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Author Topic: Zach Lowe re: All-Stars  (Read 2827 times)

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Re: Zach Lowe re: All-Stars
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2020, 08:05:44 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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2020 East All-Star starters:
Atlanta’s Trae Young
Boston’s Kemba Walker
Toronto's Pascal Siakam
Milwaukee’s Giannis Antetokounmpo (captain)
Philadlephia’s Joel Embiid
Can’t really argue with that in my opinion

Jimmy Butler should have a huge problem with it.

He kind of got screwed  by being classified as a front court player, though.

Re: Zach Lowe re: All-Stars
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2020, 08:15:39 PM »

Online tazzmaniac

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Per Shams.

2020 East All-Star starters:
Atlanta’s Trae Young
Boston’s Kemba Walker
Toronto's Pascal Siakam
Milwaukee’s Giannis Antetokounmpo (captain)
Philadlephia’s Joel Embiid
Can’t really argue with that in my opinion

Jimmy Butler should have a huge problem with it.

He kind of got screwed  by being classified as a front court player, though.
He's been the SF for the Heat so don't see how he got screwed. 

Re: Zach Lowe re: All-Stars
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2020, 08:18:33 PM »

Online tazzmaniac

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Lebron will take AD first.  It will be interesting to see who Giannis takes first. 

Re: Zach Lowe re: All-Stars
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2020, 08:24:30 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Per Shams.

2020 East All-Star starters:
Atlanta’s Trae Young
Boston’s Kemba Walker
Toronto's Pascal Siakam
Milwaukee’s Giannis Antetokounmpo (captain)
Philadlephia’s Joel Embiid
Can’t really argue with that in my opinion

Jimmy Butler should have a huge problem with it.

He kind of got screwed  by being classified as a front court player, though.
He's been the SF for the Heat so don't see how he got screwed. 

He's Miami's defacto starting PG on offense and has played a higher percentage of his minutes at the 2 (per 82games).  Jimmy has always been more of a 2 than a 3 and this season has been no different.

Re: Zach Lowe re: All-Stars
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2020, 08:50:09 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Kemba and Trae have to be the last two starters selected to a team, right?

Re: Zach Lowe re: All-Stars
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2020, 08:55:07 PM »

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I agree that Tatum seems to have more momentum and, as fwf said, 'feels' more like an all-star; but since the coaches are the ones choosing, I wonder if Brown will get the nod due to his consistency and the fact that he has clearly improved into a complete two-way star (fwiw, I think Tatum has, as well). Otoh, Tatum's huge jersey sales (popularity) might play a part in him getting in.

Gun to my head, I would choose Brown as he seems just a little more deserving this season. Also, I am sure that Tatum has many more all-star games ahead while Brown maybe on the cusp each year depending on talent and injuries. I would love to be wrong and have Brown become a perennial All-Star starter (it wouldn't surprise me with his improvements each season), but Tatum is such a hot name that he seems destined for the All-Star game each season no matter what.

Re: Zach Lowe re: All-Stars
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2020, 09:06:44 PM »

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Lebron will take AD first.  It will be interesting to see who Giannis takes first.
Oh they’re gonna do that pickup game thing again?  Not watching. 

I used to love rooting for the East.  It was the only time I liked Isaiah Thomas.

Re: Zach Lowe re: All-Stars
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2020, 09:11:48 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I agree that Tatum seems to have more momentum and, as fwf said, 'feels' more like an all-star; but since the coaches are the ones choosing, I wonder if Brown will get the nod due to his consistency and the fact that he has clearly improved into a complete two-way star (fwiw, I think Tatum has, as well). Otoh, Tatum's huge jersey sales (popularity) might play a part in him getting in.

Gun to my head, I would choose Brown as he seems just a little more deserving this season. Also, I am sure that Tatum has many more all-star games ahead while Brown maybe on the cusp each year depending on talent and injuries. I would love to be wrong and have Brown become a perennial All-Star starter (it wouldn't surprise me with his improvements each season), but Tatum is such a hot name that he seems destined for the All-Star game each season no matter what.
In 2, maybe three years I will expect both to have 25/7/4.5 lines with TS%'s of 60+ and be near or at All-Defense level defense. I expect both to then become multiple time/regular All-Stars sometime between now and then.

But the sunglasses I wear at night are shaded green.

Re: Zach Lowe re: All-Stars
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2020, 09:33:21 PM »

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I really hope Jaylen gets the nod if it’s only one of the Jays, I think he’s been the better player this year ( I know there’s a split opinion on that) but I also want it for his confidence.
   I think Tatum maybe more of a natural talent and has a good level of confidence. I want Jaylen to see his hard work has really paid off. I think it may motivate him more instead of maybe getting discouraged.But these are my random speculations or guesses. It’s not like I’m a mind reader or I know what I’m talking about. Just a crazy overly emotional fan who accidentally punched a hole in my mother in laws ceiling watching the “ Confetti” game jumping in the air like I’m in a Toyota commercial. 
     Either way I think both of the Jays can really help each other improve as players.
  My unrealistic hope is Jaylen has a Kawhai Leonard type future in 4 yrs or so and Jaylen is the next ..I dunno. I’m not sure who  a prime Tatum player would resemble. One can dream.  :)

Re: Zach Lowe re: All-Stars
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2020, 09:36:59 PM »

Offline bdm860

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2020 East All-Star starters:
Atlanta’s Trae Young
Boston’s Kemba Walker
Toronto's Pascal Siakam
Milwaukee’s Giannis Antetokounmpo (captain)
Philadlephia’s Joel Embiid
Can’t really argue with that in my opinion

Jimmy Butler should have a huge problem with it.

He kind of got screwed  by being classified as a front court player, though.
He's been the SF for the Heat so don't see how he got screwed. 

He's Miami's defacto starting PG on offense and has played a higher percentage of his minutes at the 2 (per 82games).  Jimmy has always been more of a 2 than a 3 and this season has been no different.

Do you think 82games is accurate?  By comparison, basketball-reference.com has Butler spending 100% of his time this season at forward.

Personally I don't trust either of them.

Example, whose the C in the Brown/Hayward/Smart/Tatum/Walker lineup?  I'd say that was Smart, at least defensively.  Neither have Smart listed as having spent any time at C.

Also, I know I've seen Tatum play the point for short periods.  Neither site has him ever playing the point.  Look at these lineups from '18 and '19 and tell me who the point was:

Lineup   Minutes
J.Brown | A.Horford | G.Monroe | M.Morris | J.Tatum   4.9
A.Horford | A.Nader | S.Ojeleye | J.Tatum | D.Theis           4.6
G.Monroe | M.Morris | S.Ojeleye | J.Tatum | G.Yabusele   4.3
A.Horford | M.Morris | A.Nader | S.Ojeleye | J.Tatum   3.4
A.Horford | G.Monroe | M.Morris | A.Nader | J.Tatum   3.3
J. Brown | G. Hayward | A. Horford | S. Ojeleye | J. Tatum   3
J. Brown | G. Hayward | A. Horford | M. Morris | J. Tatum    3
A.Baynes | J.Brown | A.Horford | A.Nader | J.Tatum           2.8
A.Baynes | A.Horford | M.Morris | A.Nader | J.Tatum   2.7
G.Monroe | M.Morris | A.Nader | S.Ojeleye | J.Tatum   2.4
A.Horford | G.Monroe | A.Nader | S.Ojeleye | J.Tatum   2.1
J.Brown | A.Horford | A.Nader | J.Tatum | D.Theis           1.9
A. Baynes | J. Brown | G. Hayward | M. Morris | J. Tatum   1.9
J. Brown | G. Hayward | M. Morris | J. Tatum | D. Theis   1.4
J.Brown | G.Monroe | M.Morris | S.Ojeleye | J.Tatum   1.3
A.Baynes | J.Brown | A.Horford | M.Morris | J.Tatum   0.8
A.Baynes | A.Horford | A.Nader | S.Ojeleye | J.Tatum   0.8
A.Baynes | M.Morris | S.Ojeleye | J.Tatum | G.Yabusele   0.5
J.Brown | A.Horford | A.Nader | S.Ojeleye | J.Tatum   0.5
J.Brown | A.Horford | M.Morris | S.Ojeleye | J.Tatum   0.2


If it wasn't Tatum, it was Horford or Hayward, but none of them are ever listed as having played point ever.  Now not a lot of minutes (45.8 total), but it was more than 1% of Tatum's minutes in '18 so that should register.

All that to say I think neither 82games or basketball-reference is accurate for position info.  But to be fair, a lot of teams are playing more and more position-less basketball which makes these things very hard to track.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 11:24:39 PM by bdm860 »

After 18 months with their Bigs, the Littles were: 46% less likely to use illegal drugs, 27% less likely to use alcohol, 52% less likely to skip school, 37% less likely to skip a class

Re: Zach Lowe re: All-Stars
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2020, 10:13:20 PM »

Offline bdm860

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Lebron will take AD first.  It will be interesting to see who Giannis takes first.

Kemba and Trae have to be the last two starters selected to a team, right?

My bet LeBron goes straight politics.

LeBron - AD, teammate, needs him to re-sign
Giannis - Embiid (if healthy), need that size
LeBron - Luka. Come join Team LeBron.  Sign with Klutch.  Help me expand my empire in Europe.  Need to groom that next gen of players.
Giannis - Kawhi
LeBron - Trae Young.   Same as Luka, but without the Europe influence.
Giannis - Harden
LeBron - Siakam.  Same as Luka and Young.  Gotta groom those young guys into your empire.
Giannis - Walker (also last pick last year).


After 18 months with their Bigs, the Littles were: 46% less likely to use illegal drugs, 27% less likely to use alcohol, 52% less likely to skip school, 37% less likely to skip a class

Re: Zach Lowe re: All-Stars
« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2020, 06:12:56 AM »

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Brown has had his slumps but at his peak stretch he was better in efficiency over Siakam and Tatum enough that Brown remains total wise. In terms of that offensive efficency Tatum is more like Siakam. Siakam just has more usage. My point is if Siakam is an All-Star starter both Brown and Tatum easily deserve in as bench guys. I think it all depends on who is on the roster. Need more size take Tatum. Need more speed take Brown. Doubt they both get on but I believe both deserve it more than Middleton.

« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 10:16:52 AM by Csfan1984 »
Trade deadline mock team: Celtics,
Irving, Rozier, Wanna
Smart, Robinson, Dozier
Tatum, Morris, Semi
Griffin, Theis, Yab
Horford, Baynes, Williams

Re: Zach Lowe re: All-Stars
« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2020, 08:32:26 AM »

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The only real argument for leaving Tatum off is he is a front court player which is just deeper than the guards.  I don't really have any issue with Giannis, Butler, Embiid, Siakam, Adebayo, Sabonis, and Middleton making the team.  That is 7 front court players, you can't put an 8th on the team so if you put Tatum on, you have to take one of those players off.  Embiid actually seems like the easiest to remove given his games played, but I expect him to start and I'd have a hard time putting Boston's #2 player (even though I think he is the most valuable, he probably isn't quite as good as Walker yet) in over the #1 player on the Pacers (who are just behind Boston in record), or the #2 players on the two top teams in the conference.

I know Lowe didn't frame it that way, but that seems like a reasonable enough result when you do look at this way.  The guards are much weaker and with guys like Irving being hurt, it makes it easier for Brown to get in even though Tatum has been the better player.
Butler is treated as a guard in the voting. Beal, Lowry, Young, Kyrie, Kemba, Simmons, Butler, Brown, Brogdon. There's a lot of guards to consider.

OTOH, Freak, Embiid, Siakham, Sabonis, maybe Bam and Middleton, it's a pretty small list of guys that I'd put ahead of Tatum in the front court, and you'd have to assume they're going to take at least 7 front court players.

IMO, Tatum's a lock, and Brown has very little chance to make it.
Jimmy Butler may play SG a fair amount of the time, but he was listed as a front court player for the all star voting.  Thus, he was not in fact a guard in voting.  He was a front court player.  The list of players I had is 7 front court players, to have Tatum, you'd have to remove 1 of them and there are valid reasons that every single one of them should be ahead of Tatum.  There are far less guards worthy than front court players, which is why Brown has a better chance than Tatum of making the team.
Historical Draft - Portland Trailblazers
PG - Magic Johnson, Tony Parker
SG - Clyde Drexler, Dennis Johnson, Alvin Robertson
SF - James Worthy, Alex English
PF - Charles Barkley, Ben Wallace
C - Moses Malone, George Mikan, Brad Daugherty

Re: Zach Lowe re: All-Stars
« Reply #43 on: January 24, 2020, 08:37:07 AM »

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One or both of the Jays are going to be slighted for a garbage time player or a Giannis coattail rider  >:(.

Re: Zach Lowe re: All-Stars
« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2020, 08:41:40 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Per Shams.

2020 East All-Star starters:
Atlanta’s Trae Young
Boston’s Kemba Walker
Toronto's Pascal Siakam
Milwaukee’s Giannis Antetokounmpo (captain)
Philadlephia’s Joel Embiid
Can’t really argue with that in my opinion

Jimmy Butler should have a huge problem with it.

He kind of got screwed  by being classified as a front court player, though.
He's been the SF for the Heat so don't see how he got screwed. 

He's Miami's defacto starting PG on offense and has played a higher percentage of his minutes at the 2 (per 82games).  Jimmy has always been more of a 2 than a 3 and this season has been no different.

Do you think 82games is accurate?  By comparison, basketball-reference.com has Butler spending 100% of his time this season at forward.

Personally I don't trust either of them.

Example, whose the C in the Brown/Hayward/Smart/Tatum/Walker lineup?  I'd say that was Smart, at least defensively.  Neither have Smart listed as having spent any time at C.

Also, I know I've seen Tatum play the point for short periods.  Neither site has him ever playing the point.  Look at these lineups from '18 and '19 and tell me who the point was:

Lineup   Minutes
J.Brown | A.Horford | G.Monroe | M.Morris | J.Tatum   4.9
A.Horford | A.Nader | S.Ojeleye | J.Tatum | D.Theis           4.6
G.Monroe | M.Morris | S.Ojeleye | J.Tatum | G.Yabusele   4.3
A.Horford | M.Morris | A.Nader | S.Ojeleye | J.Tatum   3.4
A.Horford | G.Monroe | M.Morris | A.Nader | J.Tatum   3.3
J. Brown | G. Hayward | A. Horford | S. Ojeleye | J. Tatum   3
J. Brown | G. Hayward | A. Horford | M. Morris | J. Tatum    3
A.Baynes | J.Brown | A.Horford | A.Nader | J.Tatum           2.8
A.Baynes | A.Horford | M.Morris | A.Nader | J.Tatum   2.7
G.Monroe | M.Morris | A.Nader | S.Ojeleye | J.Tatum   2.4
A.Horford | G.Monroe | A.Nader | S.Ojeleye | J.Tatum   2.1
J.Brown | A.Horford | A.Nader | J.Tatum | D.Theis           1.9
A. Baynes | J. Brown | G. Hayward | M. Morris | J. Tatum   1.9
J. Brown | G. Hayward | M. Morris | J. Tatum | D. Theis   1.4
J.Brown | G.Monroe | M.Morris | S.Ojeleye | J.Tatum   1.3
A.Baynes | J.Brown | A.Horford | M.Morris | J.Tatum   0.8
A.Baynes | A.Horford | A.Nader | S.Ojeleye | J.Tatum   0.8
A.Baynes | M.Morris | S.Ojeleye | J.Tatum | G.Yabusele   0.5
J.Brown | A.Horford | A.Nader | S.Ojeleye | J.Tatum   0.5
J.Brown | A.Horford | M.Morris | S.Ojeleye | J.Tatum   0.2


If it wasn't Tatum, it was Horford or Hayward, but none of them are ever listed as having played point ever.  Now not a lot of minutes (45.8 total), but it was more than 1% of Tatum's minutes in '18 so that should register.

All that to say I think neither 82games or basketball-reference is accurate for position info.  But to be fair, a lot of teams are playing more and more position-less basketball which makes these things very hard to track.
It depends on how you classify Robinson and Butler.  Butler generally guards the better wing, sometimes that is a SG, sometimes it is a SF.  Offensively, Butler handles the ball a lot more, though Robinson is a spot up shooter.  I think you can reasonably argue that Butler is the starting SG or the starting SF.  Butler does get a lot of time with 2 of Nunn, Herro, and Dragic on the floor and in those units he is clearly the SF. 
Historical Draft - Portland Trailblazers
PG - Magic Johnson, Tony Parker
SG - Clyde Drexler, Dennis Johnson, Alvin Robertson
SF - James Worthy, Alex English
PF - Charles Barkley, Ben Wallace
C - Moses Malone, George Mikan, Brad Daugherty