Author Topic: Should Brad Stevens be fired?  (Read 16162 times)

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Re: Should Brad Stevens be fired?
« Reply #195 on: September 20, 2020, 08:14:01 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Not particularly happy with some substitution and rotations but the players are the ones taking stupid ill-advised hero shots and turning the ball over on multiple consecutive possessions.

How is that Brad’s fault?

Yeah, in a 6 minute stretch the Heat outscored us by 15.

During that time, we had four turnovers, a goal-tending, a flagrant foul, gave up nine FTAs, and allowed the Heat to grab three offensive rebounds.

That’s execution, not coaching.

how many timeouts were called in that six minute stretch?

There was at least one timeout and one long (over two minutes) replay review.  I'm not sure if there were any other stoppages where the team huddled.
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Re: Should Brad Stevens be fired?
« Reply #196 on: September 21, 2020, 01:05:19 AM »

Offline TheReaLPuba

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We’re simply the more talented team now.

We have bigger, faster, more skilled players.

As long as we take care of the ball and move the ball we can get any shot we want.

Making shots come and go so obviously we need to play the necessary lock down defense we’re capable of and have been all year long.


Re: Should Brad Stevens be fired?
« Reply #197 on: September 21, 2020, 04:23:09 AM »

Offline Scottiej23

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It's odd that some people seem to put so much weight in these two things;

1) Brad doesn't use time out enough/properly/well.

There is no evidence to support this, none.

2) Brad is not demonstrative enough (loosely translated: he doesn't yell and scream in frustration like I do).

There's no evidence that doing this has any positive effect on anyone, none.

If these are the two biggest things that are used to criticise Brad, then that's actually pretty good evidence to support the claim he is in fact a very, very good basketball coach. Which in turn seems to be pretty close to a consensus amongst any reasonable person with any sort of basketball acumen.

Re: Should Brad Stevens be fired?
« Reply #198 on: September 21, 2020, 04:42:40 AM »

Online ozgod

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It's odd that some people seem to put so much weight in these two things;

1) Brad doesn't use time out enough/properly/well.

There is no evidence to support this, none.

2) Brad is not demonstrative enough (loosely translated: he doesn't yell and scream in frustration like I do).

There's no evidence that doing this has any positive effect on anyone, none.

If these are the two biggest things that are used to criticise Brad, then that's actually pretty good evidence to support the claim he is in fact a very, very good basketball coach. Which in turn seems to be pretty close to a consensus amongst any reasonable person with any sort of basketball acumen.

I would also like to see evidence of this, out of genuine curiosity. These are some of our sacred cows in the game - timeouts break momentum, yelling at refs influences them to change their decisions later on, etc. I'd like to know if someone out there has made a quantitative analysis of it.

I feel like sometimes people get heated up in the game threads (who doesn't, I've been suspended from game threads for a month for being too heated up  ;D) and they want to know that Brad is heated up too and they want him to jump up and down, yell at the refs that we're getting robbed and wants them to give his players a good old spray like we do when they mess up.

I think it's also that philosophically there are generally regarded to be three main schools of thought when it comes to coaching style: autocratic, democratic and holistic. Basically:

  • Autocratic - Autocratic coaching can best be summed up by the phrase “My way or the highway.” Autocratic coaches make decisions with little to no input from the player or players. The coach articulates a vision for what needs to be accomplished by the players, and the players are expected to perform. Autocratic coaching is win-focused and typically features inflexible training structures.
  • Democratic - Democratic coaching is exactly what it sounds like. Coaches facilitate decision making and goal setting with input from their athletes instead of dictating to them. This style of coaching is athlete-centered, and the athletes shape their own objectives under a framework outlined by the coach. Democratic coaches give a lot of autonomy to players and teams, who are active collaborators in their own development and direction.
  • Holistic - Also known as “laissez-faire” coaching, this style of coaching is founded on the theory that a happy team naturally becomes a successful team. Very little is offered in terms of structured training or positive feedback. Instead, the holistic coach works to create an environment where players feel comfortable exploring and pursuing skills development on their own time and in their own way. The coach does not act as a central authority, and instead allows the team to set their own agenda.

https://onlinesportmanagement.ku.edu/community/styles-of-coaching

Anyone who has managed people whether it be in sport or in a team in business knows that there's no one "right" style of leadership and that there are different styles that work for different people, and in some cases you have to change your style depending on the situation. A democratic coaching style might not work as well when there's a crisis and quick, decisive action is needed because there are malcontents in the team, like what happened last year.. Likewise an autocratic leadership style may chafe on people and create strain and tension in the team, particularly if the autocratic coach isn't a Belichick or a Popovic with decades of experience and gravitas.

I'm guessing Brad's leadership style is between Democratic and Holistic. He wants his players to take responsibility for their actions and to learn from their own mistakes. Even if it means not calling a timeout or not drawing up a last game play to win the game. And I'm guessing the people who are unhappy with him want him to be more autocratic, to tell the players what to do instead of figuring things out for themselves.

Personally I don't really care what his leadership style is as long as he's delivering the results. Ultimately Brad has command authority, and for that reason I held him responsible for what happened last year, to fail to prepare the team to gel and to not work with the FO to change things when it looks like things weren't working. This year he's made mistakes in x's and o's but at some point players have to also be held accountable for a failure to execute. A lot of what happened in the first 2 games are execution fails on the court under pressure. That's on the players. We won a tight series vs Toronto, was he bad then? Or was it due to the players that we won and Brad when we lose?

And yes people are frustrated and think that Brad is a fail because "he keeps failing in the Finals" - on the other hand how many coaches are there that have been able to deliver a team to the ECF 3 times in the last 4 years, where the 3 teams were all different? I think back to the start of the year and what our expectations were when we lost Kyrie and Al, and Rozier, Mook and other contributors left the team. If anyone had said before that season that we would be in the ECF, 1 game down to Miami, I think we would have all taken it.

Finally, firing someone only works if there's a viable replacement. And if you listed all these (available) coaches and asked players (and coaches) across the league to rank them first to last, I'm pretty confident who ends up first. Or top 2 at the very least.

Kenny Atkinson
Brett Brown
Mike D'Antoni
Billy Donovan
Ty Lue
Brad Stevens
Stan Van Gundy

Now if you want the yellers... :angel:
« Last Edit: September 21, 2020, 04:53:34 AM by ozgod »
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: Should Brad Stevens be fired?
« Reply #199 on: September 21, 2020, 05:50:34 AM »

Offline Androslav

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Let's fire him after he wins the title, please don't do it earlier.
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Re: Should Brad Stevens be fired?
« Reply #200 on: September 21, 2020, 06:25:58 AM »

Offline 4THQTR

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Not sure if this has been posted before, but I think it’s an interesting watch and worth checking out (as is most of ThinkingBasketball’s content)

https://youtu.be/JrwKa1IkUcs

Also, there is a longer podcast from Half Court Hoops on this topic:

https://youtu.be/CnQwRYNQ_J0


Re: Should Brad Stevens be fired?
« Reply #201 on: September 21, 2020, 10:19:31 AM »

Online footey

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I started this thread, on the heels of a very frustrating game 2 loss where I felt there were some bad coaching decisions. I wrote that this thread may come back to bite me, and I truly hope it does.

Now, after just watching game 3, I'd like to say we have turned the corner, Brad has made great adjustments, etc.  Frankly I feel that Gordon's presence was one of the major differences. He just got us back into our system.  Until the 4th quarter, when we seemed to break away from it, and almost paid dearly.

I continue to be concerned with Brad's refusal to play Rob Williams any minutes.  He seems to be putting all his chips on small ball. I think Spoelstra will make an adjustment to small ball and worry that it won't work as a long term strategy (see Houston Rockets).  The Heat will figure out a way to use Bam to punish small ball.

Brad is not a bad coach. He is a really good coach.  And even if we lose this series, he won't be fired, nor should he, given his accomplishments.  But  just like the players, he is not immune from criticism.

Re: Should Brad Stevens be fired?
« Reply #202 on: September 21, 2020, 10:24:41 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Quote
Finally, firing someone only works if there's a viable replacement.

This is faulty logic. If you have someone failing at the role you hired them for you get rid of them, period. You don't allow the person to keep failing at their job, especially if they have demonstrated over a period of time they are not likely to ever improve.

There is always someone else qualified. Sometimes you may not know who the most qualified for the job is until you give them a chance but you should never resign yourself to being stuck with the person who isn't getting the job done out of fear their replacement might be worse.

I mean, let's pretend for a second Brad actually is he good at his job, how would anyone have ever known this previously, given he had never been an NBA coach before? He had to be given a chance to truly know.

Quote
Or...  this is a transparent attack on a coach because he clashed with Cry-rie.

I mean, as the sole person left here who still likes and appreciates Kyrie this was clearly directed at me. And that's fine, this type of low brow commentary is expected.  It's also wholly inaccurate.

My criticisms of Brad go all the way back to his first season here. Poor roster/minutes management, poor in-game adjustments, questionable offensive philosophy (too reliant on threes), and a lack of ability to handle large personalities. These are the same flaws he's always had and hasn't gotten any better his entire time here.

But yeah, go ahead and blame it on my affection for Kyrie, and some mythical 'clash' that never really existed between him and Brad. Kyrie primarily clashed with Jaylen and Terry, but that's about it.

I'm not out here rooting against these guys. I want all of them to improve and succeed, their individual success is crucial to the team's success. But ultimately to this point Brad, specifically, has simply been subpar and it's questionable at this point if he will ever improve on his weakness given they haven't changed in over 5 years.

But hey, as long as the team wins, whether it's in spite of Brad or because of him, it's all I really want. I will keep voicing my opinion about Brad's shortcomings until lit is no longer an issue no matter how much it irritates some of you, however.

Re: Should Brad Stevens be fired?
« Reply #203 on: September 21, 2020, 11:03:51 AM »

Online ozgod

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Quote
Finally, firing someone only works if there's a viable replacement.

This is faulty logic. If you have someone failing at the role you hired them for you get rid of them, period. You don't allow the person to keep failing at their job, especially if they have demonstrated over a period of time they are not likely to ever improve.

There is always someone else qualified. Sometimes you may not know who the most qualified for the job is until you give them a chance but you should never resign yourself to being stuck with the person who isn't getting the job done out of fear their replacement might be worse.

I mean, let's pretend for a second Brad actually is he good at his job, how would anyone have ever known this previously, given he had never been an NBA coach before? He had to be given a chance to truly know.


Respectfully, you're passing some hypotheses off as fact here. Another way to look at that is, will making a change lead to a net gain for the team? If not immediately, then over a certain period of time? I would suggest you would only fire someone if either of those two conditions are met. Otherwise, for what purpose are you getting rid of them? Sometimes teams change a coach because they want to go in a new direction, or because they think the coach has gotten as far as he has. But the trigger is usually that you're unhappy with the status quo and want to improve it. But just as you don't want to be stuck with someone because you're afraid to make a change, neither should you make a change for the sake of making a change.

You actually mentioned the main issue at hand, the hypothesis that he's failing at his job. A lot of people on this thread obviously disagree with me, maybe they have a much narrower definition of failure than I am (e.g. championship or bust), but I'm not sure that's an accurate way to describe the situation we are in, in the ECF, 2-1 down to a team that eliminated the No.1 seed in 5 games. Neither is it an accurate way to describe his overall tenure here.

There's obviously objective criteria for this, you can compare metrics such as wins, points scored, defensive efficiency, etc. If we are firing Brad for failing at his job, then we would want his replacement to improve on those metrics. He's got a pretty decent resume. He's been in the playoffs every year since his first year, and he's been in the ECF 3 of the last 4 years, with 3 different teams. I'm not sure any of the names I mentioned as alternatives, unless there are some hiding in Europe, have been able to do anything similar. The only one that really stands out is D'Antoni who had 28 playoff victories with the Rockets in his time as coach, only exceeded by Steve Kerr (43), Brad Stevens (33) and a combination of Duane Casey and Nick Nurse (31). If you review the team's year on year metrics, other than last year, the Celtics have been right up there.

Then there's all the subjective criteria...you have to evaluate fit, coaching philosophy, system, all those intangible things. I'm sure those things, along with his record of taking Butler to 2 NCAA title games, played a role in getting him the job without NBA experience. I won't get into those as everyone has a different preference for a coach. Sure if you combed the NBA and the Euroleagues and college basketball you "might" find someone who could do better, but the bar would be set pretty high for them. Say if Steve Kerr or Pop became available? Or Spoelstra? Those are guys who could probably meet that bar. Maybe Jay Williams at Villanova?

But from what I can see on the 10 pages of this thread, as scottiej said, most of the complaints seem to be due to his personality. People seem to want a fire and brimstone coach who is much more autocratic than Brad is, who will call timeout instead of letting the players play, who will yell at them if they mess up, and criticize them in the press when they make mistakes. It's a personality thing. Because on his body of work it's pretty hard to criticize, in my opinion.

Quote
But hey, as long as the team wins, whether it's in spite of Brad or because of him, it's all I really want. I will keep voicing my opinion about Brad's shortcomings until lit is no longer an issue no matter how much it irritates some of you, however.

We're all entitled to voice our opinions, no matter how irritated others may be. So keep voicing away  :police:
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: Should Brad Stevens be fired?
« Reply #204 on: September 21, 2020, 11:10:47 AM »

Online Wretch

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Not sure if this has been posted before, but I think it’s an interesting watch and worth checking out (as is most of ThinkingBasketball’s content)

https://youtu.be/JrwKa1IkUcs

Also, there is a longer podcast from Half Court Hoops on this topic:

https://youtu.be/CnQwRYNQ_J0

Take your TP

Re: Should Brad Stevens be fired?
« Reply #205 on: September 21, 2020, 11:46:30 AM »

Offline Somebody

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Not sure if this has been posted before, but I think it’s an interesting watch and worth checking out (as is most of ThinkingBasketball’s content)

https://youtu.be/JrwKa1IkUcs

Also, there is a longer podcast from Half Court Hoops on this topic:

https://youtu.be/CnQwRYNQ_J0
Glad that you think TB's content is worth looking at, unfortunately this isn't exactly a popular opinion here on this forum :laugh:

Re: Should Brad Stevens be fired?
« Reply #206 on: September 21, 2020, 11:59:39 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

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There's obviously objective criteria for this, you can compare metrics such as wins, points scored, defensive efficiency, etc. If we are firing Brad for failing at his job, then we would want his replacement to improve on those metrics. He's got a pretty decent resume. He's been in the playoffs every year since his first year, and he's been in the ECF 3 of the last 4 years, with 3 different teams. I'm not sure any of the names I mentioned as alternatives, unless there are some hiding in Europe, have been able to do anything similar. The only one that really stands out is D'Antoni who had 28 playoff victories with the Rockets in his time as coach, only exceeded by Steve Kerr (43), Brad Stevens (33) and a combination of Duane Casey and Nick Nurse (31). If you review the team's year on year metrics, other than last year, the Celtics have been right up there.

So, Ty Lue then?

This is a joke, I don't actually want Lue as the Celtics coach.  But he does have the 'resume'..... 8)

Re: Should Brad Stevens be fired?
« Reply #207 on: September 21, 2020, 02:10:06 PM »

Online ozgod

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There's obviously objective criteria for this, you can compare metrics such as wins, points scored, defensive efficiency, etc. If we are firing Brad for failing at his job, then we would want his replacement to improve on those metrics. He's got a pretty decent resume. He's been in the playoffs every year since his first year, and he's been in the ECF 3 of the last 4 years, with 3 different teams. I'm not sure any of the names I mentioned as alternatives, unless there are some hiding in Europe, have been able to do anything similar. The only one that really stands out is D'Antoni who had 28 playoff victories with the Rockets in his time as coach, only exceeded by Steve Kerr (43), Brad Stevens (33) and a combination of Duane Casey and Nick Nurse (31). If you review the team's year on year metrics, other than last year, the Celtics have been right up there.

So, Ty Lue then?

This is a joke, I don't actually want Lue as the Celtics coach.  But he does have the 'resume'..... 8)

Well, I did mention there was some subjective criteria too
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: Should Brad Stevens be fired?
« Reply #208 on: September 21, 2020, 02:11:55 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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All, I gotta say is thank god Ainge in the GM in regards to this.


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Re: Should Brad Stevens be fired?
« Reply #209 on: September 23, 2020, 11:04:03 PM »

Offline SparzWizard

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Yeah man this guy's gotta go