down" is full of it
Not that I agree with the poster above about Brown, but I think this is a pretty weak retort. Siakam had been playing consistently subpar in the bubble after admitting he hadn't picked up a basketball in 3 months.  His August statline is 17 points on sub-40% shooting. Plus he's simply not a very impressive offensive player at this point. Weak handle, mediocre 3 point shooter, ect. I think Brown did a fine job on Siakam, but it wasn't this incredibly impressive feat.
Massive recency bias. Siakam with a weak excuse to cover for him being locked up. Tatum had similar circumstances through the lockdown.
Not sure what part of my post is making excuses for Siakam, considering what I said was more of a massive condemnation of Siakam as a player than anything. If I have recency bias, you have "November-December bias". I'm simply telling you how Siamam has been awful for a solid month heading into the playoffs.
Not you, Siakamís own admission was an excuse. Many other players went through the same thing and got over it.

Lol at ďNovember-December biasĒ. Siakam averaged 23PPG over February and March, right up until the shutdown. He played badly in the bubble, but turned it around against Brooklyn, averaging over 20PPG and even improving his passing, with one 10 assist game.
Then he comes up against us and averages below 15PPG and never shoots more than 4 free throws, below his season average. Iím not trying to say heís some offensive beast, but to try and discredit Brown locking down the top scorer on the #2 East team is not something I agree with.

Are ScoobyDoo: youíre the one putting words in my mouth claiming I said Siakam was that kind of offensive player. You said locking down a 23PPG player on the reigning champion team should have been easy for Brown. I think thatís a ridiculous statement, and reflective of Brownís excellence

Re: Cís locker room after Game 2
« Reply #72 on: September 21, 2020, 08:53:39 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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Fair enough gouki88, certainly didn't mean to put words in your mouth. It is true he scored 23 a game for the defending champs and #2 team in the East this year. 

That said, I just see him as a limited offensive talent who likely finds it much easier to score in the regular season than in the playoffs where top notch defensive teams zero in on key players and try to take away their stuff. Not saying Brown didn't do a good job. He did, as did the Celtics team as a whole, on Siakim. At this stage of his offensive development I think he's easier to slow down when you te away the few thing he does well.

Also for clarity, I am a "major" Jaylen Brown fan. He has such huge potential with his combination of elite athleticism, strength, length and a super high real life IQ. I do think the game does not come as easily to him as it does to Tatum, the intuitive feel 0 but Brown has made good strides every year - particularly this year and that's good.

I tend to be harder on brown because I think he's the piece who can propel us over the top if he plays with the right physical intensity on a nightly basis 0 it changes everything for us (he was spectacular in game three on both ends of the floor). High potential, higher expectations. And for me, what I see, is that dialed in intensity on a consistent basis his key to fully unlocking his game. Young players take different time frames to get there. Jaylen is moving in that direction - I still think he needs to take it up another notch or two to get all the way there... He's young and trending in the right direction. I'd really like to see another game from him like game 3, particularly with regards to attacking the rim and the defensive end of       
the floor.

Re: Cís locker room after Game 2
« Reply #73 on: September 21, 2020, 09:23:38 PM »

Offline wiley

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What's up with Marcus Smart?

The fact remains he is wildly inconsistent with his effort, his grit, his motor and his heart on a night to night basis. Sometimes he just takes over the game, while other times he just disappears.

Yeah, it sounds like that.

Not sure I understand this post...please explain. 

No Smart no here...

Re: Cís locker room after Game 2
« Reply #74 on: September 22, 2020, 01:50:23 AM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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From td450:

What's up with Marcus Smart?

The fact remains he is wildly inconsistent with his effort, his grit, his motor and his heart on a night to night basis. Sometimes he just takes over the game, while other times he just disappears. Yeah, it sounds like that.

Response:

TP for the well thought out analysis. I'm hoping it didn't take too long for you to formulate the analysis due to it's depth of scope ad insight.

Snarky point taken, but could you at least have used someone like Romeo Langford or Tacko Fall for impact's sake?  Marcus Smart's grit, motor, heart and effort are "never" in questions, ever, ever, ever. His raw physical talent is a fair grade below that of Jaylen Brown and yet, due to his intense physical effort on a nightly basis he is a first team all defensive player. He generally does take over games defensively every time he steps on the floor. Offensively, not so much - and o one expects him to on offense. It's a bonus when he does.

The Jaylen Brown we say in Game three is not the Jaylen Brown you get every night from a an effort standpoint. If you combined Marcus Smart's mind set and effort level with Jaylen Brown's physical skill set you don't have an all star - you have an all NBA player - today.

Jaylen Brown has a major Jeff Green gene in him. He is slowly maturing out of that - including significant improvements this year - but he still has a ways to go.

He flat out does not work as hard, on a night to night basis, as Kemba, Smart, Tatum, Theis or Hayward. Part of the problem is that he's probably been able to rely on his superior athleticism, which is far greater in scale than our other four starters, for most of his career. When he learns how to combine those physical advantages with playing with maximum effort on a nightly basis - he'll be an all NBA player. If he doesn't he'll be an intermittent all star - at best.

We need Game three Jaylen Brown, every night, in order to win a title. As KG's Knee said very well, it's not about the results as much as it is about the effort. Jaylen was so impactful in Game three because he played with real intensity from end to end. That was a different Jaylen Brown in Game three - my guess is it had something to do with Smart getting into him as well as some honest feedback from the rest of the guys in the team meeting with Stevens.

It's probably not all that different than Charles Barkley's story when he asked Moses early in his career why he wasn't playing that much. Moses' answer was "Because you're fat and lazy". Barkley took that to heart, got in shape and went on to have a  hall of fame career. The lazy part of Moses comment applies to Jaylen's inconsistent effort. Let's hop he gets the message and again, plays more like Game three Jaylen more often than not moving forward.