Author Topic: Ingram wins Most Improved  (Read 3492 times)

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Ingram wins Most Improved
« on: August 31, 2020, 06:50:51 PM »

Offline gouki88

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https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1300566006801281027

Bam got robbed! Although I think Devonte Graham should have been a finalist ahead of Doncic.

JB should have been there too
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Ingram wins Most Improved
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2020, 07:04:19 PM »

Offline liam

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https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1300566006801281027

Bam got robbed! Although I think Devonte Graham should have been a finalist ahead of Doncic.

JB should have been there too

Yeah, Ingram's team didn't even make the playoffs. I would've given it to Doncic.

Re: Ingram wins Most Improved
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2020, 07:08:56 PM »

Offline jambr380

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That is one of the most out-there awards I've seen given. How on earth was Ingram even a finalist, never mind the winner of MIP? Devonte Graham should have run away with this thing.

Re: Ingram wins Most Improved
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2020, 07:12:01 PM »

Offline gouki88

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That is one of the most out-there awards I've seen given. How on earth was Ingram even a finalist, never mind the winner of MIP? Devonte Graham should have run away with this thing.
Right? Ingram went from a 18/5/3 guy with weak defence on a losing team to a 24/6/4 guy with weak defence on a losing team.

Devonte Graham went from 5/3/1 to 18/8/3. Not even comparable
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Ingram wins Most Improved
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2020, 07:12:26 PM »

Offline liam

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That is one of the most out-there awards I've seen given. How on earth was Ingram even a finalist, never mind the winner of MIP? Devonte Graham should have run away with this thing.

You'd think that MIP would effect winning.

Re: Ingram wins Most Improved
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2020, 07:22:31 PM »

Offline RPGenerate

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From what I've seen with this award, they generally don't give it to second year players. Maybe most people think that a big jump from sophomores are mostly expected?
2023 No Top 75 Fantasy Draft Los Angeles Clippers
PG: Dennis Johnson / Jo Jo White / Stephon Marbury
SG: Sidney Moncrief / World B. Free
SF: Chris Mullin / Ron Artest
PF: Detlef Schrempf / Tom Chambers / Buck Williams
C: Ben Wallace / Andrew Bynum

Re: Ingram wins Most Improved
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2020, 07:26:39 PM »

Offline jambr380

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That is one of the most out-there awards I've seen given. How on earth was Ingram even a finalist, never mind the winner of MIP? Devonte Graham should have run away with this thing.

You'd think that MIP would effect winning.

I understand people pushing for Luka, but there was no doubt he was going to be a superstar. It would have seemed disingenuous to give it to him given the trajectory his career was obviously headed. I am not as worried about a MIP affecting winning. It's not like it's Graham's fault that the Hornets are a dumpster fire.

I understand the hesitation in giving the award to 2nd year players (like Graham and Luka - which is probably why Ingram won), but Graham had like zero NBA pedigree and he exploded out of nowhere. Had anybody even heard of Graham before this season? It's not like he was tearing it up after the All-Star break last year and we knew he was ready for prime time. He came completely out of nowhere.

Edit: RPG beat me to the 2nd year player thing - TP.

Re: Ingram wins Most Improved
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2020, 07:27:56 PM »

Offline gouki88

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From what I've seen with this award, they generally don't give it to second year players. Maybe most people think that a big jump from sophomores are mostly expected?
Might be the case, but Luka shouldn't have been a finalist regardless. He made a much more expected second year jump than Graham
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Ingram wins Most Improved
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2020, 07:35:24 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I think that Tatum improved more than Ingram did


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Re: Ingram wins Most Improved
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2020, 07:51:46 PM »

Offline gouki88

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I think that Tatum improved more than Ingram did
As did Brown, in my opinion
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Ingram wins Most Improved
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2020, 09:46:47 PM »

Offline bdm860

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That is one of the most out-there awards I've seen given. How on earth was Ingram even a finalist, never mind the winner of MIP? Devonte Graham should have run away with this thing.

You'd think that MIP would effect winning.

But you could argue Ingram did affect winning.

Pels had a higher win % than last year pre-bubble. (a team that had AD for 70% of the season).  Stepped up for a team missing Zion most of the year.   Successfully kept the team in the hunt for #8.  Personally I expected them to do worse, so I have no problem giving Ingram the credit.  Without him, how many games do they win?

I have no problem with Ingram winning.  I would guess Brown and Tatum were hurt by 2019 expectations and what they showed in the 2018 playoffs.  Especially Brown, who had a down year last year, making the improvement from last year to this year look even better, but if you smoothed out the results/expectations from 2018-2020, Tatum and Brown don't look as impressive (not hating, I love where both their games are at now, just saying).   Tatum's surge probably came too late in the season, so didn't show it for enough games, hurting him in the voting.

For Graham, in an era where everyone looks at advanced stats now, Graham's stats while still impressive, are less impressive than they first appear.  He got 20 more minutes per game which is a big driver for him.  His per36 stats went from 12/6/3.4 to 19/8/3.5, again still impressive, but not as impressive as 5/3/1 to 18/8/3 his basic stats show.

Ingram got the same minutes (but more shots, higher usage).  Improved points, rebounds, assists, steals, PER, TS%, eFG%, etc.  I think it's harder to go from 19/6/3 per36 to 25/7/4 than Grahams per36 improvement from 12/6/3.4 to 19/8/3.5.  Ingram's PER went from 13.4 to 18.8, while Graham's was 10.3 to 15.8, that's a 5 point improvement for both, but the higher you go up the harder it is to improve, making Ingram's more impressive.  Both player's shooting efficiency improved, but Ingram's improved to above the league average, while Graham is still below.

*And actually Ingram's numbers should be slightly better than I listed above, because we're not supposed to include bubble games.

Now I'm not saying I would have picked Ingram personally, but no outrage from where I'm sitting.  All in all, I think a lot of guys are worthy.  Can't go wrong with any of them.  And to me, this is such a minor award (along with 6MOY), no big deal no matter who they choose.  Of course would have been nice if Tatum or Brown won, or even Hayward.

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Re: Ingram wins Most Improved
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2020, 10:15:55 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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Fair enough. Whenever a star player leaves the Lakers, they are automatically greatly improved  ;D

Re: Ingram wins Most Improved
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2020, 10:19:56 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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big deal.

he went from fair to average "......meh

Re: Ingram wins Most Improved
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2020, 12:13:19 AM »

Offline footey

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Probably the dumbest award of the year.

Yawn.

Re: Ingram wins Most Improved
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2020, 01:57:08 AM »

Offline liam

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That is one of the most out-there awards I've seen given. How on earth was Ingram even a finalist, never mind the winner of MIP? Devonte Graham should have run away with this thing.

You'd think that MIP would effect winning.

But you could argue Ingram did affect winning.

Pels had a higher win % than last year pre-bubble. (a team that had AD for 70% of the season).  Stepped up for a team missing Zion most of the year.   Successfully kept the team in the hunt for #8.  Personally I expected them to do worse, so I have no problem giving Ingram the credit.  Without him, how many games do they win?

I have no problem with Ingram winning.  I would guess Brown and Tatum were hurt by 2019 expectations and what they showed in the 2018 playoffs.  Especially Brown, who had a down year last year, making the improvement from last year to this year look even better, but if you smoothed out the results/expectations from 2018-2020, Tatum and Brown don't look as impressive (not hating, I love where both their games are at now, just saying).   Tatum's surge probably came too late in the season, so didn't show it for enough games, hurting him in the voting.

For Graham, in an era where everyone looks at advanced stats now, Graham's stats while still impressive, are less impressive than they first appear.  He got 20 more minutes per game which is a big driver for him.  His per36 stats went from 12/6/3.4 to 19/8/3.5, again still impressive, but not as impressive as 5/3/1 to 18/8/3 his basic stats show.

Ingram got the same minutes (but more shots, higher usage).  Improved points, rebounds, assists, steals, PER, TS%, eFG%, etc.  I think it's harder to go from 19/6/3 per36 to 25/7/4 than Grahams per36 improvement from 12/6/3.4 to 19/8/3.5.  Ingram's PER went from 13.4 to 18.8, while Graham's was 10.3 to 15.8, that's a 5 point improvement for both, but the higher you go up the harder it is to improve, making Ingram's more impressive.  Both player's shooting efficiency improved, but Ingram's improved to above the league average, while Graham is still below.

*And actually Ingram's numbers should be slightly better than I listed above, because we're not supposed to include bubble games.

Now I'm not saying I would have picked Ingram personally, but no outrage from where I'm sitting.  All in all, I think a lot of guys are worthy.  Can't go wrong with any of them.  And to me, this is such a minor award (along with 6MOY), no big deal no matter who they choose.  Of course would have been nice if Tatum or Brown won, or even Hayward.

I have no outrage either but I don't think that Ingram improved more than other players.