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Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2020, 10:46:53 AM »

Offline Celtics17

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My top all time has 27 titles between them! They are players from the 60's and mainly the 80's. I will take this team to battle against any you can assemble. I'm not getting into a bench, just the starting 5.

Wilt
MJ
Magic
Russ
Bird

Yeah, I know you can argue I have two starting centers but Wilt and Russ are both plenty fast enough to guard all the way to the three point line. MJ is obviously my second best scorer behine Wilt and Bird and Magic can run the team and out think their opponents

If you are playing this team you better have a great outside shooting team to even stand a chance. The probelm you are going to have is you arent scoring around the basket, meet Wilt/Russ, and you arent getting rebounds either.

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2020, 01:06:44 PM »

Offline Somebody

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I think Duncan is often underrated by the tiniest amount (frequently rated below Kobe, because of the LA hype machine), but KG has it far worse. He was every bit as good at playing the game as Timmy and Kobe, he was just stuck in a cesspit franchise (anyone remember Joe Smith?) That people rate Chuck and even flipping Anthony Davis ahead of KG is a travesty.

I reckon had KG been picked by even a remotely operational franchise, like the Raptors or the Heat (both had picks near where KG was taken) his career would be viewed in a different light.

I always find exercises like these difficult. I have top 5’s for every spot, and basically draw from that depending upon how I feel. I’ve emboldened the ones who I think have an argument for GOAT at their position.

PG: Magic / Oscar / Stockton / Curry / Paul

SG: Jordan / Kobe / West / Wade / Drexler

SF: Bird / LeBron / Durant / Erving / Baylor

PF: Duncan / KG / Malone / Dirk / Barkley

C: KAJ / Russell / Wilt / Shaq / Hakeem or Admiral, legit tossup
The stripping of multiple first round draft picks hurt, but the Wolves frequently drafted rubbish when they had their picks. I think their 2006 or 2007 squads (forgot which year specifically) had a supporting cast that can contend for the title of worst team of all time, their roster was basically made up of fringe NBA players or players who weren't even NBA calibre.

Also interesting that you had Stockton as a candidate, I don't think his peak was as good as his counting stats suggested (a good amount of his passes were Rondo assists and he really couldn't ramp up his offence even as a second option behind Malone). But he did have fantastic longevity so you might be weighing it really heavily in your evaluations, which is reasonable.
Yeah, and despite what Moranis said, it had nothing to do with KG. In his pre-Celtic playoff career Garnett averaged 22/13.5/5 with DPOY caliber defence - hardly as if he was letting the team down. Minnesota was, and apparently still is, a dumpster fire.

Nailed it there really. His freakish, almost unparalleled longevity (besides AC Green & K Malone I guess), efficiency, and simple but super effective play style was great. His peak was not as high as any of the other 4 I listed, but he played like 18 years and barely missed a beat. Plus, gotta love the unathletic pest at PG.
Yeah ikr, his defence was excellent from start to finish, his DRAPM numbers at the end of his career were fantastic.

And Moranis just loves his box numbers and raw team results without taking context into account lol. Garnett's supporting casts were woefully inadequate compared to his opponents in Minnesota until the arrival of Spree and Cassell in '04, he only faced two teams with an SRS below 4 from '97-'03: the '97 Rockets with an old but still excellent trio in Hakeem/Drexler/Barkley and the '03 Lakers that had a bunch of off-court issues that season but still had Kobe/Shaq. As for his box stats, Garnett's stats were arguably deflated from facing superior competition in most of his playoff games with little to no support and he rightfully exploded when he finally got adequate support in Cassell and Spree. I also love how managing to miraculously win a game against the Lakers after losing Sam Cassell "proves" that Garnett lacked the #1 mentality (actually what is a #1 mentality?!!! :laugh:) when this was basically his post-Cassell rotation:

PG: Kevin Garnett, Darrick Martin
SG: Latrell Sprewell, Fred Hoiberg
SF: Trenton Hassell, Wally World
PF: Kevin Garnett, Mark Madsen
C: Ervin "not-so-magical" Johnson, Kandy Man
And yes Garnett had to play point for the Wolves after Cassell went down besides manning the 4 spot on defence. But "hurr durr where is muh 30PPG/20RPG/15APG/5BPG/3SPG slash line and the series win!" :laugh:. Garnett might not have had that next level scoring prowess, but he was still a darn good #1 scorer and would unquestionably have the GOAT peak if he actually had that top tier scoring ability.
2020 Celticsstrong Historical Draft - Toronto Raptors:
PG: Kyle Lowry, Kemba Walker, Patrick Beverley
SG: Vince Carter, Donovan Mitchell, Malcolm Brogdon
SF: Khris Middleton, Luol Deng, Danilo Gallinari
PF: Kevin Garnett, Antawn Jamison
C: David Robinson, Vlade Divac, Shawn Bradley

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2020, 01:25:09 PM »

Offline Somebody

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No Curry at the 1
Steph is hands down the better shooter (imo, the best ever). Magic and Oscar were better at pretty much everything else.
Hm I disagree, I think Steph is infinitely better off-ball and is the best scorer out of the three even though Oscar isn't that far off. Also think Steph is around Oscar's level as a playmaker if not better? Oscar had huge assist numbers but he was more of a facilitator than a creator, the bulk of his offensive impact came from his amazing isolation scoring.

no West at the 2? Mind if I know your reasoning?
At 6'2''/6'3'', I consider West more of a PG. At the very least, I bet he would have been exclusively a PG in today's game. From what I've read, I'd rather build a team around West rather than around Kobe. Having said that, I've only seen West play in short youtube videos. I don't know enough about his game.
West was actually 6'4.5 without shoes with a 6'9 wingspan lol.

He was also a SG in the 60s and I think it would stay the same even if he played in this era. Also agree with your opinion that peak West>peak Kobe. I haven't watched a ton of his games, but his ability to score and create even in that era always stood out to me from the little I've seen, his jumper was a deadly counter to his driving ability and he balanced it with excellent passing.

What disrespect? People routinely slot him in their top 10 lists
This is my point right there. The way I see it, Duncan is our generation's Bill Russell. If you say Russ is a top 10 player, you are underselling him. He is a GOAT candidate. Imo, the same goes for Duncan.
No offence, but I don't see it. Russell's 13 years were basically his prime in an era where careers were considerably shorter and he had a stronger peak/prime than Duncan that more than makes up for Duncan's edge in longevity. I see Duncan in the next tier of greats alongside bigs like Shaq/Hakeem/Garnett/Wilt, which is still amazing, just not a GOAT candidate.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2020, 01:36:40 PM by Somebody »
2020 Celticsstrong Historical Draft - Toronto Raptors:
PG: Kyle Lowry, Kemba Walker, Patrick Beverley
SG: Vince Carter, Donovan Mitchell, Malcolm Brogdon
SF: Khris Middleton, Luol Deng, Danilo Gallinari
PF: Kevin Garnett, Antawn Jamison
C: David Robinson, Vlade Divac, Shawn Bradley

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2020, 01:54:52 PM »

Offline Moranis

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The 2000 playoffs 1st round, Wolves v. Blazers series I think illustrates my point with KG quite well (and this was KG's 5th season and not his first trip to the post-season).  Terrell Brandon out performed him all series long.  That shouldn't happen.  Brandon was an all star level talent, but he should never outperform someone like Garnett for a series.  And to be clear the advanced metrics and things like bball-refs GMSC support that contention (it also really counters the argument that KG never had anyone good to play with).   

To illustrate my point on KG, here are KG's 4th quarters in that series.

Game 1 - Blazers win by 3
1-5 for 2 points, 2 turnovers, 4 rebounds, 1 assist and -7

Game 2 - Blazers win by 4
1-4 for 7 points, 4 rebounds, 3 assists and +5

Game 3 - Wolves win by 7
2-4 for 4 points, 1 turnover, 4 rebound, 3 assists and +8

Game 4 - Blazers win by 8 (in Minny)
1-7 for 4 points, 3 rebounds, 2 assists and -15

That is not what you need from the guy that should be your best player in a close series (5 of 20 total in the 4th quarter = awful).  That isn't the shot total of a #1 scorer or a guy you can really rely on.  And that isn't atypical.  Garnett was always a passive star.  He just never had it in him to put a team on his back and take over games and because of that his teams were always susceptible to underperforming both in the regular season and in the post-season and that is a large reason why his teams generally underperformed.  And for the record, Lebron was 7 of 19 in the 6 4th quarters against Dallas and has rightfully been brutalized for that, but that was much more an aberration in Lebron's career than a pattern.  With KG it is a pretty consistent pattern.  That isn't to say KG didn't have great games and great 4th quarters, he did, but far too often in his career he looked like he did against the Blazers when it really mattered.

Garnett's skill set is perfect as a #2.  Probably the best #2 in history, but that is what he was and that is why he will never really be in the conversation with Duncan.  Duncan was just better.  Duncan was more consistent.  Duncan took a team with Derek Anderson as the 2nd best player to the WCF.  Garnett never could have done that as he just wasn't that type of player.
Historical Draft - Portland Trailblazers
PG - Magic Johnson, Tony Parker
SG - Clyde Drexler, Dennis Johnson, Alvin Robertson
SF - James Worthy, Alex English
PF - Charles Barkley, Ben Wallace
C - Moses Malone, George Mikan, Brad Daugherty

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2020, 10:55:47 PM »

Offline Somebody

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The 2000 playoffs 1st round, Wolves v. Blazers series I think illustrates my point with KG quite well (and this was KG's 5th season and not his first trip to the post-season).  Terrell Brandon out performed him all series long.  That shouldn't happen.  Brandon was an all star level talent, but he should never outperform someone like Garnett for a series.  And to be clear the advanced metrics and things like bball-refs GMSC support that contention (it also really counters the argument that KG never had anyone good to play with).   

To illustrate my point on KG, here are KG's 4th quarters in that series.

Game 1 - Blazers win by 3
1-5 for 2 points, 2 turnovers, 4 rebounds, 1 assist and -7

Game 2 - Blazers win by 4
1-4 for 7 points, 4 rebounds, 3 assists and +5

Game 3 - Wolves win by 7
2-4 for 4 points, 1 turnover, 4 rebound, 3 assists and +8

Game 4 - Blazers win by 8 (in Minny)
1-7 for 4 points, 3 rebounds, 2 assists and -15

That is not what you need from the guy that should be your best player in a close series (5 of 20 total in the 4th quarter = awful).  That isn't the shot total of a #1 scorer or a guy you can really rely on.  And that isn't atypical.  Garnett was always a passive star.  He just never had it in him to put a team on his back and take over games and because of that his teams were always susceptible to underperforming both in the regular season and in the post-season and that is a large reason why his teams generally underperformed.  And for the record, Lebron was 7 of 19 in the 6 4th quarters against Dallas and has rightfully been brutalized for that, but that was much more an aberration in Lebron's career than a pattern.  With KG it is a pretty consistent pattern.  That isn't to say KG didn't have great games and great 4th quarters, he did, but far too often in his career he looked like he did against the Blazers when it really mattered.

Garnett's skill set is perfect as a #2.  Probably the best #2 in history, but that is what he was and that is why he will never really be in the conversation with Duncan.  Duncan was just better.  Duncan was more consistent.  Duncan took a team with Derek Anderson as the 2nd best player to the WCF.  Garnett never could have done that as he just wasn't that type of player.
What could he have done against the Blazers? Drop 20/20/10 against a frontline of Brian Grant, Rasheed Wallace and Arvydas Sabonis that held peak Shaquille O'Neal to 19.2 points per 36 on 53.2% TS when he had much better help in Kobe and others? Obviously KG didn't shine in the box score (he did average pretty much 19/11/9, but it was on very poor efficiency), but his spacing, screen setting, passing as well as gravity as a post scorer (obviously not on the level of Shaq, but he was still a very good post scorer) helped his teammates a lot during that series when the Blazers frontcourt was able to key in on him, that was why Terrell Brandon put up those gaudy numbers that you're not giving KG credit for. You're just keying in on series where he faced incredible teams with inadequate supporting casts, even Duncan struggled in similar situations. Know what made the difference in raw results? Adequate help and a ton of luck.

You're also right that KG is best as a T-1/1B option on offence, but Duncan was even worse: he was a mediocre #1 (not better than KG in this regard tbh unless you truly value scoring 27-28 per 75 on good but not great efficiency with pretty mediocre playmaking) and an alright #2. The ability to be a #1 has been overrated for decades, you want those excellent T-1/1B/2 options over a meh #1 because a meh #1 can only take you so far, while an excellent T-1 option can thrive next to any sort of talent that can create and shoulder a decent offensive load at an alright level, giving teams a much higher ceiling on offence.

And game score should be retired alongside PER lol, it's hardly a reliable metric in general, much less advanced. KG's teammates absolutely stunk for the calibre of team Minny was during his 12 year-run with the exception of '04, but even that team was buoyed by how good KG was.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 08:22:11 AM by Somebody »
2020 Celticsstrong Historical Draft - Toronto Raptors:
PG: Kyle Lowry, Kemba Walker, Patrick Beverley
SG: Vince Carter, Donovan Mitchell, Malcolm Brogdon
SF: Khris Middleton, Luol Deng, Danilo Gallinari
PF: Kevin Garnett, Antawn Jamison
C: David Robinson, Vlade Divac, Shawn Bradley

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2020, 09:02:29 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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I lean towards putting together a team around Jordan and Wilt. So Curry and Bird are in for spacing mainly . I need defense and a guy that can help in different schemes as well so KG is in.

PG-Curry
SG-MJ
SF-Bird
PF-KG
C-Wilt

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2020, 09:44:27 AM »

Offline Somebody

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I lean towards putting together a team around Jordan and Wilt. So Curry and Bird are in for spacing mainly . I need defense and a guy that can help in different schemes as well so KG is in.

PG-Curry
SG-MJ
SF-Bird
PF-KG
C-Wilt
That's a really good lineup there, and finally some Curry and KG love lol.
2020 Celticsstrong Historical Draft - Toronto Raptors:
PG: Kyle Lowry, Kemba Walker, Patrick Beverley
SG: Vince Carter, Donovan Mitchell, Malcolm Brogdon
SF: Khris Middleton, Luol Deng, Danilo Gallinari
PF: Kevin Garnett, Antawn Jamison
C: David Robinson, Vlade Divac, Shawn Bradley

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2020, 10:52:57 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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I lean towards putting together a team around Jordan and Wilt. So Curry and Bird are in for spacing mainly . I need defense and a guy that can help in different schemes as well so KG is in.

PG-Curry
SG-MJ
SF-Bird
PF-KG
C-Wilt
That's a really good lineup there, and finally some Curry and KG love lol.
Thanks. I didn't want to choose best player at the position but actually best team make up.

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2020, 11:39:36 AM »

Offline RockinRyA

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And here's Paul Pierce's top 5 (not starting 5):



People hate on PP for not including LeBron. Personally speaking, I got Bron in the same tier as MJ, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Oscar and Duncan. I'm fine with opting for MJ/Kareem/Russell/Magic over Bron. My only objection to his list would be Kobe.
Pierce looks like a fool listing Kobe & Magic ahead of Bron. Makes him come off as having been beaten by LeBron in more ways than one, lol.

Hes such a bad analyst its not even funny.
his reasoning was pretty bad, basically Lebron created a team in Miami and then again in Cleveland.  Just sounds like a huge hypocrite since you know Pierce's title team was manufactured the prior off season as well (I suspect he wouldn't have the same criticisms of Garnett as he did with Lebron).  The other analysts on the show didn't even really bother with his nonsense as they all just took it as nonsense.  Heck Magic would have gone back to school if the Lakers didn't win the coin toss for the 1st pick.  He has said this several times over the years.  In other words, he wanted to play with Kareem.  Kareem won his title in Milwaukee in Oscar's 1st season (i.e. he joined the team and wasn't on it) and didn't win any others without Magic.  Kobe demanded to go to LA after he was drafted by Charlotte.  He joined a team with Shaq.  His 2nd two, the Lakers were a mid-level team until they acquired Pau at the trade deadline.  They then went on a 3 season tear.  The analysis is just nonsense and that is the problem with it. 

The thing is, I think you could at least argue with a straight face that Lebron is outside the top 5, but Pierce just had this nonsensical argument.  And just to be clear, I don't think it would really be that difficult to argue that MJ, Bill, Wilt, and Kareem were all better for different reasons.  That 5th person is more difficult, but I can see at least reasonable arguments for Oscar, Magic, or Bird.  That said, I think most people have Lebron in the top 3 all time and more and more think he is the best player ever so it is getting harder to make the argument.

How is getting kg and ray due to trades made and planned by your gm the same as talking among yourselves and planning to go to a same team?! Thanks for the laugh as always.

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2020, 12:00:58 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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Kareem
Bird
Pippen
Jordan
Magic

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2020, 12:18:50 PM »

Offline Somebody

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I lean towards putting together a team around Jordan and Wilt. So Curry and Bird are in for spacing mainly . I need defense and a guy that can help in different schemes as well so KG is in.

PG-Curry
SG-MJ
SF-Bird
PF-KG
C-Wilt
That's a really good lineup there, and finally some Curry and KG love lol.
Thanks. I didn't want to choose best player at the position but actually best team make up.
Oh yeah I shared your sentiment when I was building my own lineups earlier in this thread. I do think that the guys you picked aren't that far off from being the GOAT at their position though.
2020 Celticsstrong Historical Draft - Toronto Raptors:
PG: Kyle Lowry, Kemba Walker, Patrick Beverley
SG: Vince Carter, Donovan Mitchell, Malcolm Brogdon
SF: Khris Middleton, Luol Deng, Danilo Gallinari
PF: Kevin Garnett, Antawn Jamison
C: David Robinson, Vlade Divac, Shawn Bradley

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2020, 12:24:35 PM »

Offline Somebody

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Kareem
Bird
Pippen
Jordan
Magic
I like your thinking by putting Bird at PF, he defended big forwards for most of (if not the entirety of) his career.
2020 Celticsstrong Historical Draft - Toronto Raptors:
PG: Kyle Lowry, Kemba Walker, Patrick Beverley
SG: Vince Carter, Donovan Mitchell, Malcolm Brogdon
SF: Khris Middleton, Luol Deng, Danilo Gallinari
PF: Kevin Garnett, Antawn Jamison
C: David Robinson, Vlade Divac, Shawn Bradley

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2020, 02:16:55 PM »

Offline Moranis

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And here's Paul Pierce's top 5 (not starting 5):



People hate on PP for not including LeBron. Personally speaking, I got Bron in the same tier as MJ, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Oscar and Duncan. I'm fine with opting for MJ/Kareem/Russell/Magic over Bron. My only objection to his list would be Kobe.
Pierce looks like a fool listing Kobe & Magic ahead of Bron. Makes him come off as having been beaten by LeBron in more ways than one, lol.

Hes such a bad analyst its not even funny.
his reasoning was pretty bad, basically Lebron created a team in Miami and then again in Cleveland.  Just sounds like a huge hypocrite since you know Pierce's title team was manufactured the prior off season as well (I suspect he wouldn't have the same criticisms of Garnett as he did with Lebron).  The other analysts on the show didn't even really bother with his nonsense as they all just took it as nonsense.  Heck Magic would have gone back to school if the Lakers didn't win the coin toss for the 1st pick.  He has said this several times over the years.  In other words, he wanted to play with Kareem.  Kareem won his title in Milwaukee in Oscar's 1st season (i.e. he joined the team and wasn't on it) and didn't win any others without Magic.  Kobe demanded to go to LA after he was drafted by Charlotte.  He joined a team with Shaq.  His 2nd two, the Lakers were a mid-level team until they acquired Pau at the trade deadline.  They then went on a 3 season tear.  The analysis is just nonsense and that is the problem with it. 

The thing is, I think you could at least argue with a straight face that Lebron is outside the top 5, but Pierce just had this nonsensical argument.  And just to be clear, I don't think it would really be that difficult to argue that MJ, Bill, Wilt, and Kareem were all better for different reasons.  That 5th person is more difficult, but I can see at least reasonable arguments for Oscar, Magic, or Bird.  That said, I think most people have Lebron in the top 3 all time and more and more think he is the best player ever so it is getting harder to make the argument.

How is getting kg and ray due to trades made and planned by your gm the same as talking among yourselves and planning to go to a same team?! Thanks for the laugh as always.
The Celtics were a manufactured team.  No one on that team could win by themselves it took trades for them to do it.  And unlike the 3 C's stars, Lebron had actually taken a craptastic team to the Finals.  Pierce is just a giant a hypocrite with his reasoning. I mean his point was Lebron had to manufacture teams, yet several of the players on his list did that exact same thing.  I mean Kareem asked out of Milwaukee, Magic only stayed in the draft when the Lakers won the coin toss, Kobe refused to play in Charlotte (and basically forced his way to go play with Shaq in LA), etc.  I just find his hypocrisy to be a real problem and he just comes off as petty as a result.
Historical Draft - Portland Trailblazers
PG - Magic Johnson, Tony Parker
SG - Clyde Drexler, Dennis Johnson, Alvin Robertson
SF - James Worthy, Alex English
PF - Charles Barkley, Ben Wallace
C - Moses Malone, George Mikan, Brad Daugherty

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2020, 02:27:10 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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No Curry at the 1
Steph is hands down the better shooter (imo, the best ever). Magic and Oscar were better at pretty much everything else.
Hm I disagree, I think Steph is infinitely better off-ball and is the best scorer out of the three even though Oscar isn't that far off. Also think Steph is around Oscar's level as a playmaker if not better? Oscar had huge assist numbers but he was more of a facilitator than a creator, the bulk of his offensive impact came from his amazing isolation scoring.
Agreed on the off-ball part. After all, he's by far the better shooter. Should have mentioned his ball handling skills as well. Steph is an amazing ball handler. Imo, Magic and Oscar were better at everything else. Steph can score in bunches from distance, but Magic/Oscar were more versatile scorers (especially Oscar). At the end of the day, size matters. Magic was the better slasher, the better post up player, the better cutter, you name it. Again, Steph is hands down the better shooter. Thing is, his below average height/length is a disadvantage on both ends of the floor, not just on defense.

Don't get me wrong, Steph revolutionized the game. He's an all-time great. I just believe Magic and Oscar were better. But then again, I'm super high on Magic. Imo, he's the GOAT.


no West at the 2? Mind if I know your reasoning?
At 6'2''/6'3'', I consider West more of a PG. At the very least, I bet he would have been exclusively a PG in today's game. From what I've read, I'd rather build a team around West rather than around Kobe. Having said that, I've only seen West play in short youtube videos. I don't know enough about his game.
West was actually 6'4.5 without shoes with a 6'9 wingspan lol.

He was also a SG in the 60s and I think it would stay the same even if he played in this era. Also agree with your opinion that peak West>peak Kobe. I haven't watched a ton of his games, but his ability to score and create even in that era always stood out to me from the little I've seen, his jumper was a deadly counter to his driving ability and he balanced it with excellent passing.
West has all the incentive in the world to oversell himself. Players (people in general) do it all the time.

Basketball reference lists him at 6'2''.
DraftExpress lists him at 6'2''.
Wikipedia lists him at 6'3''.


What disrespect? People routinely slot him in their top 10 lists
This is my point right there. The way I see it, Duncan is our generation's Bill Russell. If you say Russ is a top 10 player, you are underselling him. He is a GOAT candidate. Imo, the same goes for Duncan.
No offence, but I don't see it. Russell's 13 years were basically his prime in an era where careers were considerably shorter and he had a stronger peak/prime than Duncan that more than makes up for Duncan's edge in longevity. I see Duncan in the next tier of greats alongside bigs like Shaq/Hakeem/Garnett/Wilt, which is still amazing, just not a GOAT candidate.
No offense taken. My big men tiers are a bit different:

Tier 1
GOAT candidates: Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan

Tier 2
borderline top 10 players: Dream, Shaq

Tier 3
KG, Dirk, David Robinson, Moses, Karl Malone, Chuck, Giannis, possibly a few more guys as well

I could see Giannis moving up to tier 2 in the future. AD is a strong candidate to make tier 3 in the near future.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 02:34:24 PM by Jvalin »

Re: MJs top starting five
« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2020, 08:05:13 PM »

Offline gouki88

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And here's Paul Pierce's top 5 (not starting 5):



People hate on PP for not including LeBron. Personally speaking, I got Bron in the same tier as MJ, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Oscar and Duncan. I'm fine with opting for MJ/Kareem/Russell/Magic over Bron. My only objection to his list would be Kobe.
Pierce looks like a fool listing Kobe & Magic ahead of Bron. Makes him come off as having been beaten by LeBron in more ways than one, lol.

Hes such a bad analyst its not even funny.
his reasoning was pretty bad, basically Lebron created a team in Miami and then again in Cleveland.  Just sounds like a huge hypocrite since you know Pierce's title team was manufactured the prior off season as well (I suspect he wouldn't have the same criticisms of Garnett as he did with Lebron).  The other analysts on the show didn't even really bother with his nonsense as they all just took it as nonsense.  Heck Magic would have gone back to school if the Lakers didn't win the coin toss for the 1st pick.  He has said this several times over the years.  In other words, he wanted to play with Kareem.  Kareem won his title in Milwaukee in Oscar's 1st season (i.e. he joined the team and wasn't on it) and didn't win any others without Magic.  Kobe demanded to go to LA after he was drafted by Charlotte.  He joined a team with Shaq.  His 2nd two, the Lakers were a mid-level team until they acquired Pau at the trade deadline.  They then went on a 3 season tear.  The analysis is just nonsense and that is the problem with it. 

The thing is, I think you could at least argue with a straight face that Lebron is outside the top 5, but Pierce just had this nonsensical argument.  And just to be clear, I don't think it would really be that difficult to argue that MJ, Bill, Wilt, and Kareem were all better for different reasons.  That 5th person is more difficult, but I can see at least reasonable arguments for Oscar, Magic, or Bird.  That said, I think most people have Lebron in the top 3 all time and more and more think he is the best player ever so it is getting harder to make the argument.

How is getting kg and ray due to trades made and planned by your gm the same as talking among yourselves and planning to go to a same team?! Thanks for the laugh as always.
The Celtics were a manufactured team.  No one on that team could win by themselves it took trades for them to do it.  And unlike the 3 C's stars, Lebron had actually taken a craptastic team to the Finals.  Pierce is just a giant a hypocrite with his reasoning. I mean his point was Lebron had to manufacture teams, yet several of the players on his list did that exact same thing.  I mean Kareem asked out of Milwaukee, Magic only stayed in the draft when the Lakers won the coin toss, Kobe refused to play in Charlotte (and basically forced his way to go play with Shaq in LA), etc.  I just find his hypocrisy to be a real problem and he just comes off as petty as a result.
Those examples you listed are entirely different to the formation of Miamis Big 3, and you know it.
LA Clippers:
PG: Stephen Curry / Deron Williams / Penny Hardaway
SG: Michael Redd / Doug Christie / Leandro Barbosa
SF: Grant Hill / Hedo Turkoglu
PF: Elton Brand / Lamar Odom / Josh Smith
C: Joakim Noah / Andrew Bynum / David Lee