Author Topic: MJs top starting five  (Read 4493 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #60 on: May 27, 2020, 01:20:52 AM »

Offline Somebody

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5284
  • Tommy Points: 351
  • KANSEI DORIFUTO
There are so many deserving players but I'd settle on the following for an all-time starting 5

Oscar Robinson
Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Kevin Garnett
Bill Russell
Oscar Robinson would have been the GOAT! A hybrid of Oscar Robertson and David Robinson? That would have been special! :P

Gimme Bill Bird though. Bird's shooting/scoring and basketball IQ + Russell's athleticism, defense and unparalleled winning mentality. Just wow!
Michael Garnett please 8)

Haha!

Looks like I'm yet another victim of auto-correct.  I'm not even going to bother fixing my original post, it's too funny.
Yeah lol. This is my all-time hybrid starting 5:
Stephen Jordan
Michael Miller
Larry James
Kevin Nowitzki
Bill Abdul-Jabbar

Bill Abdul-Jabbar (the former Lewis Russell) is a totally unfair mash-up.

Combining 7-2 height, olympic-track-level jumping athleticism, super instinctual shot contention & team defense and unstoppable scoring touch from within 8 feet.  Averages 30+ points, 25 rebounds, 6 assists, 10 blocks and 5 steals per game.

Do you mean Wilt Chamberlin?
No. Wilt was never Kareem level tall and he definitely did not have the offensive game Kareem did (high volume scoring on unrivaled efficiency + astute passing). He also lagged behind Russell a bit defensively.
Rockets PG: Westbrook, Rivers, Clemons SG: Harden, Gordon, McLemore
SF: House, Carroll, Caboclo PF: Covington, Green, Williams
C: Tucker, Hartenstein, Bender
Warriors PG: Curry, Jackson, Bowman SG: Thompson, Lee, Poole
SF: Wiggins, Okoro, Anderson PF: Green, Paschall, MKG
C: Looney, Chriss, Smiley

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #61 on: May 27, 2020, 01:30:14 AM »

Offline Somebody

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5284
  • Tommy Points: 351
  • KANSEI DORIFUTO
There are so many deserving players but I'd settle on the following for an all-time starting 5

Oscar Robinson
Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Kevin Garnett
Bill Russell
Oscar Robinson would have been the GOAT! A hybrid of Oscar Robertson and David Robinson? That would have been special! :P

Gimme Bill Bird though. Bird's shooting/scoring and basketball IQ + Russell's athleticism, defense and unparalleled winning mentality. Just wow!
Michael Garnett please 8)

Haha!

Looks like I'm yet another victim of auto-correct.  I'm not even going to bother fixing my original post, it's too funny.
Yeah lol. This is my all-time hybrid starting 5:
Stephen Jordan
Michael Miller
Larry James
Kevin Nowitzki
Bill Abdul-Jabbar

Bill Abdul-Jabbar (the former Lewis Russell) is a totally unfair mash-up.

Combining 7-2 height, olympic-track-level jumping athleticism, super instinctual shot contention & team defense and unstoppable scoring touch from within 8 feet.  Averages 30+ points, 25 rebounds, 6 assists, 10 blocks and 5 steals per game.
Average passing + below average ball handling + no shooting though. :P

Bill Bird would be killin it! Elite shooting + elite scoring + elite passing + elite basketball IQ + elite defense + elite rebounding + elite athleticism + elite work ethic + unparalleled winning mentality! Can't beat that!
Russell was a passing hub for those 60s Celtics teams while Jabbar was an amazing offensive anchor in the half court in the 70s (and even the early 80s) who balanced scoring and passing unlike any other big in history up to that point of time. Jabbar also had some really good FT shooting percentages, ntm his skyhook had range. Hardly average in those aspects lol. But Bill Bird would be amazing now that I think of it.
Rockets PG: Westbrook, Rivers, Clemons SG: Harden, Gordon, McLemore
SF: House, Carroll, Caboclo PF: Covington, Green, Williams
C: Tucker, Hartenstein, Bender
Warriors PG: Curry, Jackson, Bowman SG: Thompson, Lee, Poole
SF: Wiggins, Okoro, Anderson PF: Green, Paschall, MKG
C: Looney, Chriss, Smiley

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #62 on: May 27, 2020, 01:31:18 AM »

Offline Somebody

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5284
  • Tommy Points: 351
  • KANSEI DORIFUTO
Hybrid 5 is a cool concept. For me it's just adding top athletes with more shooting so

Steph Robinson
Klay Jordan
LeBron Bird
Kevin Nowitzki
Wilt Okur
I see you have the same idea as me when it comes to hybrid PFs :laugh:
Rockets PG: Westbrook, Rivers, Clemons SG: Harden, Gordon, McLemore
SF: House, Carroll, Caboclo PF: Covington, Green, Williams
C: Tucker, Hartenstein, Bender
Warriors PG: Curry, Jackson, Bowman SG: Thompson, Lee, Poole
SF: Wiggins, Okoro, Anderson PF: Green, Paschall, MKG
C: Looney, Chriss, Smiley

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #63 on: May 27, 2020, 08:18:06 AM »

Offline Moranis

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23351
  • Tommy Points: 1119
There are so many deserving players but I'd settle on the following for an all-time starting 5

Oscar Robinson
Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Kevin Garnett
Bill Russell
Oscar Robinson would have been the GOAT! A hybrid of Oscar Robertson and David Robinson? That would have been special! :P

Gimme Bill Bird though. Bird's shooting/scoring and basketball IQ + Russell's athleticism, defense and unparalleled winning mentality. Just wow!
Michael Garnett please 8)

Haha!

Looks like I'm yet another victim of auto-correct.  I'm not even going to bother fixing my original post, it's too funny.
Yeah lol. This is my all-time hybrid starting 5:
Stephen Jordan
Michael Miller
Larry James
Kevin Nowitzki
Bill Abdul-Jabbar

Bill Abdul-Jabbar (the former Lewis Russell) is a totally unfair mash-up.

Combining 7-2 height, olympic-track-level jumping athleticism, super instinctual shot contention & team defense and unstoppable scoring touch from within 8 feet.  Averages 30+ points, 25 rebounds, 6 assists, 10 blocks and 5 steals per game.

Do you mean Wilt Chamberlin?
No. Wilt was never Kareem level tall and he definitely did not have the offensive game Kareem did (high volume scoring on unrivaled efficiency + astute passing). He also lagged behind Russell a bit defensively.
Wilt led the league in assists one season (8.6 also had a 7.8 season).  He led the league in FG% 9 times.  Kareem led the league in FG% 1 time and obviously never led the league in assists (topped out at 5.4).  Different eras so the game was different, but you are really underselling Wilt.  And Wilt was 7'1' while Kareem was 7'2".  Wilt is also by far the strongest player the league has ever seen.  It isn't close.  Wilt is an unrivaled physical specimen.  It is one of the reasons he played 48.5 mpg one season (he missed like 25 minutes the entire season).  Wilt was just an incredible athlete. 
Historical Draft - Portland Trailblazers
PG - Magic Johnson, Tony Parker
SG - Clyde Drexler, Dennis Johnson, Alvin Robertson
SF - James Worthy, Alex English
PF - Charles Barkley, Ben Wallace
C - Moses Malone, George Mikan, Brad Daugherty

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #64 on: May 27, 2020, 09:21:44 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

  • Frank Ramsey
  • ************
  • Posts: 12143
  • Tommy Points: 1474
Quote
Wilt is also by far the strongest player the league has ever seen.  It isn't close.  Wilt is an unrivaled physical specimen.

I'd wager Shaquille O'Neal would be laughing his head off if he read this.

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #65 on: May 27, 2020, 09:27:33 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

  • Frank Ramsey
  • ************
  • Posts: 12143
  • Tommy Points: 1474
I think my perfect 'hybrid' PG would be Gary Nash.  Payton's defensive chops, athleticism, and intensity mixed with Nash's all-time offensive brilliance and high level shooting.

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #66 on: May 27, 2020, 09:32:48 AM »

Online Who

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 38875
  • Tommy Points: 2078
I think my perfect 'hybrid' PG would be Gary Nash.  Payton's defensive chops, athleticism, and intensity mixed with Nash's all-time offensive brilliance and high level shooting.

I'd go with Jason Kidd for his non-scoring contributions (defense, rebounding, passing) combined with Steph Curry's shooting and scoring ability as my nominee for the perfect hybrid PG.
Boston Celtics

C: Marc Gasol, Nene, Jaren Jackson Jr
F: Pau Gasol, Rasheed Wallace
F: Kevin Durant, Danny Granger, R-Jefferson
G: Allan Houston, Jason Richardson, Sprewell
G: Steve Nash, John Stockton, Goran Dragic

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #67 on: May 27, 2020, 09:52:44 AM »

Offline Moranis

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23351
  • Tommy Points: 1119
Quote
Wilt is also by far the strongest player the league has ever seen.  It isn't close.  Wilt is an unrivaled physical specimen.

I'd wager Shaquille O'Neal would be laughing his head off if he read this.
Shaq was huge, but he was no where near as strong as Wilt.  The stories about Wilt are legendary.  Even in his 50's he was lifting with the best in the world.  I mean he benched 465 pounds at age 59 (and that is confirmed - during Conan in 1984, Arnold has said that Wilt was benching over 500 pounds).  Shaq at his best only topped out at like 450 pounds.  Contemporaries of Wilt have also expressed their admiration at Wilt's strength.  He was just a physical monster. 
Historical Draft - Portland Trailblazers
PG - Magic Johnson, Tony Parker
SG - Clyde Drexler, Dennis Johnson, Alvin Robertson
SF - James Worthy, Alex English
PF - Charles Barkley, Ben Wallace
C - Moses Malone, George Mikan, Brad Daugherty

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #68 on: May 27, 2020, 10:10:09 AM »

Offline Somebody

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5284
  • Tommy Points: 351
  • KANSEI DORIFUTO
There are so many deserving players but I'd settle on the following for an all-time starting 5

Oscar Robinson
Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Kevin Garnett
Bill Russell
Oscar Robinson would have been the GOAT! A hybrid of Oscar Robertson and David Robinson? That would have been special! :P

Gimme Bill Bird though. Bird's shooting/scoring and basketball IQ + Russell's athleticism, defense and unparalleled winning mentality. Just wow!
Michael Garnett please 8)

Haha!

Looks like I'm yet another victim of auto-correct.  I'm not even going to bother fixing my original post, it's too funny.
Yeah lol. This is my all-time hybrid starting 5:
Stephen Jordan
Michael Miller
Larry James
Kevin Nowitzki
Bill Abdul-Jabbar

Bill Abdul-Jabbar (the former Lewis Russell) is a totally unfair mash-up.

Combining 7-2 height, olympic-track-level jumping athleticism, super instinctual shot contention & team defense and unstoppable scoring touch from within 8 feet.  Averages 30+ points, 25 rebounds, 6 assists, 10 blocks and 5 steals per game.

Do you mean Wilt Chamberlin?
No. Wilt was never Kareem level tall and he definitely did not have the offensive game Kareem did (high volume scoring on unrivaled efficiency + astute passing). He also lagged behind Russell a bit defensively.
Wilt led the league in assists one season (8.6 also had a 7.8 season).  He led the league in FG% 9 times.  Kareem led the league in FG% 1 time and obviously never led the league in assists (topped out at 5.4).  Different eras so the game was different, but you are really underselling Wilt.  And Wilt was 7'1' while Kareem was 7'2".  Wilt is also by far the strongest player the league has ever seen.  It isn't close.  Wilt is an unrivaled physical specimen.  It is one of the reasons he played 48.5 mpg one season (he missed like 25 minutes the entire season).  Wilt was just an incredible athlete.
With plenty of Rondo assists inflating his assist tally, and FG% is a horrible metric to measure overall efficiency across eras. Admittedly Wilt had an amazing year where he balanced scoring and passing in '67 and broke rTS% while being the offensive figurehead of his squad (albeit that squad was incredibly stacked and likely inflated his box stats), but he immediately started assist hunting after that season (you can go check articles back then talking about his obsession with racking up assists after '67), he never truly found that scoring/passing equilibrium that other great offensive big men had. You're probably overrating Wilt way too much, he was amazing but Kareem was on a different level offensively, especially when you factor in how well their teams fared on offence.
Rockets PG: Westbrook, Rivers, Clemons SG: Harden, Gordon, McLemore
SF: House, Carroll, Caboclo PF: Covington, Green, Williams
C: Tucker, Hartenstein, Bender
Warriors PG: Curry, Jackson, Bowman SG: Thompson, Lee, Poole
SF: Wiggins, Okoro, Anderson PF: Green, Paschall, MKG
C: Looney, Chriss, Smiley

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #69 on: May 27, 2020, 08:04:41 PM »

Online Csfan1984

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6770
  • Tommy Points: 151
Quote
Wilt is also by far the strongest player the league has ever seen.  It isn't close.  Wilt is an unrivaled physical specimen.

I'd wager Shaquille O'Neal would be laughing his head off if he read this.
Shaq was huge, but he was no where near as strong as Wilt.  The stories about Wilt are legendary.  Even in his 50's he was lifting with the best in the world.  I mean he benched 465 pounds at age 59 (and that is confirmed - during Conan in 1984, Arnold has said that Wilt was benching over 500 pounds).  Shaq at his best only topped out at like 450 pounds.  Contemporaries of Wilt have also expressed their admiration at Wilt's strength.  He was just a physical monster.
+1 Wilt would have abused Shaq. The guy got stronger with age where Shaq just got fat. Young Shaq was stronger than young Wilt but was less athletic. Prime age no contest Wilt is superior across the board. Post retirement Wilt got jacked and Shaq got even more fat.

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #70 on: May 27, 2020, 08:22:21 PM »

Online Csfan1984

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6770
  • Tommy Points: 151
There are so many deserving players but I'd settle on the following for an all-time starting 5

Oscar Robinson
Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Kevin Garnett
Bill Russell
Oscar Robinson would have been the GOAT! A hybrid of Oscar Robertson and David Robinson? That would have been special! :P

Gimme Bill Bird though. Bird's shooting/scoring and basketball IQ + Russell's athleticism, defense and unparalleled winning mentality. Just wow!
Michael Garnett please 8)

Haha!

Looks like I'm yet another victim of auto-correct.  I'm not even going to bother fixing my original post, it's too funny.
Yeah lol. This is my all-time hybrid starting 5:
Stephen Jordan
Michael Miller
Larry James
Kevin Nowitzki
Bill Abdul-Jabbar

Bill Abdul-Jabbar (the former Lewis Russell) is a totally unfair mash-up.

Combining 7-2 height, olympic-track-level jumping athleticism, super instinctual shot contention & team defense and unstoppable scoring touch from within 8 feet.  Averages 30+ points, 25 rebounds, 6 assists, 10 blocks and 5 steals per game.

Do you mean Wilt Chamberlin?
No. Wilt was never Kareem level tall and he definitely did not have the offensive game Kareem did (high volume scoring on unrivaled efficiency + astute passing). He also lagged behind Russell a bit defensively.
Wilt led the league in assists one season (8.6 also had a 7.8 season).  He led the league in FG% 9 times.  Kareem led the league in FG% 1 time and obviously never led the league in assists (topped out at 5.4).  Different eras so the game was different, but you are really underselling Wilt.  And Wilt was 7'1' while Kareem was 7'2".  Wilt is also by far the strongest player the league has ever seen.  It isn't close.  Wilt is an unrivaled physical specimen.  It is one of the reasons he played 48.5 mpg one season (he missed like 25 minutes the entire season).  Wilt was just an incredible athlete.
With plenty of Rondo assists inflating his assist tally, and FG% is a horrible metric to measure overall efficiency across eras. Admittedly Wilt had an amazing year where he balanced scoring and passing in '67 and broke rTS% while being the offensive figurehead of his squad (albeit that squad was incredibly stacked and likely inflated his box stats), but he immediately started assist hunting after that season (you can go check articles back then talking about his obsession with racking up assists after '67), he never truly found that scoring/passing equilibrium that other great offensive big men had. You're probably overrating Wilt way too much, he was amazing but Kareem was on a different level offensively, especially when you factor in how well their teams fared on offence.
He was playing with younger stars and he was past his prime when he became an assist machine. He is on the record saying that the team mattered not how many points he scored.

When the media said all he could do was score, he became an elite defender. They said he couldn't pass, he became an elite passer. When they said he only started passing because he couldn't score any more, he put on a blitz of scoring. The man was a freak which is why in his era he put up crazy numbers. Today he could probably avg the same. In the 90s though I feel his numbers would drop some. 90s had a ton of solid big men and players across each position were big and fast and more importantly were allowed more defensive liberties.

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #71 on: May 27, 2020, 10:46:08 PM »

Offline Somebody

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5284
  • Tommy Points: 351
  • KANSEI DORIFUTO
There are so many deserving players but I'd settle on the following for an all-time starting 5

Oscar Robinson
Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Kevin Garnett
Bill Russell
Oscar Robinson would have been the GOAT! A hybrid of Oscar Robertson and David Robinson? That would have been special! :P

Gimme Bill Bird though. Bird's shooting/scoring and basketball IQ + Russell's athleticism, defense and unparalleled winning mentality. Just wow!
Michael Garnett please 8)

Haha!

Looks like I'm yet another victim of auto-correct.  I'm not even going to bother fixing my original post, it's too funny.
Yeah lol. This is my all-time hybrid starting 5:
Stephen Jordan
Michael Miller
Larry James
Kevin Nowitzki
Bill Abdul-Jabbar

Bill Abdul-Jabbar (the former Lewis Russell) is a totally unfair mash-up.

Combining 7-2 height, olympic-track-level jumping athleticism, super instinctual shot contention & team defense and unstoppable scoring touch from within 8 feet.  Averages 30+ points, 25 rebounds, 6 assists, 10 blocks and 5 steals per game.

Do you mean Wilt Chamberlin?
No. Wilt was never Kareem level tall and he definitely did not have the offensive game Kareem did (high volume scoring on unrivaled efficiency + astute passing). He also lagged behind Russell a bit defensively.
Wilt led the league in assists one season (8.6 also had a 7.8 season).  He led the league in FG% 9 times.  Kareem led the league in FG% 1 time and obviously never led the league in assists (topped out at 5.4).  Different eras so the game was different, but you are really underselling Wilt.  And Wilt was 7'1' while Kareem was 7'2".  Wilt is also by far the strongest player the league has ever seen.  It isn't close.  Wilt is an unrivaled physical specimen.  It is one of the reasons he played 48.5 mpg one season (he missed like 25 minutes the entire season).  Wilt was just an incredible athlete.
With plenty of Rondo assists inflating his assist tally, and FG% is a horrible metric to measure overall efficiency across eras. Admittedly Wilt had an amazing year where he balanced scoring and passing in '67 and broke rTS% while being the offensive figurehead of his squad (albeit that squad was incredibly stacked and likely inflated his box stats), but he immediately started assist hunting after that season (you can go check articles back then talking about his obsession with racking up assists after '67), he never truly found that scoring/passing equilibrium that other great offensive big men had. You're probably overrating Wilt way too much, he was amazing but Kareem was on a different level offensively, especially when you factor in how well their teams fared on offence.
He was playing with younger stars and he was past his prime when he became an assist machine. He is on the record saying that the team mattered not how many points he scored.

When the media said all he could do was score, he became an elite defender. They said he couldn't pass, he became an elite passer. When they said he only started passing because he couldn't score any more, he put on a blitz of scoring. The man was a freak which is why in his era he put up crazy numbers. Today he could probably avg the same. In the 90s though I feel his numbers would drop some. 90s had a ton of solid big men and players across each position were big and fast and more importantly were allowed more defensive liberties.
Not really, his 1967 campaign is regarded by many as his finest season. He did start to decline after that amazing year though.

And that just screams narrative to me, Wilt was a dominant defender from day one. He "couldn't" pass because he was never really could balance his scoring and passing except for 1967 (and even then it wasn't truly a perfect equilibrium) and he never really scored in bunches again after he made the shift into a Tyson Chandler/Rondo hybrid on steroids in his latter years (still an MVP calibre player though). You can always check the team results if you don't buy this, Wilt's early 60s teams were defensively dominant and they only started getting good when he went to a loaded Sixers team and found that balance under Hannum while the Lakers offences were powered by Jerry West.
Rockets PG: Westbrook, Rivers, Clemons SG: Harden, Gordon, McLemore
SF: House, Carroll, Caboclo PF: Covington, Green, Williams
C: Tucker, Hartenstein, Bender
Warriors PG: Curry, Jackson, Bowman SG: Thompson, Lee, Poole
SF: Wiggins, Okoro, Anderson PF: Green, Paschall, MKG
C: Looney, Chriss, Smiley

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #72 on: May 27, 2020, 11:01:42 PM »

Offline Moranis

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23351
  • Tommy Points: 1119
There are so many deserving players but I'd settle on the following for an all-time starting 5

Oscar Robinson
Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Kevin Garnett
Bill Russell
Oscar Robinson would have been the GOAT! A hybrid of Oscar Robertson and David Robinson? That would have been special! :P

Gimme Bill Bird though. Bird's shooting/scoring and basketball IQ + Russell's athleticism, defense and unparalleled winning mentality. Just wow!
Michael Garnett please 8)

Haha!

Looks like I'm yet another victim of auto-correct.  I'm not even going to bother fixing my original post, it's too funny.
Yeah lol. This is my all-time hybrid starting 5:
Stephen Jordan
Michael Miller
Larry James
Kevin Nowitzki
Bill Abdul-Jabbar

Bill Abdul-Jabbar (the former Lewis Russell) is a totally unfair mash-up.

Combining 7-2 height, olympic-track-level jumping athleticism, super instinctual shot contention & team defense and unstoppable scoring touch from within 8 feet.  Averages 30+ points, 25 rebounds, 6 assists, 10 blocks and 5 steals per game.

Do you mean Wilt Chamberlin?
No. Wilt was never Kareem level tall and he definitely did not have the offensive game Kareem did (high volume scoring on unrivaled efficiency + astute passing). He also lagged behind Russell a bit defensively.
Wilt led the league in assists one season (8.6 also had a 7.8 season).  He led the league in FG% 9 times.  Kareem led the league in FG% 1 time and obviously never led the league in assists (topped out at 5.4).  Different eras so the game was different, but you are really underselling Wilt.  And Wilt was 7'1' while Kareem was 7'2".  Wilt is also by far the strongest player the league has ever seen.  It isn't close.  Wilt is an unrivaled physical specimen.  It is one of the reasons he played 48.5 mpg one season (he missed like 25 minutes the entire season).  Wilt was just an incredible athlete.
With plenty of Rondo assists inflating his assist tally, and FG% is a horrible metric to measure overall efficiency across eras. Admittedly Wilt had an amazing year where he balanced scoring and passing in '67 and broke rTS% while being the offensive figurehead of his squad (albeit that squad was incredibly stacked and likely inflated his box stats), but he immediately started assist hunting after that season (you can go check articles back then talking about his obsession with racking up assists after '67), he never truly found that scoring/passing equilibrium that other great offensive big men had. You're probably overrating Wilt way too much, he was amazing but Kareem was on a different level offensively, especially when you factor in how well their teams fared on offence.
He was playing with younger stars and he was past his prime when he became an assist machine. He is on the record saying that the team mattered not how many points he scored.

When the media said all he could do was score, he became an elite defender. They said he couldn't pass, he became an elite passer. When they said he only started passing because he couldn't score any more, he put on a blitz of scoring. The man was a freak which is why in his era he put up crazy numbers. Today he could probably avg the same. In the 90s though I feel his numbers would drop some. 90s had a ton of solid big men and players across each position were big and fast and more importantly were allowed more defensive liberties.
Not really, his 1967 campaign is regarded by many as his finest season. He did start to decline after that amazing year though.

And that just screams narrative to me, Wilt was a dominant defender from day one. He "couldn't" pass because he was never really could balance his scoring and passing except for 1967 (and even then it wasn't truly a perfect equilibrium) and he never really scored in bunches again after he made the shift into a Tyson Chandler/Rondo hybrid on steroids in his latter years (still an MVP calibre player though). You can always check the team results if you don't buy this, Wilt's early 60s teams were defensively dominant and they only started getting good when he went to a loaded Sixers team and found that balance under Hannum while the Lakers offences were powered by Jerry West.
Wilt scored early on because his coach asked him to.  When he went to the Sixers and his coach asked to be more team oriented and pass more, he did exactly that.  Wilt did what his coaches asked him to do, which was mostly based on the talent (or lack thereof) that he was playing with.  There is a reason that when Wilt joined a team with real talent around him, they were the greatest team the league had seen to that point and blitzed the Celtics in 5 games. 
Historical Draft - Portland Trailblazers
PG - Magic Johnson, Tony Parker
SG - Clyde Drexler, Dennis Johnson, Alvin Robertson
SF - James Worthy, Alex English
PF - Charles Barkley, Ben Wallace
C - Moses Malone, George Mikan, Brad Daugherty

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #73 on: May 28, 2020, 03:27:58 AM »

Offline Somebody

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5284
  • Tommy Points: 351
  • KANSEI DORIFUTO
There are so many deserving players but I'd settle on the following for an all-time starting 5

Oscar Robinson
Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Kevin Garnett
Bill Russell
Oscar Robinson would have been the GOAT! A hybrid of Oscar Robertson and David Robinson? That would have been special! :P

Gimme Bill Bird though. Bird's shooting/scoring and basketball IQ + Russell's athleticism, defense and unparalleled winning mentality. Just wow!
Michael Garnett please 8)

Haha!

Looks like I'm yet another victim of auto-correct.  I'm not even going to bother fixing my original post, it's too funny.
Yeah lol. This is my all-time hybrid starting 5:
Stephen Jordan
Michael Miller
Larry James
Kevin Nowitzki
Bill Abdul-Jabbar

Bill Abdul-Jabbar (the former Lewis Russell) is a totally unfair mash-up.

Combining 7-2 height, olympic-track-level jumping athleticism, super instinctual shot contention & team defense and unstoppable scoring touch from within 8 feet.  Averages 30+ points, 25 rebounds, 6 assists, 10 blocks and 5 steals per game.

Do you mean Wilt Chamberlin?
No. Wilt was never Kareem level tall and he definitely did not have the offensive game Kareem did (high volume scoring on unrivaled efficiency + astute passing). He also lagged behind Russell a bit defensively.
Wilt led the league in assists one season (8.6 also had a 7.8 season).  He led the league in FG% 9 times.  Kareem led the league in FG% 1 time and obviously never led the league in assists (topped out at 5.4).  Different eras so the game was different, but you are really underselling Wilt.  And Wilt was 7'1' while Kareem was 7'2".  Wilt is also by far the strongest player the league has ever seen.  It isn't close.  Wilt is an unrivaled physical specimen.  It is one of the reasons he played 48.5 mpg one season (he missed like 25 minutes the entire season).  Wilt was just an incredible athlete.
With plenty of Rondo assists inflating his assist tally, and FG% is a horrible metric to measure overall efficiency across eras. Admittedly Wilt had an amazing year where he balanced scoring and passing in '67 and broke rTS% while being the offensive figurehead of his squad (albeit that squad was incredibly stacked and likely inflated his box stats), but he immediately started assist hunting after that season (you can go check articles back then talking about his obsession with racking up assists after '67), he never truly found that scoring/passing equilibrium that other great offensive big men had. You're probably overrating Wilt way too much, he was amazing but Kareem was on a different level offensively, especially when you factor in how well their teams fared on offence.
He was playing with younger stars and he was past his prime when he became an assist machine. He is on the record saying that the team mattered not how many points he scored.

When the media said all he could do was score, he became an elite defender. They said he couldn't pass, he became an elite passer. When they said he only started passing because he couldn't score any more, he put on a blitz of scoring. The man was a freak which is why in his era he put up crazy numbers. Today he could probably avg the same. In the 90s though I feel his numbers would drop some. 90s had a ton of solid big men and players across each position were big and fast and more importantly were allowed more defensive liberties.
Not really, his 1967 campaign is regarded by many as his finest season. He did start to decline after that amazing year though.

And that just screams narrative to me, Wilt was a dominant defender from day one. He "couldn't" pass because he was never really could balance his scoring and passing except for 1967 (and even then it wasn't truly a perfect equilibrium) and he never really scored in bunches again after he made the shift into a Tyson Chandler/Rondo hybrid on steroids in his latter years (still an MVP calibre player though). You can always check the team results if you don't buy this, Wilt's early 60s teams were defensively dominant and they only started getting good when he went to a loaded Sixers team and found that balance under Hannum while the Lakers offences were powered by Jerry West.
Wilt scored early on because his coach asked him to.  When he went to the Sixers and his coach asked to be more team oriented and pass more, he did exactly that.  Wilt did what his coaches asked him to do, which was mostly based on the talent (or lack thereof) that he was playing with.  There is a reason that when Wilt joined a team with real talent around him, they were the greatest team the league had seen to that point and blitzed the Celtics in 5 games.
And the results were not pretty until he shifted to that global approach, which pretty much takes those 50PPG seasons out of the conversation as his best offensive season even when he played with decent talent around him in Golden State - he had teammates like Paul Arizin, Guy Rodgers, Tom Gola, Nate Thurmond, etc. And the reason for blitzing the Celtics doesn't solely rest on Wilt (although he did up his game that year), that Sixers team was unbelievably stacked: Hal Greer, Chet Walker and Billy Cunningham formed a triumvirate that was strong enough to contend for a title by themselves (the 76ers were still a premier club in 1969 after Wilt's departure, ranking 3rd in SRS on the back of an excellent offence powered by that trio).
Rockets PG: Westbrook, Rivers, Clemons SG: Harden, Gordon, McLemore
SF: House, Carroll, Caboclo PF: Covington, Green, Williams
C: Tucker, Hartenstein, Bender
Warriors PG: Curry, Jackson, Bowman SG: Thompson, Lee, Poole
SF: Wiggins, Okoro, Anderson PF: Green, Paschall, MKG
C: Looney, Chriss, Smiley

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #74 on: May 28, 2020, 05:13:45 AM »

Online Csfan1984

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6770
  • Tommy Points: 151
There are so many deserving players but I'd settle on the following for an all-time starting 5

Oscar Robinson
Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Kevin Garnett
Bill Russell
Oscar Robinson would have been the GOAT! A hybrid of Oscar Robertson and David Robinson? That would have been special! :P

Gimme Bill Bird though. Bird's shooting/scoring and basketball IQ + Russell's athleticism, defense and unparalleled winning mentality. Just wow!
Michael Garnett please 8)

Haha!

Looks like I'm yet another victim of auto-correct.  I'm not even going to bother fixing my original post, it's too funny.
Yeah lol. This is my all-time hybrid starting 5:
Stephen Jordan
Michael Miller
Larry James
Kevin Nowitzki
Bill Abdul-Jabbar

Bill Abdul-Jabbar (the former Lewis Russell) is a totally unfair mash-up.

Combining 7-2 height, olympic-track-level jumping athleticism, super instinctual shot contention & team defense and unstoppable scoring touch from within 8 feet.  Averages 30+ points, 25 rebounds, 6 assists, 10 blocks and 5 steals per game.

Do you mean Wilt Chamberlin?
No. Wilt was never Kareem level tall and he definitely did not have the offensive game Kareem did (high volume scoring on unrivaled efficiency + astute passing). He also lagged behind Russell a bit defensively.
Wilt led the league in assists one season (8.6 also had a 7.8 season).  He led the league in FG% 9 times.  Kareem led the league in FG% 1 time and obviously never led the league in assists (topped out at 5.4).  Different eras so the game was different, but you are really underselling Wilt.  And Wilt was 7'1' while Kareem was 7'2".  Wilt is also by far the strongest player the league has ever seen.  It isn't close.  Wilt is an unrivaled physical specimen.  It is one of the reasons he played 48.5 mpg one season (he missed like 25 minutes the entire season).  Wilt was just an incredible athlete.
With plenty of Rondo assists inflating his assist tally, and FG% is a horrible metric to measure overall efficiency across eras. Admittedly Wilt had an amazing year where he balanced scoring and passing in '67 and broke rTS% while being the offensive figurehead of his squad (albeit that squad was incredibly stacked and likely inflated his box stats), but he immediately started assist hunting after that season (you can go check articles back then talking about his obsession with racking up assists after '67), he never truly found that scoring/passing equilibrium that other great offensive big men had. You're probably overrating Wilt way too much, he was amazing but Kareem was on a different level offensively, especially when you factor in how well their teams fared on offence.
He was playing with younger stars and he was past his prime when he became an assist machine. He is on the record saying that the team mattered not how many points he scored.

When the media said all he could do was score, he became an elite defender. They said he couldn't pass, he became an elite passer. When they said he only started passing because he couldn't score any more, he put on a blitz of scoring. The man was a freak which is why in his era he put up crazy numbers. Today he could probably avg the same. In the 90s though I feel his numbers would drop some. 90s had a ton of solid big men and players across each position were big and fast and more importantly were allowed more defensive liberties.
Not really, his 1967 campaign is regarded by many as his finest season. He did start to decline after that amazing year though.

And that just screams narrative to me, Wilt was a dominant defender from day one. He "couldn't" pass because he was never really could balance his scoring and passing except for 1967 (and even then it wasn't truly a perfect equilibrium) and he never really scored in bunches again after he made the shift into a Tyson Chandler/Rondo hybrid on steroids in his latter years (still an MVP calibre player though). You can always check the team results if you don't buy this, Wilt's early 60s teams were defensively dominant and they only started getting good when he went to a loaded Sixers team and found that balance under Hannum while the Lakers offences were powered by Jerry West.
Wilt scored early on because his coach asked him to.  When he went to the Sixers and his coach asked to be more team oriented and pass more, he did exactly that.  Wilt did what his coaches asked him to do, which was mostly based on the talent (or lack thereof) that he was playing with.  There is a reason that when Wilt joined a team with real talent around him, they were the greatest team the league had seen to that point and blitzed the Celtics in 5 games.
And the results were not pretty until he shifted to that global approach, which pretty much takes those 50PPG seasons out of the conversation as his best offensive season even when he played with decent talent around him in Golden State - he had teammates like Paul Arizin, Guy Rodgers, Tom Gola, Nate Thurmond, etc. And the reason for blitzing the Celtics doesn't solely rest on Wilt (although he did up his game that year), that Sixers team was unbelievably stacked: Hal Greer, Chet Walker and Billy Cunningham formed a triumvirate that was strong enough to contend for a title by themselves (the 76ers were still a premier club in 1969 after Wilt's departure, ranking 3rd in SRS on the back of an excellent offence powered by that trio).
Isn't that what I said he became a assist machine when he had younger stars?
By all accounts Wilt could do it all. Your complaint boils down to he wasn't doing everything in the box score all the time. That's nitpicking a ton. We credit players like Russell and Kareem for playing their specific roles on teams yet they didn't show the same ability night in and out across all the stats either. Why doesn't Wilt get the same love for filling a role?