Poll: Where does Kobe rank among the NBA's greatest players?

[Who]

Moses is a tough one to rank. He took a few years to get going (first 3-4 years), had a short prime, fell off young and then hung around as a productive player but no longer an elite one for several years (Washington, Atlanta, Milwaukee) after that.

Depends how much weight you put on prime vs longevity.

[Somebody]

Moses is a tough one to rank. He took a few years to get going (first 3-4 years), had a short prime, fell off young and then hung around as a productive player but no longer an elite one for several years (Washington, Atlanta, Milwaukee) after that.

Depends how much weight you put on prime vs longevity.

One of them was '79 but the MVP voters were not wrong!

Anyways Who with the great take as usual, TP.

[nickagneta]

Also am I the only one here who thinks that KG is a top 10 player of all time?

Yes I think you are.  Look at any of the lists posted above and tell me who you would knock out of the top-10 to make room for KG.

I actually posted my top 15 list in this thread earlier on lol.

12-15 range to me. Don't see him cracking the prestigious top 11, but I also don't see him dropping below the likes of West and Doctor J due to his longevity.

This is probably my top 15 list (in order, but I'm open to arguments ranking players in the same range differently):
Tier 1
LeBron James
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Bill Russell

Tier 2
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Wilt Chamberlain

Tier 3
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson

Tier 4
Oscar Robertson
David Robinson
Kobe Bryant
Karl Malone

Btw awards mean absolutely nothing to me so please don't pull out stuff like Moses' 3 MVPs to pump up a player if you're replying to my list lol (no offence, I just think that awards are absolute crap at evaluating a player's "goodness").

your disdain for 80's basketball is a bit much.  Garnett is not better than Bird and Magic.  Not even close.  And I already knew you hate Moses Malone for some strange reason.  He was the best player in the world for a 5 year period, playing in a time with 3 other top 10 players all time.

Disdain for 80s basketball? Is that why Jordan and Kareem are in my top 4? FWIW Bird and Magic would've joined the top 4 if they didn't have injury/HIV problems and played until the mid 90s at a high level. I've been pretty clear with how their longevity hamstrung them in my list, not because they didn't peak high enough.

And maybe you love Moses Malone for some strange reason, saying that he was the best player in the world in a 5 year period doesn't sound convincing at all when Kareem and Bird played during that stretch.

Jordan made his business in the 90's and Kareem in the 70's.  Those are the decades of their true prime years. 

Jordan played 930 games in Chicago (added 142 in Washington).  Bird played in 897 games (and was 35 when he retired) and Magic played in 906 (874 without the last year in 96).  Unless you are really relying on Jordan's 2 Washington seasons it seems strange to view the longevity that much differently.  Also, Russell only had 963.  It just seems like a strange place to draw the line. 

You can disagree all you want, but Moses Malone was in fact the best player in the world over a 5 year period.  I know you hate awards, but the writers were not wrong in giving Moses the 3 MVP's during that stretch.  He was that good and that dominant over that stretch.  Every bit as good as Kareem, Bird, and Magic during that stretch (a couple of seasons pre-dated Larry and Magic).

Agree completely on Moses. During that '79-'85 run, Moses was dominant and he was clearly the best big during that time and either the best or 2nd best player in the world during those years and deserving of those MVP awards. He carried that Houston team to the Finals and was THE difference between Philly and everyone else in '83 because no one could stop him down low, much like no one could for the 3-4 years before that.

Are you sure about '79 and '80? Kareem was still in the tail end of his prime and was a great two way anchor, the team results also like him in those final prime years as the lead dog before Magic hit his stride (strong team numbers on offence and defence, excellent point differential, deep playoff runs with one championship). He was also the best player in the '80 finals. I understand Moses being around the same level in '81 and '82 and then separating himself in '83 due to Kareem's age, but I do find it quite baffling that he was considered to be better than Kareem in '79 and '80.

Positive.

Moses was young in 79 and Kareem was just starting his post 30 decline from true greatness.

Houston had just had a terrible year and wasn't doing great in 79 but then Moses went on an absolute year. I remember reading the Boston Globe(which had the best sports section of any newspaper in the country) and when you got to the national NBA news it was like you were constantly reading about yet another 30/20 night for Moses. He had an awful lot of those nights that year, especially later in the year, like January, February and March. Moses was all the rage then and absolutely DOMINANT!

[nickagneta]

Moses is a tough one to rank. He took a few years to get going (first 3-4 years), had a short prime, fell off young and then hung around as a productive player but no longer an elite one for several years (Washington, Atlanta, Milwaukee) after that.

Depends how much weight you put on prime vs longevity.

One of them was '79 but the MVP voters were not wrong!

Anyways Who with the great take as usual, TP.

His first few years he was 19-21 and playing in the ABA. 79 was his 2nd NBA year and 4th year as a pro at 23. Gotta remember, most guys, like virtually everyone else, weren't playing pro ball at 19-21 back then and not playing against mostly grown men. They were in college playing 18-21 year olds.

[Moranis]

Moses is a tough one to rank. He took a few years to get going (first 3-4 years), had a short prime, fell off young and then hung around as a productive player but no longer an elite one for several years (Washington, Atlanta, Milwaukee) after that.

Depends how much weight you put on prime vs longevity.

Moses had 11 consecutive seasons with at least 20 ppg and 11 rpg.  The season before that he was basically 19.5/15 and the season after those 11 he was basically 19/10.  How long a prime do you think players generally have?  He led the league in rebounding 6 seasons (5 in a row).  He had 11 seasons where he received MVP votes.  Jordan for example, only played 13 seasons in Chicago, one of which he played 18 games (year 2) and another he played in 17 games (come back after the first retirement). 

As far as counting stats, Malone still has the 5th most rebounds in NBA history (3rd if you count his ABA seasons) and is by far the greatest offensive rebounder since they started keeping track of those in 73-74 (he has 2500 more than Gilmore in combined ABA/NBA and 2200 more than Parish in just NBA).  He is 9th in points scored, 25th in blocked shots (since they started tracking those), and even cracks the top 100 in steals at 95th (again since they started tracking them). 

When you have basically an 11 to 13 year prime amidst a 21 year career, I'm not sure there really is much left to do. 

[Who]

Moses is a tough one to rank. He took a few years to get going (first 3-4 years), had a short prime, fell off young and then hung around as a productive player but no longer an elite one for several years (Washington, Atlanta, Milwaukee) after that.

Depends how much weight you put on prime vs longevity.

Moses had 11 consecutive seasons with at least 20 ppg and 11 rpg.  The season before that he was basically 19.5/15 and the season after those 11 he was basically 19/10.  How long a prime do you think players generally have?  He led the league in rebounding 6 seasons (5 in a row).  He had 11 seasons where he received MVP votes.  Jordan for example, only played 13 seasons in Chicago, one of which he played 18 games (year 2) and another he played in 17 games (come back after the first retirement). 

As far as counting stats, Malone still has the 5th most rebounds in NBA history (3rd if you count his ABA seasons) and is by far the greatest offensive rebounder since they started keeping track of those in 73-74 (he has 2500 more than Gilmore in combined ABA/NBA and 2200 more than Parish in just NBA).  He is 9th in points scored, 25th in blocked shots (since they started tracking those), and even cracks the top 100 in steals at 95th (again since they started tracking them). 

When you have basically an 11 to 13 year prime amidst a 21 year career, I'm not sure there really is much left to do.

I thought his prime was over by the mid-80s. He put up numbers throughout the mid-to-late 80s but he didn't have much of an effect on wins and losses anymore. They were not empty stats but they were light ( in terms of impact).

By the time he left Philly, his time as an MVP caliber player was over. He only had a short time as an MVP talent - 1980-85. That was his prime.

[Somebody]

Moses is a tough one to rank. He took a few years to get going (first 3-4 years), had a short prime, fell off young and then hung around as a productive player but no longer an elite one for several years (Washington, Atlanta, Milwaukee) after that.

Depends how much weight you put on prime vs longevity.

One of them was '79 but the MVP voters were not wrong!

Anyways Who with the great take as usual, TP.

His first few years he was 19-21 and playing in the ABA. 79 was his 2nd NBA year and 4th year as a pro at 23. Gotta remember, most guys, like virtually everyone else, weren't playing pro ball at 19-21 back then and not playing against mostly grown men. They were in college playing 18-21 year olds.

Yeah I know, that was his 4th year as a pro, which fits Who's description.

[nickagneta]

Moses is a tough one to rank. He took a few years to get going (first 3-4 years), had a short prime, fell off young and then hung around as a productive player but no longer an elite one for several years (Washington, Atlanta, Milwaukee) after that.

Depends how much weight you put on prime vs longevity.

One of them was '79 but the MVP voters were not wrong!

Anyways Who with the great take as usual, TP.

His first few years he was 19-21 and playing in the ABA. 79 was his 2nd NBA year and 4th year as a pro at 23. Gotta remember, most guys, like virtually everyone else, weren't playing pro ball at 19-21 back then and not playing against mostly grown men. They were in college playing 18-21 year olds.

Yeah I know, that was his 4th year as a pro, which fits Who's description.

Who said 3-4. He is wrong. It's 3 years. Moses was an MVP beast that year.

[Moranis]

Moses is a tough one to rank. He took a few years to get going (first 3-4 years), had a short prime, fell off young and then hung around as a productive player but no longer an elite one for several years (Washington, Atlanta, Milwaukee) after that.

Depends how much weight you put on prime vs longevity.

One of them was '79 but the MVP voters were not wrong!

Anyways Who with the great take as usual, TP.

His first few years he was 19-21 and playing in the ABA. 79 was his 2nd NBA year and 4th year as a pro at 23. Gotta remember, most guys weren't playing pro ball at 19-21 back then and not playing against mostly grown men. They were in college playing 18-21 year olds.

Yeah Moses had 14.1 WS, just behind Kareem's 14.4.  They were very close that season, but Malone's edge in points and rebounds separated them in the MVP voting.  Also, they were on teams with identical records at 47-35 so there was no differentiation there either, though the Rockets were 2-1 and Malone individually performed better in the head to head (the rebounding edge was pretty glaring and Malone also had a fairly decent edge in shooting percentage).  Obviously Kareem was a better defender and passer, but in the totality of the circumstances, Malone was the correct choice for MVP.  Malone was an absolute monster starting that season through the early 80's and Kareem was on the wrong side of 30 and had clearly started his very gradual decline.

[nickagneta]

Moses is a tough one to rank. He took a few years to get going (first 3-4 years), had a short prime, fell off young and then hung around as a productive player but no longer an elite one for several years (Washington, Atlanta, Milwaukee) after that.

Depends how much weight you put on prime vs longevity.

One of them was '79 but the MVP voters were not wrong!

Anyways Who with the great take as usual, TP.

His first few years he was 19-21 and playing in the ABA. 79 was his 2nd NBA year and 4th year as a pro at 23. Gotta remember, most guys weren't playing pro ball at 19-21 back then and not playing against mostly grown men. They were in college playing 18-21 year olds.

Yeah Moses had 14.1 WS, just behind Kareem's 14.4.  They were very close that season, but Malone's edge in points and rebounds separated them in the MVP voting.  Also, they were on teams with identical records at 47-35 so there was no differentiation there either, though the Rockets were 2-1 and Malone individually performed better in the head to head (the rebounding edge was pretty glaring and Malone also had a fairly decent edge in shooting percentage).  Obviously Kareem was a better defender and passer, but in the totality of the circumstances, Malone was the correct choice for MVP.  Malone was an absolute monster starting that season through the early 80's and Kareem was on the wrong side of 30 and had clearly started his very gradual decline.

And Houston was a feel good story because they had only won like 27 or 28 games in 1978. Moses pretty much put that team on his shoulders and carried them to an extra 20 wins. That helped to propel him to that MVP as well

[Somebody]

Also am I the only one here who thinks that KG is a top 10 player of all time?

Yes I think you are.  Look at any of the lists posted above and tell me who you would knock out of the top-10 to make room for KG.

I actually posted my top 15 list in this thread earlier on lol.

12-15 range to me. Don't see him cracking the prestigious top 11, but I also don't see him dropping below the likes of West and Doctor J due to his longevity.

This is probably my top 15 list (in order, but I'm open to arguments ranking players in the same range differently):
Tier 1
LeBron James
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Bill Russell

Tier 2
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Wilt Chamberlain

Tier 3
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson

Tier 4
Oscar Robertson
David Robinson
Kobe Bryant
Karl Malone

Btw awards mean absolutely nothing to me so please don't pull out stuff like Moses' 3 MVPs to pump up a player if you're replying to my list lol (no offence, I just think that awards are absolute crap at evaluating a player's "goodness").

your disdain for 80's basketball is a bit much.  Garnett is not better than Bird and Magic.  Not even close.  And I already knew you hate Moses Malone for some strange reason.  He was the best player in the world for a 5 year period, playing in a time with 3 other top 10 players all time.

Disdain for 80s basketball? Is that why Jordan and Kareem are in my top 4? FWIW Bird and Magic would've joined the top 4 if they didn't have injury/HIV problems and played until the mid 90s at a high level. I've been pretty clear with how their longevity hamstrung them in my list, not because they didn't peak high enough.

And maybe you love Moses Malone for some strange reason, saying that he was the best player in the world in a 5 year period doesn't sound convincing at all when Kareem and Bird played during that stretch.

Jordan made his business in the 90's and Kareem in the 70's.  Those are the decades of their true prime years. 

Jordan played 930 games in Chicago (added 142 in Washington).  Bird played in 897 games (and was 35 when he retired) and Magic played in 906 (874 without the last year in 96).  Unless you are really relying on Jordan's 2 Washington seasons it seems strange to view the longevity that much differently.  Also, Russell only had 963.  It just seems like a strange place to draw the line. 

You can disagree all you want, but Moses Malone was in fact the best player in the world over a 5 year period.  I know you hate awards, but the writers were not wrong in giving Moses the 3 MVP's during that stretch.  He was that good and that dominant over that stretch.  Every bit as good as Kareem, Bird, and Magic during that stretch (a couple of seasons pre-dated Larry and Magic).

Agree completely on Moses. During that '79-'85 run, Moses was dominant and he was clearly the best big during that time and either the best or 2nd best player in the world during those years and deserving of those MVP awards. He carried that Houston team to the Finals and was THE difference between Philly and everyone else in '83 because no one could stop him down low, much like no one could for the 3-4 years before that.

Are you sure about '79 and '80? Kareem was still in the tail end of his prime and was a great two way anchor, the team results also like him in those final prime years as the lead dog before Magic hit his stride (strong team numbers on offence and defence, excellent point differential, deep playoff runs with one championship). He was also the best player in the '80 finals. I understand Moses being around the same level in '81 and '82 and then separating himself in '83 due to Kareem's age, but I do find it quite baffling that he was considered to be better than Kareem in '79 and '80.

Positive.

Moses was young in 79 and Kareem was just starting his post 30 decline from true greatness.

Houston had just had a terrible year and wasn't doing great in 79 but then Moses went on an absolute year. I remember reading the Boston Globe(which had the best sports section of any newspaper in the country) and when you got to the national NBA news it was like you were constantly reading about yet another 30/20 night for Moses. He had an awful lot of those nights that year, especially later in the year, like January, February and March. Moses was all the rage then and absolutely DOMINANT!

Kareem was just starting to decline, but he didn't drop off a cliff from his peak year in '77 from what I can see in both footage (albeit limited) and statistics, it was still a very strong MVP season.

And yes I read about Moses' exploits in the '79 season, it was a great offensive season for a big man (he jived with good offensive teammates in Tomjanovic, Barry and Murphy due to his offensive rebounding and finishing) that led to the best offence in '79. But his defence was an issue - that Rockets team played cringeworthy defence (22nd in DRTG) and although Moses wasn't really at fault for the outcome (his teammates were mostly below average defenders), he didn't do much to help either. Traditional defensive behemoths usually help buoy a defence a couple of tiers even if the team defence isn't all that great, and Kareem did that by anchoring the 10th best defence in the league with a supporting cast that wasn't awe-inspiring defensively. Kareem also led the Lakers to the 5th best offence and 4th best SRS (while the Rockets sputtered to an average 12th best SRS), a testament to his massive two way impact even in '79.

Anyways it's interesting hearing about how revered Moses was in '79 from you, but eh I still find the "Moses was better than Kareem in '79" claims hard to believe. It wasn't like Moses won a ton either if you want a more traditional argument, he got bounced in the first round while Kareem lost to the eventual NBA champions in the second round while tearing up the Seattle frontcourt.

[Moranis]

Also am I the only one here who thinks that KG is a top 10 player of all time?

Yes I think you are.  Look at any of the lists posted above and tell me who you would knock out of the top-10 to make room for KG.

I actually posted my top 15 list in this thread earlier on lol.

12-15 range to me. Don't see him cracking the prestigious top 11, but I also don't see him dropping below the likes of West and Doctor J due to his longevity.

This is probably my top 15 list (in order, but I'm open to arguments ranking players in the same range differently):
Tier 1
LeBron James
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Bill Russell

Tier 2
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Wilt Chamberlain

Tier 3
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson

Tier 4
Oscar Robertson
David Robinson
Kobe Bryant
Karl Malone

Btw awards mean absolutely nothing to me so please don't pull out stuff like Moses' 3 MVPs to pump up a player if you're replying to my list lol (no offence, I just think that awards are absolute crap at evaluating a player's "goodness").

your disdain for 80's basketball is a bit much.  Garnett is not better than Bird and Magic.  Not even close.  And I already knew you hate Moses Malone for some strange reason.  He was the best player in the world for a 5 year period, playing in a time with 3 other top 10 players all time.

Disdain for 80s basketball? Is that why Jordan and Kareem are in my top 4? FWIW Bird and Magic would've joined the top 4 if they didn't have injury/HIV problems and played until the mid 90s at a high level. I've been pretty clear with how their longevity hamstrung them in my list, not because they didn't peak high enough.

And maybe you love Moses Malone for some strange reason, saying that he was the best player in the world in a 5 year period doesn't sound convincing at all when Kareem and Bird played during that stretch.

Jordan made his business in the 90's and Kareem in the 70's.  Those are the decades of their true prime years. 

Jordan played 930 games in Chicago (added 142 in Washington).  Bird played in 897 games (and was 35 when he retired) and Magic played in 906 (874 without the last year in 96).  Unless you are really relying on Jordan's 2 Washington seasons it seems strange to view the longevity that much differently.  Also, Russell only had 963.  It just seems like a strange place to draw the line. 

You can disagree all you want, but Moses Malone was in fact the best player in the world over a 5 year period.  I know you hate awards, but the writers were not wrong in giving Moses the 3 MVP's during that stretch.  He was that good and that dominant over that stretch.  Every bit as good as Kareem, Bird, and Magic during that stretch (a couple of seasons pre-dated Larry and Magic).

Agree completely on Moses. During that '79-'85 run, Moses was dominant and he was clearly the best big during that time and either the best or 2nd best player in the world during those years and deserving of those MVP awards. He carried that Houston team to the Finals and was THE difference between Philly and everyone else in '83 because no one could stop him down low, much like no one could for the 3-4 years before that.

Are you sure about '79 and '80? Kareem was still in the tail end of his prime and was a great two way anchor, the team results also like him in those final prime years as the lead dog before Magic hit his stride (strong team numbers on offence and defence, excellent point differential, deep playoff runs with one championship). He was also the best player in the '80 finals. I understand Moses being around the same level in '81 and '82 and then separating himself in '83 due to Kareem's age, but I do find it quite baffling that he was considered to be better than Kareem in '79 and '80.

Positive.

Moses was young in 79 and Kareem was just starting his post 30 decline from true greatness.

Houston had just had a terrible year and wasn't doing great in 79 but then Moses went on an absolute year. I remember reading the Boston Globe(which had the best sports section of any newspaper in the country) and when you got to the national NBA news it was like you were constantly reading about yet another 30/20 night for Moses. He had an awful lot of those nights that year, especially later in the year, like January, February and March. Moses was all the rage then and absolutely DOMINANT!

Kareem was just starting to decline, but he didn't drop off a cliff from his peak year in '77 from what I can see in both footage (albeit limited) and statistics, it was still a very strong MVP season.

And yes I read about Moses' exploits in the '79 season, it was a great offensive season for a big man (he jived with good offensive teammates in Tomjanovic, Barry and Murphy due to his offensive rebounding and finishing) that led to the best offence in '79. But his defence was an issue - that Rockets team played cringeworthy defence (22nd in DRTG) and although Moses wasn't really at fault for the outcome (his teammates were mostly below average defenders), he didn't do much to help either. Traditional defensive behemoths usually help buoy a defence a couple of tiers even if the team defence isn't all that great, and Kareem did that by anchoring the 10th best defence in the league with a supporting cast that wasn't awe-inspiring defensively. Kareem also led the Lakers to the 5th best offence and 4th best SRS (while the Rockets sputtered to an average 12th best SRS), a testament to his massive two way impact even in '79.

Anyways it's interesting hearing about how revered Moses was in '79 from you, but eh I still find the "Moses was better than Kareem in '79" claims hard to believe. It wasn't like Moses won a ton either if you want a more traditional argument, he got bounced in the first round while Kareem lost to the eventual NBA champions in the second round while tearing up the Seattle frontcourt.

Moses was 2nd Team All Defense that season, and it was earned.  He wasn't a shlub on that end of the floor.  And it is hard to get much better than 24.5 p, 20.5 r, and 4 b which is what Moses did against Atlanta.  They didn't lose to the Hawks because Moses underperformed, they lost because everyone else was crap.

At the end of the day when you lead the league in rebounding by nearly 5 a game (17.6, Kareem and Rich Kelley were 2nd at 12., play significantly more minutes than anyone else, finish 4th in ppg, etc., and then win the head to head match-up against your biggest competitor for the award, it isn't hard to figure out why Moses was correctly awarded the MVP. 

[GreenFaith1819]

Since we're talking All-Time greats..

How would Russelll's stats look in Today's NBA?

My guess in 15-18 points, 15 rebounds, 2 steals, 4-5 blocks and 4-5 assists.

My bet is he'd also develop a three point shot - especially if he knew it would help his team.

Also - my man Chief isn't getting any love around here.

[fairweatherfan]

Since we're talking All-Time greats..

How would Russelll's stats look in Today's NBA?

My guess in 15-18 points, 15 rebounds, 2 steals, 4-5 blocks and 4-5 assists.

My bet is he'd also develop a three point shot - especially if he knew it would help his team.

His stats would probably look like a rich man's Tim Duncan except in scoring where they'd be similar.

Always hard to say who could or couldn't develop a 3 pt shot but recent evidence suggests an awful lot of big men can. Russell never showed much range or touch as a scorer in his day but with millions of $ of training and tech around him who knows? The will would surely be there.

[Big333223]

I think there are 11 guys clearly ahead of Kobe: Jordan, Bird, Magic, Russell, Kareem, Wilt, Lebron, Oscar, Hakeem, Duncan, and Shaq. I also think he's definitely behind Moses and Jerry West but I those aren't as ironclad.

After that, there are a handful of greats he's in conversation with like Baylor, Havlicek, Julius, Pettit, Dirk, Barkley, Pippen, Barry, Isiah, Willis Reed, David Robinson. So, for me, he lands somewhere between 13-24, which is a big range. He's probably around 20.

When you collect the accolades; the MVP, the FMVP's, the scoring titles, All-NBA teams, etc. and add into that the drive and work ethic he always had, you have the makings of, maybe, a top ten player... but... I think the '04 finals has to be taken into account. Kobe went into that finals, whether consciously or unconsciously, saying he would rather lose as the #1 than win as the #2. And he not only played like garbage but hurt the rest of his team with selfish play and lost a championship to an inferior team.

There is no one in the top ten who ever would've done that, I don't think, and that matters big to me. It doesn't define his entire career, but it has to mitigate some of the greatness. And so, yeah, he's somewhere around the 20th best player for me.