Author Topic: Last year's roster had a lot more talent  (Read 2000 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Last year's roster had a lot more talent
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2020, 08:48:28 AM »

Offline Somebody

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5418
  • Tommy Points: 360
  • KANSEI DORIFUTO
We're looking at a duo with the potential to be Kobe (Tatum) and Josh Howard (Brown) like players.

Gouki, I agree with most of your post, but, geez, saying Brown has the potential to one day be as good as Josh Howard is going to turn a lot of heads.
In the sense that Josh Howard is a great or bad scenario for him? I think it's pretty poor :laugh:
Rockets PG: Westbrook, Rivers, Clemons SG: Harden, Gordon, McLemore
SF: House, Carroll, Caboclo PF: Covington, Green, Williams
C: Tucker, Hartenstein, Bender
Warriors PG: Curry, Jackson, Bowman SG: Thompson, Lee, Poole
SF: Wiggins, Okoro, Anderson PF: Green, Paschall, MKG
C: Looney, Chriss, Smiley

Re: Last year's roster had a lot more talent
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2020, 09:01:10 AM »

Offline footey

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11124
  • Tommy Points: 1405
First of all I really like the top 6 of our current roster in the order of Tatum, Walker, Hayward, Brown, Smart and Theis. Also Kanter is a worthy rotation player. But after that the roster is incredibly weak. Of all the playoff teams the Celtics may have the least depth of all of them. This in contrast to last year, when players were fighting for minutes.


And this is what undid us last year. If it was like NBA2k where there's no chemistry issues we would probably have made the finals last year. But last year showed us that the team needs to be a whole that is greater than the sum of the parts. You can have a team that's too talented, especially if those players are unwilling to take lesser roles for the good of the team. Since you're from Europe, you'll probably know of the issues Real Madrid had with too many Zidanes and not enough Makeleles. That was pretty much our issue last year.

You're right about Real ;D

Nonetheless last year's roster was balanced in terms of talent (enough playmaking, scoring, shooting, defense, rebounding), it was more about personalities, roles and chemistry. I don't think anybody saw the big problems coming when Irving made his false promise that he would re-sign in Boston if we wanted him. I have been critical on Ainge, but I don't fault him for the roster he built at that time (I do find he should've reacted when it turned out things weren't working, instead of just letting the train crash).

So while I believe that Ainge provided the coaching staff with an excellent roster last year, now it's more of a tweener. There's top end talent and players who are peaking (examples: Walker and Hayward), while the rest is very young and inexperienced and don't provide the depth like championship favourites as the Bucks, Clippers, Raptors or Lakers (Lakers now missing a couple rotation players will hurt them too) have.

Not really sure what the plan is. They had to do something with the cap space they had (under the assumption that rookie-contract extensions for Brown and Tatum would not give short-term future opportunities for that) and signing an All Star PG in Walker can't be bad, but that is a signal of a win-now-move while all the rookie-deals and the reluctance to trade picks for immediate help indicate the opposite.

The roster the Celtics have is good enough to be competitive, but in my opinion it lacks the depth to be a real contender.
Is it wise to not fully commit to Walker, Smart, Brown, Tatum, Hayward, Theis and Kanter?
Or is it reasonable to expect that a future with Waters(?), Smart, Langford, Brown, Tatum, G.Williams, R.Williams + Memphis pick may be even brigther?

Edit: we have 6 (more than) playoff-resistant players, but Kanter can be a huge defensive liability as the 7th guy in the Celtics system and while nr 8 or nr 9 in the rotation won't get many minutes they can significantly hurt you (for instance: if 10 minutes of both Wanamaker and G.Williams costs you 2 points a game, then over a whole 7-game-series that's 14 points). In the quite succesful playoff-run of 2018 we beat the Bucks 4-3 (total points: 717-713) and the 76ers 4-1 (total points: 532-517), thus such small gains or drop-offs in the rotation can really affect our winning chances.

Unless Robert Williams becomes a reliable defensive anchor I see second round exit as our ceiling. Indiana without Sabonis should be a doable match-up, but I would be worried to play the 76ers in the first round
[/b][/u]

Completely agree. 

Re: Last year's roster had a lot more talent
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2020, 09:20:55 AM »

Offline jambr380

  • Danny Ainge
  • **********
  • Posts: 10136
  • Tommy Points: 1261
  • Sometimes there's no sane reason for optimism
We're looking at a duo with the potential to be Kobe (Tatum) and Josh Howard (Brown) like players.

Gouki, I agree with most of your post, but, geez, saying Brown has the potential to one day be as good as Josh Howard is going to turn a lot of heads.
In the sense that Josh Howard is a great or bad scenario for him? I think it's pretty poor :laugh:

Yikes, didn't know I needed to clarify myself here. While Josh Howard had a couple solid years in the mid-2000s (I don't know how he made an all-star team), I would say Jaylen is easily already at his peak and would have to retire after this season to not reach the heights of the amazing Josh Howard  ;)

I definitely have greater hopes for Jaylen moving forward. Josh Howard certainly can't be his ceiling, right?

Re: Last year's roster had a lot more talent
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2020, 09:44:40 AM »

Offline Somebody

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5418
  • Tommy Points: 360
  • KANSEI DORIFUTO
We're looking at a duo with the potential to be Kobe (Tatum) and Josh Howard (Brown) like players.

Gouki, I agree with most of your post, but, geez, saying Brown has the potential to one day be as good as Josh Howard is going to turn a lot of heads.
In the sense that Josh Howard is a great or bad scenario for him? I think it's pretty poor :laugh:

Yikes, didn't know I needed to clarify myself here. While Josh Howard had a couple solid years in the mid-2000s (I don't know how he made an all-star team), I would say Jaylen is easily already at his peak and would have to retire after this season to not reach the heights of the amazing Josh Howard  ;)

I definitely have greater hopes for Jaylen moving forward. Josh Howard certainly can't be his ceiling, right?
Josh Howard actually made an All-Star team in the mid-00s and iirc had a couple of strong +/- years to go along with solid box portfolios and decent evaluations from the scouting report so I wasn't too sure.
Rockets PG: Westbrook, Rivers, Clemons SG: Harden, Gordon, McLemore
SF: House, Carroll, Caboclo PF: Covington, Green, Williams
C: Tucker, Hartenstein, Bender
Warriors PG: Curry, Jackson, Bowman SG: Thompson, Lee, Poole
SF: Wiggins, Okoro, Anderson PF: Green, Paschall, MKG
C: Looney, Chriss, Smiley

Re: Last year's roster had a lot more talent
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2020, 09:47:47 AM »

Offline Redz

  • Punner
  • Global Moderator
  • Larry Bird
  • *****************************
  • Posts: 29101
  • Tommy Points: 3564
  • Yup
We're looking at a duo with the potential to be Kobe (Tatum) and Josh Howard (Brown) like players.

Gouki, I agree with most of your post, but, geez, saying Brown has the potential to one day be as good as Josh Howard is going to turn a lot of heads.
In the sense that Josh Howard is a great or bad scenario for him? I think it's pretty poor :laugh:

Yikes, didn't know I needed to clarify myself here. While Josh Howard had a couple solid years in the mid-2000s (I don't know how he made an all-star team), I would say Jaylen is easily already at his peak and would have to retire after this season to not reach the heights of the amazing Josh Howard  ;)

I definitely have greater hopes for Jaylen moving forward. Josh Howard certainly can't be his ceiling, right?

He is 37th ALL TIME in career turnover percentage.
Yup

Re: Last year's roster had a lot more talent
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2020, 10:04:34 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

  • Cedric Maxwell
  • **************
  • Posts: 14628
  • Tommy Points: 2683
...but a LOT more problems.

Leave to Coach Brad Stevens to do MORE with LESS - this year.

I love our roster right now. There "IS" less talent but MORE opportunity for people to step up.
Augustus Freeman IV - the Superman of the South. Read Milestone Comics.

Good Trouble.

Re: Last year's roster had a lot more talent
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2020, 10:28:06 AM »

Offline gouki88

  • Global Moderator
  • K.C. Jones
  • *************
  • Posts: 13950
  • Tommy Points: 796
  • 2019 CS Historical Draft Champion
We're looking at a duo with the potential to be Kobe (Tatum) and Josh Howard (Brown) like players.

Gouki, I agree with most of your post, but, geez, saying Brown has the potential to one day be as good as Josh Howard is going to turn a lot of heads.
In the sense that Josh Howard is a great or bad scenario for him? I think it's pretty poor :laugh:

Yikes, didn't know I needed to clarify myself here. While Josh Howard had a couple solid years in the mid-2000s (I don't know how he made an all-star team), I would say Jaylen is easily already at his peak and would have to retire after this season to not reach the heights of the amazing Josh Howard  ;)

I definitely have greater hopes for Jaylen moving forward. Josh Howard certainly can't be his ceiling, right?
Josh Howard actually made an All-Star team in the mid-00s and iirc had a couple of strong +/- years to go along with solid box portfolios and decent evaluations from the scouting report so I wasn't too sure.
He was also the #2 player on a 67 win team at his peak, which is more where the comparison comes from. I do think heíll certainly eclipse Howard though - especially on offence. I can see Brown putting up a few more PPG as his arsenal continues to develop, but I expect / hope big strides in his passing, a path heís already begun.

Re: Last year's roster had a lot more talent
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2020, 10:49:29 AM »

Offline Monkhouse

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6932
  • Tommy Points: 814
  • A true Celtic plays with heart.
We're looking at a duo with the potential to be Kobe (Tatum) and Josh Howard (Brown) like players.

Gouki, I agree with most of your post, but, geez, saying Brown has the potential to one day be as good as Josh Howard is going to turn a lot of heads.

Brown already has posted higher career numbers, better shooter, way better athletic ability, and clearly has more potential than Howard.
"I bomb atomically, Socrates' philosophies and hypotheses
Can't define how I be dropping these mockeries."

Is the glass half-full or half-empty?
It's based on your perspective, quite simply
We're the same and we're not; know what I'm saying? Listen
Son, I ain't better than you, I just think different

Re: Last year's roster had a lot more talent
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2020, 01:15:22 PM »

Offline Surferdad

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11327
  • Tommy Points: 773
  • "He fiddles...and diddles..."
...but a LOT more problems.

Leave to Coach Brad Stevens to do MORE with LESS - this year.

I love our roster right now. There "IS" less talent but MORE opportunity for people to step up.

Yes, I too agree with the OP.  Horford, Baynes, Morris, Rozier...

The real question is, so what?  They were not a better team.

Re: Last year's roster had a lot more talent
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2020, 01:28:49 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4213
  • Tommy Points: 630
We're looking at a duo with the potential to be Kobe (Tatum) and Josh Howard (Brown) like players.

Gouki, I agree with most of your post, but, geez, saying Brown has the potential to one day be as good as Josh Howard is going to turn a lot of heads.

Brown already has posted higher career numbers, better shooter, way better athletic ability, and clearly has more potential than Howard.

That's true. Better defender too.

Josh Howard had this alluring potential to his game as a play-maker on the wing which started to be realized that one awesome season. He was a special player who came out of no where a bit that season, but sometimes people remember him a bit more than he actually was. He was a Jason Richardson or Joe Johnson or Stephen Jackson type player. He was offensively focused, but couldn't be the center of a high-level offense. He couldn't really go toe-to-toe with the best wings in the league, but he was a legitimate fringe all-star.

Jaylen Brown has already got to that level. He's probably not quite the playmaker that Howard was, but he is a better scorer in multiple ways. He is also a much better defender that Howard ever was. On top of that, he has the ability to raise his game (and often does) to higher heights than Howard ever did in big games.

Re: Last year's roster had a lot more talent
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2020, 06:07:42 PM »

Offline gouki88

  • Global Moderator
  • K.C. Jones
  • *************
  • Posts: 13950
  • Tommy Points: 796
  • 2019 CS Historical Draft Champion
Hah, my rusher Josh Howard comparison clearly did miss the mark. My bad.

I was initially going to go with a James Worthy comparison, but thought two Lakersí ones would send people (rightfully) mad

Re: Last year's roster had a lot more talent
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2020, 10:56:40 AM »

Offline footey

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11124
  • Tommy Points: 1405
Hah, my rusher Josh Howard comparison clearly did miss the mark. My bad.

I was initially going to go with a James Worthy comparison, but thought two Lakersí ones would send people (rightfully) mad

I think Brown plays more like Kobe than Tatum does. I don't think Brown will get to Kobe's level, but his skill set is increasingly looking more and more like Kobe. 

Tatum reminds me of Grant Hill when he was healthy. He was a heckuva a player before he got injured.

Re: Last year's roster had a lot more talent
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2020, 05:48:28 PM »

Offline gouki88

  • Global Moderator
  • K.C. Jones
  • *************
  • Posts: 13950
  • Tommy Points: 796
  • 2019 CS Historical Draft Champion
Hah, my rusher Josh Howard comparison clearly did miss the mark. My bad.

I was initially going to go with a James Worthy comparison, but thought two Lakersí ones would send people (rightfully) mad

I think Brown plays more like Kobe than Tatum does. I don't think Brown will get to Kobe's level, but his skill set is increasingly looking more and more like Kobe. 

Tatum reminds me of Grant Hill when he was healthy. He was a heckuva a player before he got injured.
My memory of Grant Hill as a star is one of an almost point-forward who drew heaps of fouls and had great athleticism - a LeBron-lite. Is that Tatum? I donít know if I see it

Re: Last year's roster had a lot more talent
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2020, 07:01:42 PM »

Offline GreenEnvy

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4032
  • Tommy Points: 987
Last season may have had better 1-on-1 talent, but this is a better team. Kemba is way more team-oriented than Kyrie is, even if he is (slightly) less talented. 2020 Tatum and Brown are much better than their 2019 versions. 2020 Hayward is head and shoulders above his 2019 self, and quite frankly more impactful than Horford was last season.

Theis has played quite well despite his limitations, and hopefully Kanter can contribute with his offensive repertoire.

Rozier was pretty awful in 2019. I'll take Wanamaker over him for spot minutes (but 2020 Smart is a big upgrade over TR3).

There were too many egos on last season's squad. I'd rather see Kemba/Smart/Brown/Hayward/Tatum get 36-40 minutes each than have to find a way to get Irving/Rozier/Brown/Smart/Hayward/Tatum/Morris all adequate minutes so they didn't pout.

2019 was one of the least enjoyable Celtics seasons I can recall. We definitely have seen worse teams over the years, but they didn't even look like they were having fun. They may have worn the same uniform, but they weren't a team. I put a lot of blame on Brad (and Horford), but seeing the camaraderie this season makes it pretty clear the problem was Irving, Rozier, and Morris.
I AM A CELTIC

Re: Last year's roster had a lot more talent
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2020, 07:05:45 PM »

Offline footey

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11124
  • Tommy Points: 1405
Hah, my rusher Josh Howard comparison clearly did miss the mark. My bad.

I was initially going to go with a James Worthy comparison, but thought two Lakersí ones would send people (rightfully) mad

I think Brown plays more like Kobe than Tatum does. I don't think Brown will get to Kobe's level, but his skill set is increasingly looking more and more like Kobe. 

Tatum reminds me of Grant Hill when he was healthy. He was a heckuva a player before he got injured.
My memory of Grant Hill as a star is one of an almost point-forward who drew heaps of fouls and had great athleticism - a LeBron-lite. Is that Tatum? I donít know if I see it

Yeah you may be right about that, I need to go back and look at the tape.

But think more about the Kobe comparison. I see Brown's development looking more like the way Kobe played, especially how he creates space in the midrange. Tatum not so much. At least not yet.