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Re: Celtics Orlando Updates
« Reply #210 on: July 24, 2020, 03:54:23 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

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Re: the KG/Duncan vs Giannis debate, I don't think it's really fair to use accolades when we're talking about their peak seasons - accolades aren't all that reliable in approximating player "goodness" and they aren't created equal. For example, Moses' 79 MVP (yes I'm probably beating a dead horse at this point, but it's a really good example imo) isn't very reliable when it comes to evaluating his impact that season and definitely isn't equal to say the MVPs of Duncan and Garnett in the 2000s where they had to compete with each other at the peak of their powers (their peak years roughly overlapped in that 02-04 stretch).

I think Giannis is already there offensively - he's definitely better than peak Duncan (he's just flat out a better floor raiser) and has a good argument against Garnett on that end of the floor. What he lacks against the two is defence - he's not the rotation machine that KG/Duncan were due to holes in his defensive awareness (eg. gobbles up everything in front of him, but doesn't know where everyone is) and his defensive playmaking as a "sweeper" lags behind the two (Garnett and Duncan had better stock rates at their very best compared to 2019 and 2020 Giannis). He definitely deserves his DPOY this season (he's one of the best defenders in the league right now), but he's still a tier or two below KG/Duncan on that end and that separates them from him (I see the defensive gap being larger than their offensive disparity).

Ya i disagree, i don't think he's quite as good as those guys defensively but I dont think he's that far behind. And honestly, he plays in an era where defense is a lot harder than during Duncan or KG's prime due to more spaced floors, no hand checking, ect.

I think the difference between him and KG/Duncan is pretty substantial offensively, you can build an entire offense around Giannis which just wasn't true of Duncan or KG as good as they were. I think thats a pretty substantial factor.

But all that said I think this is a thread on Celtics Orlando updates so we are probably getting off track.

Man, honestly... That's your opinion, but I'll flat out disagree with all of those points.

Tim Duncan was consistent with the rings to back it up.

5 Championships, 15 time All NBA, 15 time All NBA Defensive.

Tim Duncan was just a wonder of consistency, excellence and longevity. Not to mention he was all class, never bridled with adversity. A player every coach dreamed of coaching.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2020, 04:03:37 PM by Monkhouse »
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Re: Celtics Orlando Updates
« Reply #211 on: July 24, 2020, 04:11:11 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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Re: the KG/Duncan vs Giannis debate, I don't think it's really fair to use accolades when we're talking about their peak seasons - accolades aren't all that reliable in approximating player "goodness" and they aren't created equal. For example, Moses' 79 MVP (yes I'm probably beating a dead horse at this point, but it's a really good example imo) isn't very reliable when it comes to evaluating his impact that season and definitely isn't equal to say the MVPs of Duncan and Garnett in the 2000s where they had to compete with each other at the peak of their powers (their peak years roughly overlapped in that 02-04 stretch).

I think Giannis is already there offensively - he's definitely better than peak Duncan (he's just flat out a better floor raiser) and has a good argument against Garnett on that end of the floor. What he lacks against the two is defence - he's not the rotation machine that KG/Duncan were due to holes in his defensive awareness (eg. gobbles up everything in front of him, but doesn't know where everyone is) and his defensive playmaking as a "sweeper" lags behind the two (Garnett and Duncan had better stock rates at their very best compared to 2019 and 2020 Giannis). He definitely deserves his DPOY this season (he's one of the best defenders in the league right now), but he's still a tier or two below KG/Duncan on that end and that separates them from him (I see the defensive gap being larger than their offensive disparity).

Ya i disagree, i don't think he's quite as good as those guys defensively but I dont think he's that far behind. And honestly, he plays in an era where defense is a lot harder than during Duncan or KG's prime due to more spaced floors, no hand checking, ect.

I think the difference between him and KG/Duncan is pretty substantial offensively, you can build an entire offense around Giannis which just wasn't true of Duncan or KG as good as they were. I think thats a pretty substantial factor.

But all that said I think this is a thread on Celtics Orlando updates so we are probably getting off track.

Man, honestly... That's your opinion, but I'll flat out disagree with all of those points.

Tim Duncan was consistent with the rings to back it up.

5 Championships, 15 time All NBA, 15 time All NBA Defensive.

Tim Duncan was just a wonder of consistency, excellence and longevity. Not to mention he was all class, never bridled with adversity. A player every coach dreamed of coaching.

To each his own man, and to be clear I mean no disrespect to Duncan. Dude as an all time great.

Re: Celtics Orlando Updates
« Reply #212 on: July 24, 2020, 04:13:22 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

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Re: the KG/Duncan vs Giannis debate, I don't think it's really fair to use accolades when we're talking about their peak seasons - accolades aren't all that reliable in approximating player "goodness" and they aren't created equal. For example, Moses' 79 MVP (yes I'm probably beating a dead horse at this point, but it's a really good example imo) isn't very reliable when it comes to evaluating his impact that season and definitely isn't equal to say the MVPs of Duncan and Garnett in the 2000s where they had to compete with each other at the peak of their powers (their peak years roughly overlapped in that 02-04 stretch).

I think Giannis is already there offensively - he's definitely better than peak Duncan (he's just flat out a better floor raiser) and has a good argument against Garnett on that end of the floor. What he lacks against the two is defence - he's not the rotation machine that KG/Duncan were due to holes in his defensive awareness (eg. gobbles up everything in front of him, but doesn't know where everyone is) and his defensive playmaking as a "sweeper" lags behind the two (Garnett and Duncan had better stock rates at their very best compared to 2019 and 2020 Giannis). He definitely deserves his DPOY this season (he's one of the best defenders in the league right now), but he's still a tier or two below KG/Duncan on that end and that separates them from him (I see the defensive gap being larger than their offensive disparity).

Ya i disagree, i don't think he's quite as good as those guys defensively but I dont think he's that far behind. And honestly, he plays in an era where defense is a lot harder than during Duncan or KG's prime due to more spaced floors, no hand checking, ect.

I think the difference between him and KG/Duncan is pretty substantial offensively, you can build an entire offense around Giannis which just wasn't true of Duncan or KG as good as they were. I think thats a pretty substantial factor.

But all that said I think this is a thread on Celtics Orlando updates so we are probably getting off track.

Man, honestly... That's your opinion, but I'll flat out disagree with all of those points.

Tim Duncan was consistent with the rings to back it up.

5 Championships, 15 time All NBA, 15 time All NBA Defensive.

Tim Duncan was just a wonder of consistency, excellence and longevity. Not to mention he was all class, never bridled with adversity. A player every coach dreamed of coaching.

To each his own man, and to be clear I mean no disrespect to Duncan. Dude as an all time great.

That's fair, I still think Giannis is a little further away from being better than Duncan on offense.

He's on the right path though.
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Re: Celtics Orlando Updates
« Reply #213 on: July 24, 2020, 04:19:28 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

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Am I the only one who is still in amazement at LeBron being the first person in NBA history to average 40K/10K/10K by possibly the end of next season?

Hate him all you want, but he is definitely one of the GOAT for sure.
"I bomb atomically, Socrates' philosophies and hypotheses
Can't define how I be dropping these mockeries."

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Re: Celtics Orlando Updates
« Reply #214 on: July 24, 2020, 08:00:50 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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Am I the only one who is still in amazement at LeBron being the first person in NBA history to average 40K/10K/10K by possibly the end of next season?

Hate him all you want, but he is definitely one of the GOAT for sure.

Wow i would think a guy AVERAGING 40,000, 10,000, 10,000 would the MVP.

Re: Celtics Orlando Updates
« Reply #215 on: July 24, 2020, 08:51:19 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

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Am I the only one who is still in amazement at LeBron being the first person in NBA history to average 40K/10K/10K by possibly the end of next season?

Hate him all you want, but he is definitely one of the GOAT for sure.

Wow i would think a guy AVERAGING 40,000, 10,000, 10,000 would the MVP.



It was a mistake  ;D

DANG IT, FOILED AGAIN!
"I bomb atomically, Socrates' philosophies and hypotheses
Can't define how I be dropping these mockeries."

Is the glass half-full or half-empty?
It's based on your perspective, quite simply
We're the same and we're not; know what I'm saying? Listen
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Re: Celtics Orlando Updates
« Reply #216 on: July 25, 2020, 05:11:52 AM »

Offline Somebody

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Re: the KG/Duncan vs Giannis debate, I don't think it's really fair to use accolades when we're talking about their peak seasons - accolades aren't all that reliable in approximating player "goodness" and they aren't created equal. For example, Moses' 79 MVP (yes I'm probably beating a dead horse at this point, but it's a really good example imo) isn't very reliable when it comes to evaluating his impact that season and definitely isn't equal to say the MVPs of Duncan and Garnett in the 2000s where they had to compete with each other at the peak of their powers (their peak years roughly overlapped in that 02-04 stretch).

I think Giannis is already there offensively - he's definitely better than peak Duncan (he's just flat out a better floor raiser) and has a good argument against Garnett on that end of the floor. What he lacks against the two is defence - he's not the rotation machine that KG/Duncan were due to holes in his defensive awareness (eg. gobbles up everything in front of him, but doesn't know where everyone is) and his defensive playmaking as a "sweeper" lags behind the two (Garnett and Duncan had better stock rates at their very best compared to 2019 and 2020 Giannis). He definitely deserves his DPOY this season (he's one of the best defenders in the league right now), but he's still a tier or two below KG/Duncan on that end and that separates them from him (I see the defensive gap being larger than their offensive disparity).

Ya i disagree, i don't think he's quite as good as those guys defensively but I dont think he's that far behind. And honestly, he plays in an era where defense is a lot harder than during Duncan or KG's prime due to more spaced floors, no hand checking, ect.

I think the difference between him and KG/Duncan is pretty substantial offensively, you can build an entire offense around Giannis which just wasn't true of Duncan or KG as good as they were. I think thats a pretty substantial factor.

But all that said I think this is a thread on Celtics Orlando updates so we are probably getting off track.
I think he's at least a rung down from those two defensively - his drawbacks on tape and statistical results (with some normalised for era differences like team rDRTG) don't quite paint him as a top 10 defender of all time even when you account for the differences between the early aughts and the modern game (although Garnett and Duncan had some great defensive years after the implementation of those rules that imo were as good as if not better than 2020 Giannis).

Also don't quite think that there's a huge difference between Giannis and the two offensively - Garnett and Duncan had similar team offensive results as Giannis in their primes, and I think it translates to a slight advantage with how poor his floor raising fits next to other on-ball talent (Duncan has the same issue but less so imo with his offensive rebounding) after accounting for how the modern era makes offence easier for players who can collapse defences with his scoring and take advantage of that with his playmaking. I feel that Giannis will eventually separate himself from the two offensively as he ages and gets more polished ala Karl Malone, but he's not there yet.
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Re: Celtics Orlando Updates
« Reply #217 on: July 25, 2020, 10:35:02 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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Re: the KG/Duncan vs Giannis debate, I don't think it's really fair to use accolades when we're talking about their peak seasons - accolades aren't all that reliable in approximating player "goodness" and they aren't created equal. For example, Moses' 79 MVP (yes I'm probably beating a dead horse at this point, but it's a really good example imo) isn't very reliable when it comes to evaluating his impact that season and definitely isn't equal to say the MVPs of Duncan and Garnett in the 2000s where they had to compete with each other at the peak of their powers (their peak years roughly overlapped in that 02-04 stretch).

I think Giannis is already there offensively - he's definitely better than peak Duncan (he's just flat out a better floor raiser) and has a good argument against Garnett on that end of the floor. What he lacks against the two is defence - he's not the rotation machine that KG/Duncan were due to holes in his defensive awareness (eg. gobbles up everything in front of him, but doesn't know where everyone is) and his defensive playmaking as a "sweeper" lags behind the two (Garnett and Duncan had better stock rates at their very best compared to 2019 and 2020 Giannis). He definitely deserves his DPOY this season (he's one of the best defenders in the league right now), but he's still a tier or two below KG/Duncan on that end and that separates them from him (I see the defensive gap being larger than their offensive disparity).

Ya i disagree, i don't think he's quite as good as those guys defensively but I dont think he's that far behind. And honestly, he plays in an era where defense is a lot harder than during Duncan or KG's prime due to more spaced floors, no hand checking, ect.

I think the difference between him and KG/Duncan is pretty substantial offensively, you can build an entire offense around Giannis which just wasn't true of Duncan or KG as good as they were. I think thats a pretty substantial factor.

But all that said I think this is a thread on Celtics Orlando updates so we are probably getting off track.
I think he's at least a rung down from those two defensively - his drawbacks on tape and statistical results (with some normalised for era differences like team rDRTG) don't quite paint him as a top 10 defender of all time even when you account for the differences between the early aughts and the modern game (although Garnett and Duncan had some great defensive years after the implementation of those rules that imo were as good as if not better than 2020 Giannis).

Also don't quite think that there's a huge difference between Giannis and the two offensively - Garnett and Duncan had similar team offensive results as Giannis in their primes, and I think it translates to a slight advantage with how poor his floor raising fits next to other on-ball talent (Duncan has the same issue but less so imo with his offensive rebounding) after accounting for how the modern era makes offence easier for players who can collapse defences with his scoring and take advantage of that with his playmaking. I feel that Giannis will eventually separate himself from the two offensively as he ages and gets more polished ala Karl Malone, but he's not there yet.

Ya I just cant agree with this, Giannis is an engine for his teams in a way Duncan and Garnett just never were. Tim Duncan's highest usage season? 29.7. Giannis was 37.4 this year! Giannis with a 7.4 BPM on offense this year, Duncan was never over 5.4. Giannis this year 34.9 Asst %, Duncan as never over 19.5. Giannis has a .608 TS% this year, Duncan never over 57.9% (although average TS has risen since Duncans day). Like there is a substantial gap between what Giannis did on offense this year, and the best season Duncan had on offense. The comparison for Garnett is  a little closer during his absolute peak in the early 2000's, but Giannis was more efficient on a higher usage with a higher assist %.

And i still think there's a smaller gap defensively than you are admitting. I mean he is literally one of the single most versatile defenders in  the entire league with a similar statistical defensive profile this year to peak Duncan /Garnett years. High steal percentage than Duncan, higher block % than Garnett. Higher peak DBPM than eitehr one. Higher peak RBD % than either one.

Again this isnt a "who is better all time argument" because that would be absurd given where Giannis is in his career. But examining just their peaks at 25 Giannis is better offensively than Garnett or Duncan ever were. Defensively I'm more receptive to arguments. This may not even be Giannis's peak yet.

In any event its at least an argument.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2020, 10:50:56 PM by keevsnick »

Re: Celtics Orlando Updates
« Reply #218 on: July 26, 2020, 06:58:40 AM »

Offline Somebody

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Re: the KG/Duncan vs Giannis debate, I don't think it's really fair to use accolades when we're talking about their peak seasons - accolades aren't all that reliable in approximating player "goodness" and they aren't created equal. For example, Moses' 79 MVP (yes I'm probably beating a dead horse at this point, but it's a really good example imo) isn't very reliable when it comes to evaluating his impact that season and definitely isn't equal to say the MVPs of Duncan and Garnett in the 2000s where they had to compete with each other at the peak of their powers (their peak years roughly overlapped in that 02-04 stretch).

I think Giannis is already there offensively - he's definitely better than peak Duncan (he's just flat out a better floor raiser) and has a good argument against Garnett on that end of the floor. What he lacks against the two is defence - he's not the rotation machine that KG/Duncan were due to holes in his defensive awareness (eg. gobbles up everything in front of him, but doesn't know where everyone is) and his defensive playmaking as a "sweeper" lags behind the two (Garnett and Duncan had better stock rates at their very best compared to 2019 and 2020 Giannis). He definitely deserves his DPOY this season (he's one of the best defenders in the league right now), but he's still a tier or two below KG/Duncan on that end and that separates them from him (I see the defensive gap being larger than their offensive disparity).

Ya i disagree, i don't think he's quite as good as those guys defensively but I dont think he's that far behind. And honestly, he plays in an era where defense is a lot harder than during Duncan or KG's prime due to more spaced floors, no hand checking, ect.

I think the difference between him and KG/Duncan is pretty substantial offensively, you can build an entire offense around Giannis which just wasn't true of Duncan or KG as good as they were. I think thats a pretty substantial factor.

But all that said I think this is a thread on Celtics Orlando updates so we are probably getting off track.
I think he's at least a rung down from those two defensively - his drawbacks on tape and statistical results (with some normalised for era differences like team rDRTG) don't quite paint him as a top 10 defender of all time even when you account for the differences between the early aughts and the modern game (although Garnett and Duncan had some great defensive years after the implementation of those rules that imo were as good as if not better than 2020 Giannis).

Also don't quite think that there's a huge difference between Giannis and the two offensively - Garnett and Duncan had similar team offensive results as Giannis in their primes, and I think it translates to a slight advantage with how poor his floor raising fits next to other on-ball talent (Duncan has the same issue but less so imo with his offensive rebounding) after accounting for how the modern era makes offence easier for players who can collapse defences with his scoring and take advantage of that with his playmaking. I feel that Giannis will eventually separate himself from the two offensively as he ages and gets more polished ala Karl Malone, but he's not there yet.

Ya I just cant agree with this, Giannis is an engine for his teams in a way Duncan and Garnett just never were. Tim Duncan's highest usage season? 29.7. Giannis was 37.4 this year! Giannis with a 7.4 BPM on offense this year, Duncan was never over 5.4. Giannis this year 34.9 Asst %, Duncan as never over 19.5. Giannis has a .608 TS% this year, Duncan never over 57.9% (although average TS has risen since Duncans day). Like there is a substantial gap between what Giannis did on offense this year, and the best season Duncan had on offense. The comparison for Garnett is  a little closer during his absolute peak in the early 2000's, but Giannis was more efficient on a higher usage with a higher assist %.

And i still think there's a smaller gap defensively than you are admitting. I mean he is literally one of the single most versatile defenders in  the entire league with a similar statistical defensive profile this year to peak Duncan /Garnett years. High steal percentage than Duncan, higher block % than Garnett. Higher peak DBPM than eitehr one. Higher peak RBD % than either one.

Again this isnt a "who is better all time argument" because that would be absurd given where Giannis is in his career. But examining just their peaks at 25 Giannis is better offensively than Garnett or Duncan ever were. Defensively I'm more receptive to arguments. This may not even be Giannis's peak yet.

In any event its at least an argument.
Usage rate is a very poor metric to measure offensive load though, it only measures how much a player shoots or turns the ball over instead of how much a player actually drives and runs an offence, the latter which includes creation (how much does a player warp a defence and create open looks for teammates) and passing. Giannis having a higher usage rate than Duncan or Garnett says nothing about his offensive load compared to the two, it only shows that he's much more profligate at chucking up shots and/or turning the ball over. Hence I would advise against using BPM as a one number metric to say a player is better than the other offensively, the stat is quite biased towards big time scorers due to its usage of usage rate in its calculations :laugh: (eg. Russell Westbrook has a 8.7 peak OBPM that is higher than Magic's best at 8.3, but Magic is an offensive GOAT candidate while Westbrook is nowhere close to that level). To me you're just taking a selective number of stats at face value instead of trying to see what those metrics measure and trying to compensate for their weaknesses with context (eg. the situation of the league, how did the games of the players form those statistical portfolios, team situation, etc), with an example being using TS% at face value (Duncan and Giannis actually have similar rTS% when you consider that Giannis' TS% drops in the playoffs while Duncan's expands). Garnett loses out on scoring volume and efficiency, but his offensive impact comes from his transcendent big man passing (he's probably only behind Jokic and Bird when it comes to ATG bigs in that department) and floor spacing that go along with his very good isolation scoring that pressures defences (not as well as Duncan or Giannis due to the limitations I noted above, but he's still a pretty potent scorer for a big man). Btw AST% doesn't capture the quality of passes and it doesn't exactly account for changes in the game over the years (there simply weren't as many passing windows in the early aughts compared to the pace and space game in the modern era).

And I've written about his drawbacks compared to Garnett/Duncan when it comes to defence: he isn't a rotation machine like the two (he's still very good, but Garnett and Duncan had incredible defensive awareness while Giannis doesn't always capture stuff behind him), doesn't hold an advantage in defensive playmaking (in fact his 2020 campaign that has had him exhibit better defensive awareness has worse relative steal + block rates compared to the two at their best) and doesn't really beat the two in relative defensive rebounding rates with the league's average defensive rebounding rate going up in the modern game. He's considerably worse than either of them on the defensive end: you're comparing two players who arguably had top 10 defensive peaks of all time to a player who I'm not sure can make the top 30 (he might, but he's likely in the lower end of that range if that is the case). Impact metrics can't really be used here since we don't have PI data for Giannis that can be compared to Duncan or Garnett, but what we do know is that Giannis' +/- data right now is likely inflated due to how well Milwaukee's supporting cast fits around him while Duncan and Garnett had very robust portfolios in a multitude of circumstances - imo the reasonable conclusion would be that the two trump Giannis in this regard as well even with the lack of data to make an apples-to-apples comparison.

I'm well aware that this isn't an ATG argument, I wouldn't have bothered to reply to arguments saying that Giannis has a better career than Duncan and Garnett lol. I do think that Giannis is at least better than Duncan offensively even if he might not be the best offensive player out of the three, but I'm not very receptive to the argument that Giannis is very close to Duncan or Garnett defensively - the data and eye test don't really support it once you start digging into it.
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Re: Celtics Orlando Updates
« Reply #219 on: July 26, 2020, 07:52:35 PM »

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I'm not going to quote the whole above, but I think some good points are raised.

Quote
we do know is that Giannis' +/- data right now is likely inflated due to how well Milwaukee's supporting cast fits around him while Duncan and Garnett had very robust portfolios in a multitude of circumstances

I think this is an important point to raise. Although people often rightly note how Duncan had Manu, Parker and Robinson as great complementary pieces, in 02-03 I think he showed his ability to shoulder the load of a championship team on both ends. Lifting on both ends when the playoffs roll around, and winning a ring with a sophomore TP, rookie Manu and a 37 year old Admiral.

However, I think it's an even more important point regarding KG. He was year after year the victim of a mismanaged and miscoached team. Compare this to Giannis, who has a stud All-Star piece who doesn't need much of the ball, and a whole raft of other complementary pieces, and I think you get a more accurate representation of the picture.
Giannis' situation more aligns with Timmy's - great roster building and coaching, and very steady.
KG could only dream of such a thing, and once he got it (despite being past his prime) he was able to anchor a historic defence and be a top-3 player in the league.

I think Giannis right now is a better offensive force than Tim Duncan ever was, as he's so deadly scoring the ball and is a great passer for his size and position. However, I don't think he's better than KG on offence.
The thing that really for my mind holds Giannis back is playoff performance. Duncan obviously won a handful of rings, and was a playoff beast year after year. Once KG got his legs under him his playoff performances were awesome (I'm talking 2001-2013, but especially 01-04). Giannis has 2 years in a row now of somewhat underwhelming playoff performances, especially series' against Toronto in 2019.

Re: Celtics Orlando Updates
« Reply #220 on: July 26, 2020, 08:25:49 PM »

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Woof...Giannis being better than KG or TD?  I'm gonna disagree there.

How the casual masses remember KG is such a shame.  Probably Duncan, too, to a lesser degree.

Re: Celtics Orlando Updates
« Reply #221 on: July 26, 2020, 08:50:26 PM »

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Woof...Giannis being better than KG or TD?  I'm gonna disagree there.

How the casual masses remember KG is such a shame.  Probably Duncan, too, to a lesser degree.
I don't think it's an outrageous discussion, despite me disagreeing with it. Giannis is about to be a back-to-back MVP (barring something insane), joining the likes of Curry, LeBron, Duncan, Nash & Jordan. All top-5 guys at their position, with a few of them being the arguable GOAT at their position. Giannis is pretty dang good.

But like I said, he has to lift in the playoffs to make that discussion more serious for my mind

Re: Celtics Orlando Updates
« Reply #222 on: July 26, 2020, 10:48:45 PM »

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Am I the only one who is still in amazement at LeBron being the first person in NBA history to average 40K/10K/10K by possibly the end of next season?

Hate him all you want, but he is definitely one of the GOAT for sure.

Wow i would think a guy AVERAGING 40,000, 10,000, 10,000 would the MVP.
Those are his per career averages.  ;)

Re: Celtics Orlando Updates
« Reply #223 on: July 26, 2020, 10:51:20 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

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Okay, now we're seriously getting off topic.  ::)

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Can we take a moment to also appreciate the fact Tatum is growing up to be an incredible father? Especially at such a young age, being in the NBA is substantially harder when you have a child, yet alone taking the time to always show love to his son Duece. It also runs in the family considering his mother took care of Tatum while going to law school.

I'm very proud that he's a Celtic, and the fact that family seems to be one of the most coveted aspects in our team brings me a lot of joy. (Well, minus the fact that I'm a Mets fan --- it sort of makes up for that.)
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Re: Celtics Orlando Updates
« Reply #224 on: July 26, 2020, 11:35:27 PM »

Offline Somebody

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I'm not going to quote the whole above, but I think some good points are raised.

Quote
we do know is that Giannis' +/- data right now is likely inflated due to how well Milwaukee's supporting cast fits around him while Duncan and Garnett had very robust portfolios in a multitude of circumstances

I think this is an important point to raise. Although people often rightly note how Duncan had Manu, Parker and Robinson as great complementary pieces, in 02-03 I think he showed his ability to shoulder the load of a championship team on both ends. Lifting on both ends when the playoffs roll around, and winning a ring with a sophomore TP, rookie Manu and a 37 year old Admiral.

However, I think it's an even more important point regarding KG. He was year after year the victim of a mismanaged and miscoached team. Compare this to Giannis, who has a stud All-Star piece who doesn't need much of the ball, and a whole raft of other complementary pieces, and I think you get a more accurate representation of the picture.
Giannis' situation more aligns with Timmy's - great roster building and coaching, and very steady.
KG could only dream of such a thing, and once he got it (despite being past his prime) he was able to anchor a historic defence and be a top-3 player in the league.

I think Giannis right now is a better offensive force than Tim Duncan ever was, as he's so deadly scoring the ball and is a great passer for his size and position. However, I don't think he's better than KG on offence.
The thing that really for my mind holds Giannis back is playoff performance. Duncan obviously won a handful of rings, and was a playoff beast year after year. Once KG got his legs under him his playoff performances were awesome (I'm talking 2001-2013, but especially 01-04). Giannis has 2 years in a row now of somewhat underwhelming playoff performances, especially series' against Toronto in 2019.
I actually thought his 2018 1st round exit against us was pretty good, he absolutely canned us in the box score that series with the usual stuff he does outside of it. But yeah I think his style of offence that's pretty heavy on pushing the ball in transition and lack of reliable half court moves limits his efficiency come playoff time, which shrinks his advantage over Duncan on that end and gives Garnett somewhat of an argument.

Btw it's interesting that you think Garnett's 01-04 playoff performances were amazing, he usually gets knocked for it due to his inability to "ramp up" his scoring volume and efficiency against stingier defences (this is where his lower FTr compared to Giannis/Duncan hurts him, he couldn't pick up a lot of easy points by drawing fouls). But I do feel that Garnett's portfolio during that span is deflated a bit due to his teams regularly facing strong playoff contenders with underwhelming casts, and even his 2004 WCF run didn't have the best cast around him with Trenton Hassell and Ervin "not so magical" Johnson playing starter level minutes (those two were very poor offensive players, yes Garnett had a more top heavy cast than Duncan in 03 with Cassell and Spree as his sidekicks, but Duncan had a deeper squad that didn't have such offensively inept players who teams could sag off on without worrying much about it). Garnett's likely not as good at scoring oodles of moderate efficiency points as a lone star compared to Duncan or Giannis, but he's excellent at unlocking the potential of talented teammates, which imo is very valuable because even average teams usually have some sort of on-ball talent on their squads that KG's skillset can both carry (he's still a very good offensive player) and amplify.
Rockets PG: Westbrook, Rivers, Clemons SG: Harden, Gordon, McLemore
SF: House, Carroll, Caboclo PF: Covington, Green, Williams
C: Tucker, Hartenstein, Bender
Warriors PG: Curry, Jackson, Bowman SG: Thompson, Lee, Poole
SF: Wiggins, Okoro, Anderson PF: Green, Paschall, MKG
C: Looney, Chriss, Smiley