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Re: CBS latest mock draft
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2020, 09:29:04 AM »

Offline Evantime34

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CBS staff mock draft

This came out yesterday and in my opinion is one of the more sensible mocks I have seen on the internet.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2020-nba-mock-draft-lamelo-ball-goes-no-1-to-warriors-james-wiseman-slips-to-hornets-at-no-8/live/

My criticisms are

- Vassell probably should go higher then S Bey
- P Williams probably goes around end of the lottery (they have him 30th)
- Tyrell Terry I think he goes 15-20 or back to Stanford ( they have him out of the first)
- Xavier Tillman seems to sold to not go in the first over Oturu and Stewart
- Pokusevski I really worry that he never physically gains enough weight to play in NBA but he likely goes 1st rd as a late D&S
- Cole Anthony, I have to watch the video of the pick for the explanation but this might be taking BPA to fare. Garland, Sexton and Anthony seems like a disaster. Seems like a pick that would quickly be announced as a trade. Maybe Anthony to the Suns for Avdija and additional compensation?


For the Celtics

CBS has them taking

#17 Smith
#26 Oturu
#30 P Williams

The simple critique would be to swap out Oturu for Terry and this is a great draft haul.

The problem is we are know drafting 3 first round picks without a draft and stash is very unlikely

My deeper critique of these pick would be..

Celtics cant and wouldn't pass on Vassell at #17. I would make every effort to trade all 3 picks and R Williams to Hornets to get Wiseman but after that fails Vassell is a great addition outside the lottery. BS will have issues finding minutes for Langford and Vassell off the bench but his fit in todays game is to good to pass on. If as i predict Vassell goes late lottery, depending on who gets bumped down I would draft in the following order. Hampton, Maxey, Terry, Bolmaro, Maledon, P Williams. If we say Vassell and Bey swap places then I would take Tyrell Terry. Terry's weight and lack of strength are a major red flag but he is possibly the best shooting prospect in this class to go along with high end creation and BBall IQ.

At picks #26 and #30 the Cs will have a lot of role player type options.

If P Williams is available he has to much potential to pass on at #26. He is the perfect modern swing man who could develop into a nice utility player capable of guarding larger slower wings and smaller bigs. His potential as a shooter and vertical pop give him a height ceiling then G Williams or Semi. He could develop into a solid 5th starter. If Williams goes higher as I predict then I am all for drafting Xavier Tillman. He is very much a larger G Williams. Where Grant is a traditional 4/3 who plays some 5 in the modern NBA Tillman is a 4/5 who will only play the 5 in today's game. His IQ on both ends of the floor, strength and passing will make him an instant rotation player. The development of an outside shot will be his swing skill to a increased role but even without that he is a 15mpg NBA big on a really good team right now. Jaden McDaniels would also be a hard upside pass at this pick. He is likly a bust but also have the ceiling to be one of the best players in this class. At this point I wouldn't be at all upset if the Cs just took the McDaniels gamble but the roster may be stretched having he and Terry as two rookies unlikely to be physically ready to play in the NBA.   

If the Cs are at the end of the 1st round with no trade out options then they probably have to role the dice on Aleksej Pokusevski and plan on stashing him for at least 2 years. He is a 7' big man who at around 200lbs plays on the perimeter and has outlier perimeter passing and ball handling for his size. He really needs to add 30-40lbs but if he does he could be the steal of the draft. 

Vassell worries me that he ends up like James Young

He is also slender and not the best athlete

At best he ends up becoming like a Shaun Livingstone ....body needs work

Patrick Williams is raw and at this point an athlete disguised as a basketball player.   I like his potential and could consider taking him at 26.   If he could end up becoming OG Anunoby, that would be a nice find

I'm surprised that on the CBS list Mannion and Josh Green is rated so low

I doubt that Danny would let one of these slip by 17 (unless someone else better is also available)

I still think

17. Josh Green

26. (pick traded for future 1st)

30.  Kaleb Wesson

46. Killian Tillie

will be the picks

I find it hard to comp Vassell to Young. I actually think Young projected with a high ceiling coming out of college but a much lower floor then Vassell and Young hit that floor. Where Young had the potential to become a big time scorer who could conceivably hit a ceiling of a 1st/2nd option 20ppg player I view Vassell's ceiling capped as a high end 3-D type and think he has shown enough as a defender in college to warrant a pretty high floor as a rotational piece on a good team.

Mannion will be interesting to watch on draft night, he is clearly a high IQ floor general who can shoot and will find a place in the NBA. The problem I have with him is if he is a good enough athlete to get to the rim or consistently defend other teams starting PGs. I worry that he will be a player stuck not good enough to start so he becomes a high end backup who can easily have his production replicated by less talented role player type PGs.

Green is a player I wouldn't mind the Cs drafting. I see him having a Courtney Lee like NBA career both are good athletes with good size who player good perimeter defense. Nothing spectacular but like Lee Green should be a player capable of starting as a role player or playing a key rotational role on a good team. 


 

I think Vassell will be able to come in and defend at an NBA level from day 1. Young was always kind of lost on defense.
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Re: CBS latest mock draft
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2020, 10:06:13 AM »

Offline footey

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CBS staff mock draft

This came out yesterday and in my opinion is one of the more sensible mocks I have seen on the internet.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2020-nba-mock-draft-lamelo-ball-goes-no-1-to-warriors-james-wiseman-slips-to-hornets-at-no-8/live/

My criticisms are

- Vassell probably should go higher then S Bey
- P Williams probably goes around end of the lottery (they have him 30th)
- Tyrell Terry I think he goes 15-20 or back to Stanford ( they have him out of the first)
- Xavier Tillman seems to sold to not go in the first over Oturu and Stewart
- Pokusevski I really worry that he never physically gains enough weight to play in NBA but he likely goes 1st rd as a late D&S
- Cole Anthony, I have to watch the video of the pick for the explanation but this might be taking BPA to fare. Garland, Sexton and Anthony seems like a disaster. Seems like a pick that would quickly be announced as a trade. Maybe Anthony to the Suns for Avdija and additional compensation?


For the Celtics

CBS has them taking

#17 Smith
#26 Oturu
#30 P Williams

The simple critique would be to swap out Oturu for Terry and this is a great draft haul.

The problem is we are know drafting 3 first round picks without a draft and stash is very unlikely

My deeper critique of these pick would be..

Celtics cant and wouldn't pass on Vassell at #17. I would make every effort to trade all 3 picks and R Williams to Hornets to get Wiseman but after that fails Vassell is a great addition outside the lottery. BS will have issues finding minutes for Langford and Vassell off the bench but his fit in todays game is to good to pass on. If as i predict Vassell goes late lottery, depending on who gets bumped down I would draft in the following order. Hampton, Maxey, Terry, Bolmaro, Maledon, P Williams. If we say Vassell and Bey swap places then I would take Tyrell Terry. Terry's weight and lack of strength are a major red flag but he is possibly the best shooting prospect in this class to go along with high end creation and BBall IQ.

At picks #26 and #30 the Cs will have a lot of role player type options.

If P Williams is available he has to much potential to pass on at #26. He is the perfect modern swing man who could develop into a nice utility player capable of guarding larger slower wings and smaller bigs. His potential as a shooter and vertical pop give him a height ceiling then G Williams or Semi. He could develop into a solid 5th starter. If Williams goes higher as I predict then I am all for drafting Xavier Tillman. He is very much a larger G Williams. Where Grant is a traditional 4/3 who plays some 5 in the modern NBA Tillman is a 4/5 who will only play the 5 in today's game. His IQ on both ends of the floor, strength and passing will make him an instant rotation player. The development of an outside shot will be his swing skill to a increased role but even without that he is a 15mpg NBA big on a really good team right now. Jaden McDaniels would also be a hard upside pass at this pick. He is likly a bust but also have the ceiling to be one of the best players in this class. At this point I wouldn't be at all upset if the Cs just took the McDaniels gamble but the roster may be stretched having he and Terry as two rookies unlikely to be physically ready to play in the NBA.   

If the Cs are at the end of the 1st round with no trade out options then they probably have to role the dice on Aleksej Pokusevski and plan on stashing him for at least 2 years. He is a 7' big man who at around 200lbs plays on the perimeter and has outlier perimeter passing and ball handling for his size. He really needs to add 30-40lbs but if he does he could be the steal of the draft. 

Vassell worries me that he ends up like James Young

He is also slender and not the best athlete

At best he ends up becoming like a Shaun Livingstone ....body needs work

Patrick Williams is raw and at this point an athlete disguised as a basketball player.   I like his potential and could consider taking him at 26.   If he could end up becoming OG Anunoby, that would be a nice find

I'm surprised that on the CBS list Mannion and Josh Green is rated so low

I doubt that Danny would let one of these slip by 17 (unless someone else better is also available)

I still think

17. Josh Green

26. (pick traded for future 1st)

30.  Kaleb Wesson

46. Killian Tillie

will be the picks

I find it hard to comp Vassell to Young. I actually think Young projected with a high ceiling coming out of college but a much lower floor then Vassell and Young hit that floor. Where Young had the potential to become a big time scorer who could conceivably hit a ceiling of a 1st/2nd option 20ppg player I view Vassell's ceiling capped as a high end 3-D type and think he has shown enough as a defender in college to warrant a pretty high floor as a rotational piece on a good team.

Mannion will be interesting to watch on draft night, he is clearly a high IQ floor general who can shoot and will find a place in the NBA. The problem I have with him is if he is a good enough athlete to get to the rim or consistently defend other teams starting PGs. I worry that he will be a player stuck not good enough to start so he becomes a high end backup who can easily have his production replicated by less talented role player type PGs.

Green is a player I wouldn't mind the Cs drafting. I see him having a Courtney Lee like NBA career both are good athletes with good size who player good perimeter defense. Nothing spectacular but like Lee Green should be a player capable of starting as a role player or playing a key rotational role on a good team. 


 

Don't know Vassell well, but based on the tape, seems the opposite of James Young. Has a great motor per scouting reports, especially defensively.  My only concern is roster construction, as he would be competing with Langford for bench swing minutes. Not a good reasons NOT to draft someone but given what happened in 2018-19, something management will be mindful of.  Vassell seems like a perfect swing 2/3 for Brad's system.  I can see why 38 is so high on him.

Re: CBS latest mock draft
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2020, 10:46:40 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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I doubt GSW take Ball unless it's for a trade

I see them taking Toppin one way or the other

I'm not sure I understand your thinking here. Toppin is not a great passer and a very questionable defender. That doesn't really fit the mold of their offense.

If you think they want a rim runner, they could get one off the scrap heap for a vet minimum.

Unless they think Toppin is clear and away the best prospect in the draft, I doubt they would take him.

1st this is not a very strong draft

2nd GSW have a hole upfront. Toppin ability to shoot the 3 is a bonus

3rd Warriors play team D . Toppin doesn't have to be exceptional. As long as he learns the system, utilizes his physical tools and puts in consistent effort. 

If Toppin can provide a similar role to what Harrison Barnes did several years ago (just a pf version), that would be a nice fit

You can let him loose on offense at times and give Curry, Klay time to breathe a little. Also if Toppin starts to catch fire/attention it opens up space for the rest



Re: CBS latest mock draft
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2020, 11:08:27 AM »

Offline gouki88

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I doubt GSW take Ball unless it's for a trade

I see them taking Toppin one way or the other

I'm not sure I understand your thinking here. Toppin is not a great passer and a very questionable defender. That doesn't really fit the mold of their offense.

If you think they want a rim runner, they could get one off the scrap heap for a vet minimum.

Unless they think Toppin is clear and away the best prospect in the draft, I doubt they would take him.
Yeah, I can't see them going after Toppin too aggressively. He's very similar to Amare Stoudemire (I don't think he'll be as good, but similar playstyle), which is the anti-GSW big man. Golden State were at their best with a defensive stalwart who could pass in the middle, with Green and Bogut coming to mind. I also doubt they want to add a defensive liability alongside Wiggins.

Re: CBS latest mock draft
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2020, 02:10:40 PM »

Online CFAN38

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CBS staff mock draft

This came out yesterday and in my opinion is one of the more sensible mocks I have seen on the internet.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2020-nba-mock-draft-lamelo-ball-goes-no-1-to-warriors-james-wiseman-slips-to-hornets-at-no-8/live/

My criticisms are

- Vassell probably should go higher then S Bey
- P Williams probably goes around end of the lottery (they have him 30th)
- Tyrell Terry I think he goes 15-20 or back to Stanford ( they have him out of the first)
- Xavier Tillman seems to sold to not go in the first over Oturu and Stewart
- Pokusevski I really worry that he never physically gains enough weight to play in NBA but he likely goes 1st rd as a late D&S
- Cole Anthony, I have to watch the video of the pick for the explanation but this might be taking BPA to fare. Garland, Sexton and Anthony seems like a disaster. Seems like a pick that would quickly be announced as a trade. Maybe Anthony to the Suns for Avdija and additional compensation?


For the Celtics

CBS has them taking

#17 Smith
#26 Oturu
#30 P Williams

The simple critique would be to swap out Oturu for Terry and this is a great draft haul.

The problem is we are know drafting 3 first round picks without a draft and stash is very unlikely

My deeper critique of these pick would be..

Celtics cant and wouldn't pass on Vassell at #17. I would make every effort to trade all 3 picks and R Williams to Hornets to get Wiseman but after that fails Vassell is a great addition outside the lottery. BS will have issues finding minutes for Langford and Vassell off the bench but his fit in todays game is to good to pass on. If as i predict Vassell goes late lottery, depending on who gets bumped down I would draft in the following order. Hampton, Maxey, Terry, Bolmaro, Maledon, P Williams. If we say Vassell and Bey swap places then I would take Tyrell Terry. Terry's weight and lack of strength are a major red flag but he is possibly the best shooting prospect in this class to go along with high end creation and BBall IQ.

At picks #26 and #30 the Cs will have a lot of role player type options.

If P Williams is available he has to much potential to pass on at #26. He is the perfect modern swing man who could develop into a nice utility player capable of guarding larger slower wings and smaller bigs. His potential as a shooter and vertical pop give him a height ceiling then G Williams or Semi. He could develop into a solid 5th starter. If Williams goes higher as I predict then I am all for drafting Xavier Tillman. He is very much a larger G Williams. Where Grant is a traditional 4/3 who plays some 5 in the modern NBA Tillman is a 4/5 who will only play the 5 in today's game. His IQ on both ends of the floor, strength and passing will make him an instant rotation player. The development of an outside shot will be his swing skill to a increased role but even without that he is a 15mpg NBA big on a really good team right now. Jaden McDaniels would also be a hard upside pass at this pick. He is likly a bust but also have the ceiling to be one of the best players in this class. At this point I wouldn't be at all upset if the Cs just took the McDaniels gamble but the roster may be stretched having he and Terry as two rookies unlikely to be physically ready to play in the NBA.   

If the Cs are at the end of the 1st round with no trade out options then they probably have to role the dice on Aleksej Pokusevski and plan on stashing him for at least 2 years. He is a 7' big man who at around 200lbs plays on the perimeter and has outlier perimeter passing and ball handling for his size. He really needs to add 30-40lbs but if he does he could be the steal of the draft. 

Vassell worries me that he ends up like James Young

He is also slender and not the best athlete

At best he ends up becoming like a Shaun Livingstone ....body needs work

Patrick Williams is raw and at this point an athlete disguised as a basketball player.   I like his potential and could consider taking him at 26.   If he could end up becoming OG Anunoby, that would be a nice find

I'm surprised that on the CBS list Mannion and Josh Green is rated so low

I doubt that Danny would let one of these slip by 17 (unless someone else better is also available)

I still think

17. Josh Green

26. (pick traded for future 1st)

30.  Kaleb Wesson

46. Killian Tillie

will be the picks

I find it hard to comp Vassell to Young. I actually think Young projected with a high ceiling coming out of college but a much lower floor then Vassell and Young hit that floor. Where Young had the potential to become a big time scorer who could conceivably hit a ceiling of a 1st/2nd option 20ppg player I view Vassell's ceiling capped as a high end 3-D type and think he has shown enough as a defender in college to warrant a pretty high floor as a rotational piece on a good team.

Mannion will be interesting to watch on draft night, he is clearly a high IQ floor general who can shoot and will find a place in the NBA. The problem I have with him is if he is a good enough athlete to get to the rim or consistently defend other teams starting PGs. I worry that he will be a player stuck not good enough to start so he becomes a high end backup who can easily have his production replicated by less talented role player type PGs.

Green is a player I wouldn't mind the Cs drafting. I see him having a Courtney Lee like NBA career both are good athletes with good size who player good perimeter defense. Nothing spectacular but like Lee Green should be a player capable of starting as a role player or playing a key rotational role on a good team. 


 

I think Vassell will be able to come in and defend at an NBA level from day 1. Young was always kind of lost on defense.

I agree on a bad team you can draft for offense and hope a player develops on D. A good team like Boston has to draft with defense in mind in order for the player to ever get any minutes then develop on offense. At a min Vassell should be able to function in a team defensive scheme and shoot corner 3.
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Re: CBS latest mock draft
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2020, 02:21:46 PM »

Online CFAN38

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I doubt GSW take Ball unless it's for a trade

I see them taking Toppin one way or the other

I'm not sure I understand your thinking here. Toppin is not a great passer and a very questionable defender. That doesn't really fit the mold of their offense.

If you think they want a rim runner, they could get one off the scrap heap for a vet minimum.

Unless they think Toppin is clear and away the best prospect in the draft, I doubt they would take him.

1st this is not a very strong draft

2nd GSW have a hole upfront. Toppin ability to shoot the 3 is a bonus

3rd Warriors play team D . Toppin doesn't have to be exceptional. As long as he learns the system, utilizes his physical tools and puts in consistent effort. 

If Toppin can provide a similar role to what Harrison Barnes did several years ago (just a pf version), that would be a nice fit

You can let him loose on offense at times and give Curry, Klay time to breathe a little. Also if Toppin starts to catch fire/attention it opens up space for the rest

I agree Toppin has a lot of value on offense and that this draft has a weak  top 10. I'm just not sold that GS will want a big man who they have to actively work to hide on defense. Their 2015 dominance was often sparked by their small ball lineup with Green at the 5 and Barnes at the 4 Toppin is roughly the size of Barnes but with the perimeter mobility of a true center. This would likely force him to the bench in crutch time, I find it hard to see a team drafting a player top 3 who need to sit at the end of playoff games. 
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Re: CBS latest mock draft
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2020, 05:55:59 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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I doubt GSW take Ball unless it's for a trade

I see them taking Toppin one way or the other

I'm not sure I understand your thinking here. Toppin is not a great passer and a very questionable defender. That doesn't really fit the mold of their offense.

If you think they want a rim runner, they could get one off the scrap heap for a vet minimum.

Unless they think Toppin is clear and away the best prospect in the draft, I doubt they would take him.
Yeah, I can't see them going after Toppin too aggressively. He's very similar to Amare Stoudemire (I don't think he'll be as good, but similar playstyle), which is the anti-GSW big man. Golden State were at their best with a defensive stalwart who could pass in the middle, with Green and Bogut coming to mind. I also doubt they want to add a defensive liability alongside Wiggins.

Toppin can stretch the floor unlike Amare. Which fits better in the GSW system.  Otherwise I can see the similarities

On the other hand when you state he is anti-GSW big man.... this draft doesn't present many options for such player

Wiseman is not a good passer nor can stretch the floor

Who else would they target?

Re: CBS latest mock draft
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2020, 05:59:21 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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I doubt GSW take Ball unless it's for a trade

I see them taking Toppin one way or the other

I'm not sure I understand your thinking here. Toppin is not a great passer and a very questionable defender. That doesn't really fit the mold of their offense.

If you think they want a rim runner, they could get one off the scrap heap for a vet minimum.

Unless they think Toppin is clear and away the best prospect in the draft, I doubt they would take him.

1st this is not a very strong draft

2nd GSW have a hole upfront. Toppin ability to shoot the 3 is a bonus

3rd Warriors play team D . Toppin doesn't have to be exceptional. As long as he learns the system, utilizes his physical tools and puts in consistent effort. 

If Toppin can provide a similar role to what Harrison Barnes did several years ago (just a pf version), that would be a nice fit

You can let him loose on offense at times and give Curry, Klay time to breathe a little. Also if Toppin starts to catch fire/attention it opens up space for the rest

I agree Toppin has a lot of value on offense and that this draft has a weak  top 10. I'm just not sold that GS will want a big man who they have to actively work to hide on defense. Their 2015 dominance was often sparked by their small ball lineup with Green at the 5 and Barnes at the 4 Toppin is roughly the size of Barnes but with the perimeter mobility of a true center. This would likely force him to the bench in crutch time, I find it hard to see a team drafting a player top 3 who need to sit at the end of playoff games.

Really? He has good quickness/long strides and good hops

His footwork needs refinement (especially on D end)

If you play Toppin, Green, Wiggins, Thompson, Curry..... can't see why that can't be potential crunch time lineup

Re: CBS latest mock draft
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2020, 08:08:06 PM »

Offline gouki88

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I doubt GSW take Ball unless it's for a trade

I see them taking Toppin one way or the other

I'm not sure I understand your thinking here. Toppin is not a great passer and a very questionable defender. That doesn't really fit the mold of their offense.

If you think they want a rim runner, they could get one off the scrap heap for a vet minimum.

Unless they think Toppin is clear and away the best prospect in the draft, I doubt they would take him.
Yeah, I can't see them going after Toppin too aggressively. He's very similar to Amare Stoudemire (I don't think he'll be as good, but similar playstyle), which is the anti-GSW big man. Golden State were at their best with a defensive stalwart who could pass in the middle, with Green and Bogut coming to mind. I also doubt they want to add a defensive liability alongside Wiggins.

Toppin can stretch the floor unlike Amare. Which fits better in the GSW system.  Otherwise I can see the similarities

On the other hand when you state he is anti-GSW big man.... this draft doesn't present many options for such player

Wiseman is not a good passer nor can stretch the floor

Who else would they target?
I think the trade market might be the way they go. They donít need a bug who can stretch the floor. Green has always been a very erratic shooter, and Bogut couldnít shoot a lick. Wiseman is probably their guy as he can defend and is a legit vertical spacer, being 7í1Ē with a 7í6Ē wingspan. I think that size and athleticism is most appealing to Golden State.

Hurts that itís a weak big man draft for them

Re: CBS latest mock draft
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2020, 08:47:28 PM »

Online CFAN38

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I doubt GSW take Ball unless it's for a trade

I see them taking Toppin one way or the other

I'm not sure I understand your thinking here. Toppin is not a great passer and a very questionable defender. That doesn't really fit the mold of their offense.

If you think they want a rim runner, they could get one off the scrap heap for a vet minimum.

Unless they think Toppin is clear and away the best prospect in the draft, I doubt they would take him.

1st this is not a very strong draft

2nd GSW have a hole upfront. Toppin ability to shoot the 3 is a bonus

3rd Warriors play team D . Toppin doesn't have to be exceptional. As long as he learns the system, utilizes his physical tools and puts in consistent effort. 

If Toppin can provide a similar role to what Harrison Barnes did several years ago (just a pf version), that would be a nice fit

You can let him loose on offense at times and give Curry, Klay time to breathe a little. Also if Toppin starts to catch fire/attention it opens up space for the rest

I agree Toppin has a lot of value on offense and that this draft has a weak  top 10. I'm just not sold that GS will want a big man who they have to actively work to hide on defense. Their 2015 dominance was often sparked by their small ball lineup with Green at the 5 and Barnes at the 4 Toppin is roughly the size of Barnes but with the perimeter mobility of a true center. This would likely force him to the bench in crutch time, I find it hard to see a team drafting a player top 3 who need to sit at the end of playoff games.

Really? He has good quickness/long strides and good hops

His footwork needs refinement (especially on D end)

If you play Toppin, Green, Wiggins, Thompson, Curry..... can't see why that can't be potential crunch time lineup

He is very explosive vertically but has high hips and I just donít ever see him ever becoming a mediocre defender. While that lineup couls be good in crunch time I donít think itís the championship level great lineup the GS will be striving for.

I doubt the Warriors are at all worried about finding a big man. During their championship run it the 5 has been their least priority position. They need to figure out how to replicate their previous Barnes/AI/Livingston production with Wiggins and ??. This might mean trading Wigging, trading their pick for a vet, taking a player like Ball, or the my favorite scenario they trade down for a role player who can fit their style.
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Re: CBS latest mock draft
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2020, 11:31:39 AM »

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Just to be clear, I like Toppin a lot, but this idea that GSW would take Toppin hands down is wrong to me not because I don't like him as a prospect, but because of the state of the NBA right now.

Spending a top lottery pick on a big who will not be dominate is just bad use of resources. You can easily get bigs to fill that role (at 80%) for minimum contracts or the MLE.

If Toppin could be as good as Embiid, then maybe, but he projects as another John Collins. He's a good NBA player, but can John Collins be part of a championship team?

Just from a sheer value perspective, it would be better for GSW to pick the wing with the highest upside who can also fit on their team.

For example, if Toppin became a 20-9-3 type player with average defense (that is hoping for a lot), and Okoro (who I don't like as much as some) becomes a 14-5-3 type player with good defense, Okoro will have more value around the NBA than Toppin.

Again, I like Toppin and think he will be a good NBA player, but the league values wings most right now. If you want to get value in the draft and there are no clear cut front-runners, its better to go with a wing.

Re: CBS latest mock draft
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2020, 11:51:28 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Just to be clear, I like Toppin a lot, but this idea that GSW would take Toppin hands down is wrong to me not because I don't like him as a prospect, but because of the state of the NBA right now.

Spending a top lottery pick on a big who will not be dominate is just bad use of resources. You can easily get bigs to fill that role (at 80%) for minimum contracts or the MLE.

If Toppin could be as good as Embiid, then maybe, but he projects as another John Collins. He's a good NBA player, but can John Collins be part of a championship team?

Just from a sheer value perspective, it would be better for GSW to pick the wing with the highest upside who can also fit on their team.

For example, if Toppin became a 20-9-3 type player with average defense (that is hoping for a lot), and Okoro (who I don't like as much as some) becomes a 14-5-3 type player with good defense, Okoro will have more value around the NBA than Toppin.

Again, I like Toppin and think he will be a good NBA player, but the league values wings most right now. If you want to get value in the draft and there are no clear cut front-runners, its better to go with a wing.

Disagree

GSW is deep on the backend

And since there is no "elite" talent from one of the backend position in this years draft,  you pick based on needs

You can't have a lineup of Green, Wiggins, Thompson, Okoro, Curry.... that is miniature ball.  Rockets are the only insane team to try to implement this and most experts agree it is doomed to fail.

If Okoro comes off the bench, than this is a waste (top 5 pick)

GSW lost a lot of size in Durant, Bogut, Mcgee etc

I rather have a John Collins (like you stated).  And yes John Collins could be a starter on a championship team.  Since they have a guy like Draymond Green "glueing" it together
« Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 02:04:52 PM by Tr1boy »

Re: CBS latest mock draft
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2020, 01:16:10 PM »

Offline mef730

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Can't believe how many names I've seen posted above and thought, "who?!"

On the plus side, the 2013 draft was one of the weakest in years at the time, but Giannis, Oladipo, Gobert, etc. were still in it.

Mike

Re: CBS latest mock draft
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2020, 02:49:31 PM »

Online DefenseWinsChamps

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Just to be clear, I like Toppin a lot, but this idea that GSW would take Toppin hands down is wrong to me not because I don't like him as a prospect, but because of the state of the NBA right now.

Spending a top lottery pick on a big who will not be dominate is just bad use of resources. You can easily get bigs to fill that role (at 80%) for minimum contracts or the MLE.

If Toppin could be as good as Embiid, then maybe, but he projects as another John Collins. He's a good NBA player, but can John Collins be part of a championship team?

Just from a sheer value perspective, it would be better for GSW to pick the wing with the highest upside who can also fit on their team.

For example, if Toppin became a 20-9-3 type player with average defense (that is hoping for a lot), and Okoro (who I don't like as much as some) becomes a 14-5-3 type player with good defense, Okoro will have more value around the NBA than Toppin.

Again, I like Toppin and think he will be a good NBA player, but the league values wings most right now. If you want to get value in the draft and there are no clear cut front-runners, its better to go with a wing.

Disagree

GSW is deep on the backend

And since there is no "elite" talent from one of the backend position in this years draft,  you pick based on needs

You can't have a lineup of Green, Wiggins, Thompson, Okoro, Curry.... that is miniature ball.  Rockets are the only insane team to try to implement this and most experts agree it is doomed to fail.

If Okoro comes off the bench, than this is a waste (top 5 pick)

GSW lost a lot of size in Durant, Bogut, Mcgee etc

I rather have a John Collins (like you stated).  And yes John Collins could be a starter on a championship team.  Since they have a guy like Draymond Green "glueing" it together

I understand what you mean, but I do disagree with you. Rumors were that the Hawks were shopping Collins at the deadline. If a player like him were all that were necessary, wouldn't the Warriors trade their first for him?

Swing/Big scorers that are not elite, but can get 15-20 points a game with questionable defense are some of the lowest value players in the NBA. Collins, Randle, Kuzma, Barnes, and Chriss are all examples of this. If that piece was really all they needed, wouldn't they trade their first for Randle? Kuzma? Collins?

(Edit: I think the reason for this is that these players have extremely inflated numbers because of the modern NBA. What they do isn't hard, and most can easily be replaced with cheaper contracts. Typically, their job is to catch the ball on the pick-and-roll when the defense is already compromised and figure out how to score. That sounds important, and to a certain extent it is, but the deadliest pick-and-rolls in the modern NBA are either dominate (James-Davis) or are about that player making the right reads. Most NBA defenses would rather that guy try to score against helpside defense than make the pass to the corner three.

Another problem with these players is that they are too small to play at center, and typically they are unable to anchor a good defense even if they were good enough. That means you have to play a center next to them. If the center can't reliably stretch the defense, then that player can't score at as high of a level, and therefore his over impact on the game is mitigated. That's why, I think, the Hawks were willing to move on from Collins when they got Dedmon and Capella. If Collins could play defense, they wouldn't need either.)

That's besides the point. If the Warriors did draft a wing, it wouldn't be because they planned on playing all the small guys like the Rockets. You can almost never have to many quality wings in the modern NBA. Besides, I don't think that Wiggins' name in the starting lineup is exactly graven in stone. They need a defender. Wiggins is not that.

I think it's far more likely that they draft a wing who can contribute defensively right away, be a low usage player, and slowly develop into a solid offensive threat. Then, I think it's likely they try to trade Wiggins for a big. Wiggins is basically the new Monte Ellis, whom they traded for Bogut to start their ascent all those years ago.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 04:04:09 PM by DefenseWinsChamps »

Re: CBS latest mock draft
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2020, 05:48:14 PM »

Online CFAN38

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Just to be clear, I like Toppin a lot, but this idea that GSW would take Toppin hands down is wrong to me not because I don't like him as a prospect, but because of the state of the NBA right now.

Spending a top lottery pick on a big who will not be dominate is just bad use of resources. You can easily get bigs to fill that role (at 80%) for minimum contracts or the MLE.

If Toppin could be as good as Embiid, then maybe, but he projects as another John Collins. He's a good NBA player, but can John Collins be part of a championship team?

Just from a sheer value perspective, it would be better for GSW to pick the wing with the highest upside who can also fit on their team.

For example, if Toppin became a 20-9-3 type player with average defense (that is hoping for a lot), and Okoro (who I don't like as much as some) becomes a 14-5-3 type player with good defense, Okoro will have more value around the NBA than Toppin.

Again, I like Toppin and think he will be a good NBA player, but the league values wings most right now. If you want to get value in the draft and there are no clear cut front-runners, its better to go with a wing.

Disagree

GSW is deep on the backend

And since there is no "elite" talent from one of the backend position in this years draft,  you pick based on needs

You can't have a lineup of Green, Wiggins, Thompson, Okoro, Curry.... that is miniature ball.  Rockets are the only insane team to try to implement this and most experts agree it is doomed to fail.

If Okoro comes off the bench, than this is a waste (top 5 pick)

GSW lost a lot of size in Durant, Bogut, Mcgee etc

I rather have a John Collins (like you stated).  And yes John Collins could be a starter on a championship team.  Since they have a guy like Draymond Green "glueing" it together

The Warriors 2015 team used a death lineup for curry, Thompson, Iquoldala, Barnes and Green. Okoro and Wiggins are the same height as IA and Barnes.

Any play the warriors draft isnít likely to be starting given then window to win if they donít trade wigging he will start along with curry, Thompson, green and a vet ring chasing big. Maybe Tristan Thompson? The lack of star talent in this class means they will be drafting a likely role player and not someone they project as a starting for a championship run.

 Okongwu is the only draft pick who could possibly start this year but in the curry era they havenít placed enough value in bigs to project them drafting him
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