Tatum: “Hayward is one of the best players in the league”

[GreenFaith1819]

I "Still" think that we're only getting the PG-13 rated version of Gordon Hayward, even with his first 10 games this season.

The "Utah" Gordon Hayward?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LinS8LS8TVE

Clearly rated "R".

The Utah Gordon Hayward chased down blocks.....gave Greek Freak facials.....clearly had more "Bounce" to the Ounce.......

Don't get me wrong - I LOVE the BOS version of Hayward. As Roy alluded to - he has more weapons here in BOS and will probably rarely have his FULL repertoire on display.

But I still think we're only seeing about 85 percent of what he was in Utah. Dude had / has "Boing".

Yeah and that's fine, having 5 players who're solidly in the top 50 is amazing. Really happy with what we've got and I think we have a shot at winning banner 18 (I've been pushing the banner 18 bandwagon for few weeks iirc lol).

Agreed. Such is BOS's way.

I remember reading up on Bill Russell's BOS teams beating the questionably more talented LAL (Wilt) teams.

Having a LOT of VERY GOOD players trumps having 1 or 2 great ones in some cases....I love BOS's Giant Slayer mentality over the years.

[Somebody]

I "Still" think that we're only getting the PG-13 rated version of Gordon Hayward, even with his first 10 games this season.

The "Utah" Gordon Hayward?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LinS8LS8TVE

Clearly rated "R".

The Utah Gordon Hayward chased down blocks.....gave Greek Freak facials.....clearly had more "Bounce" to the Ounce.......

Don't get me wrong - I LOVE the BOS version of Hayward. As Roy alluded to - he has more weapons here in BOS and will probably rarely have his FULL repertoire on display.

But I still think we're only seeing about 85 percent of what he was in Utah. Dude had / has "Boing".

Yeah and that's fine, having 5 players who're solidly in the top 50 is amazing. Really happy with what we've got and I think we have a shot at winning banner 18 (I've been pushing the banner 18 bandwagon for few weeks iirc lol).

Agreed. Such is BOS's way.

I remember reading up on Bill Russell's BOS teams beating the questionably more talented LAL (Wilt) teams.

Having a LOT of VERY GOOD players trumps having 1 or 2 great ones in some cases....I love BOS's Giant Slayer mentality over the years.

Russell was a better player than Wilt for most of his career though ('67 and '68 were exceptions, Wilt was better when he was in the midst of his two year apex while Russell was declining) - Russell's career was an onslaught of MVP calibre seasons with 4-6 ATG years thrown in between. But yeah other than Russell's advantage over any centre in the league for most of his career, Boston often played with an underwhelming supporting cast compared to teams like the Sixers and Lakers.

[Celtics17]

When Russ entered the league he played with the league MVP in Cousy and Don Nelson was that years 'Rookie of the Year'! Are you sure that Russel had the inferior supporting cast? Are you sure he was the superior player to Wilt?

Give me a break!

[Donoghus]

When Russ entered the league he played with the league MVP in Cousy and Don Nelson was that years 'Rookie of the Year'! Are you sure that Russel had the inferior supporting cast? Are you sure he was the superior player to Wilt?

Give me a break!

You mean Heinsohn, right?

[LilRip]

Gotta be some empty PR. Hayward’s not even in the top 3 of his own team!

[IDreamCeltics]

I honestly can't tell if Hayward is overrated or underrated at this point. On the one hand you have many fans all who want to trade him for a bag of balls which is silly considering he has when healthy looked very good this year, maybe our best distributor and a very efficient scorer. On the other hand he's a one time all star who has averaged 20ppg once and has played like a dozen good games in the last 3 years yet we are constantly reminded that Gordon hayward is "amazing," "One of the best players," "indispensable."

My guess is he is a good player who if the right deal was available we could absolutely trade and it wouldn't be stupid at all, but the right deal probably isnt going to be available while he's under contract so lets hope he's healthy and make a run with the guys we have.

Yep.

The only thing I would add is that he has a history of disappearing in big moments dating back to college that is never talked about.

[nickagneta]

I "Still" think that we're only getting the PG-13 rated version of Gordon Hayward, even with his first 10 games this season.

The "Utah" Gordon Hayward?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LinS8LS8TVE

Clearly rated "R".

The Utah Gordon Hayward chased down blocks.....gave Greek Freak facials.....clearly had more "Bounce" to the Ounce.......

Don't get me wrong - I LOVE the BOS version of Hayward. As Roy alluded to - he has more weapons here in BOS and will probably rarely have his FULL repertoire on display.

But I still think we're only seeing about 85 percent of what he was in Utah. Dude had / has "Boing".

Yeah and that's fine, having 5 players who're solidly in the top 50 is amazing. Really happy with what we've got and I think we have a shot at winning banner 18 (I've been pushing the banner 18 bandwagon for few weeks iirc lol).

Agreed. Such is BOS's way.

I remember reading up on Bill Russell's BOS teams beating the questionably more talented LAL (Wilt) teams.

Having a LOT of VERY GOOD players trumps having 1 or 2 great ones in some cases....I love BOS's Giant Slayer mentality over the years.

Russell was a better player than Wilt for most of his career though ('67 and '68 were exceptions, Wilt was better when he was in the midst of his two year apex while Russell was declining) - Russell's career was an onslaught of MVP calibre seasons with 4-6 ATG years thrown in between. But yeah other than Russell's advantage over any centre in the league for most of his career, Boston often played with an underwhelming supporting cast compared to teams like the Sixers and Lakers.

Russell's supporting cast over the years.

HOFer Bob Cousy
HOFer Frank Ramsey
HOFer Bill Sharman
HOFer Sam Jones
HOFer KC Jones
HOFer Tom Heinsohn
HOFer John Havlicek
HOFer Clyde Lovelette
HOFer Tom "Satch" Sanders
HOFer Don Nelson

Underwhelming? Not sure I would use that word.

[ozgod]

Oh how soon some have FORGOTTEN how potent this man's game was - IS -
He led a young Utah team (right before Gobert came into his prime AND before Spydah Mitchell) to the WCS.

Dude even had a few explosions LAST year - with Kyrie - but even THEN wasn't quite himself. But his brilliance shown through in those few games.

I doubt we'll see that kind of brilliance from him again with the weapons this team now has but make no mistake about it - Gordon Hayward, Marcus Smart AND Kemba are the GLUE of this team.

I haven't forgotten his All-Star calibre play in Utah, what he is now (more or less fringe All-Star level) is just not "one of the best players in the league" material lol (unless your criteria is top 40-50).

If my criteria was "top 40 or 50" I'd be interested in where YOU'd rank Gordon Hayward.

To be fair I'd use his first 10 games of this season.

Just from his play while in Utah he made the All-Star game. That - alone - is top 30, right? (15 players each All-Star team).

10 games is a ridiculously small sample size - any good player can look like a world beater in such a small stretch if they get hot for a few games. I don't think I can confidently defend the take that he's a top 30 player - he certainly looks good so far but it's not top 30 level unless you see him in the most positive light (eg. he'd keep up that insanely efficient offensive production on a decently heavy offensive load for the whole season).

Btw I didn't dispute the opinion that Utah Hayward was a top player, I simply don't think that Boston Hayward is a top player like Tatum said.

I think the Hayward we’ve seen this year is the same guy that played in Utah. He’s just surrounded by more gifted offensive teammates.

On a really small sample size, I just don't think that I can make the conclusion that Hayward is back to All-Star form even though he's been playing really well.

But yeah he's been surrounded by more talented players this season and has played well with them so far due to his scalable skillset - he gives you some really nice secondary playmaking and floor spacing.

One thing that the stats don’t capture is Gordon’s unselfishness. He doesn’t jack up 20 shots to get 30 ppg like Jayson does, because that’s not the role they have him playing on this team. His skill set allows him to be effective without necessarily scoring the basketball. As Jayson is more of a volume scorer and his (and Jaylens) ability to set others up, while getting better, is not really at Gordon’s level, I’m expecting Gordon’s scoring to take a back seat to the two Jays as they continue to blossom offensively. And obviously he can slot into that scorers role if either of our young guys have one of their poor shooting nights.

I’m very happy with the role Gordon’s playing right now, it’s an unselfish one. Of course the usual haters will moan about how we have a max player being paid the most scoring the least of our top 4 but I couldn’t be bothered less. There’s not that many NBA players of Gordon’s ability who are willing to step back from the limelight and let others take on bigger roles that suit those teammates better, because they want to win rather than “get theirs” every night. We’re lucky to have a player of Gordon’s ability and unselfishness. That’s the Celtic way.

[Somebody]

I "Still" think that we're only getting the PG-13 rated version of Gordon Hayward, even with his first 10 games this season.

The "Utah" Gordon Hayward?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LinS8LS8TVE

Clearly rated "R".

The Utah Gordon Hayward chased down blocks.....gave Greek Freak facials.....clearly had more "Bounce" to the Ounce.......

Don't get me wrong - I LOVE the BOS version of Hayward. As Roy alluded to - he has more weapons here in BOS and will probably rarely have his FULL repertoire on display.

But I still think we're only seeing about 85 percent of what he was in Utah. Dude had / has "Boing".

Yeah and that's fine, having 5 players who're solidly in the top 50 is amazing. Really happy with what we've got and I think we have a shot at winning banner 18 (I've been pushing the banner 18 bandwagon for few weeks iirc lol).

Agreed. Such is BOS's way.

I remember reading up on Bill Russell's BOS teams beating the questionably more talented LAL (Wilt) teams.

Having a LOT of VERY GOOD players trumps having 1 or 2 great ones in some cases....I love BOS's Giant Slayer mentality over the years.

Russell was a better player than Wilt for most of his career though ('67 and '68 were exceptions, Wilt was better when he was in the midst of his two year apex while Russell was declining) - Russell's career was an onslaught of MVP calibre seasons with 4-6 ATG years thrown in between. But yeah other than Russell's advantage over any centre in the league for most of his career, Boston often played with an underwhelming supporting cast compared to teams like the Sixers and Lakers.

Russell's supporting cast over the years.

HOFer Bob Cousy
HOFer Frank Ramsey
HOFer Bill Sharman
HOFer Sam Jones
HOFer KC Jones
HOFer Tom Heinsohn
HOFer John Havlicek
HOFer Clyde Lovelette
HOFer Tom "Satch" Sanders
HOFer Don Nelson

Underwhelming? Not sure I would use that word.

Without getting into how Russell dragged a few of those guys into the Hall (go check the player profiles of Sanders, KC and Nelson, they were no world beaters as individuals) as well as the fact that Lovelette was a 9 MPG backup centre when he played with Russell, it was normal to have multiple All-Star teammates back then. Russell played with six different All-Stars totaling 27 selections in 13 years, while West played with eight different players totaling 22 selections in 14 years and Wilt played with 10 different players totaling 24 selections in 14 years.

Russell's teams were powered by his otherworldly defence while he depended on his teammates to spearhead...an average to below average offence. His supporting casts were certainly inferior and underwhelming compared to the loaded '67 and '68 Sixers and the 60s Lakers. Here's a really informative article on how he was the main reason for Boston's success during the decade despite the famous names of his teammates (which they owe to him):
https://backpicks.com/2018/04/02/backpicks-goat-3-bill-russell/

[SHAQATTACK]

He is what I wanted two years ago.   Steady Eddie .   Simular to Kemba .....looks at what the team needs during the game. Maybe  Energy , maybe leadership , maybe helping get guys scoring ,  maybe providing a bucket when nobody elese is hitting.  Play steady defense.   He does not have to score 15-20 a game .   But the 4 assistes ,  steady defense,  6 rebounds ,  2 steals and no turnovers and hi IQ  passing ....with 10 points is a better line for the team than a Kryie dribbling exposition every game with 30 plus points and a sour depressed 14 players with no emotion .   We have Kemba , Hayward and Smart who all know HOW to play Celtics ball.   Tatum , Brown , and Romeo are in training .   

[Somebody]

Oh how soon some have FORGOTTEN how potent this man's game was - IS -
He led a young Utah team (right before Gobert came into his prime AND before Spydah Mitchell) to the WCS.

Dude even had a few explosions LAST year - with Kyrie - but even THEN wasn't quite himself. But his brilliance shown through in those few games.

I doubt we'll see that kind of brilliance from him again with the weapons this team now has but make no mistake about it - Gordon Hayward, Marcus Smart AND Kemba are the GLUE of this team.

I haven't forgotten his All-Star calibre play in Utah, what he is now (more or less fringe All-Star level) is just not "one of the best players in the league" material lol (unless your criteria is top 40-50).

If my criteria was "top 40 or 50" I'd be interested in where YOU'd rank Gordon Hayward.

To be fair I'd use his first 10 games of this season.

Just from his play while in Utah he made the All-Star game. That - alone - is top 30, right? (15 players each All-Star team).

10 games is a ridiculously small sample size - any good player can look like a world beater in such a small stretch if they get hot for a few games. I don't think I can confidently defend the take that he's a top 30 player - he certainly looks good so far but it's not top 30 level unless you see him in the most positive light (eg. he'd keep up that insanely efficient offensive production on a decently heavy offensive load for the whole season).

Btw I didn't dispute the opinion that Utah Hayward was a top player, I simply don't think that Boston Hayward is a top player like Tatum said.

I think the Hayward we’ve seen this year is the same guy that played in Utah. He’s just surrounded by more gifted offensive teammates.

On a really small sample size, I just don't think that I can make the conclusion that Hayward is back to All-Star form even though he's been playing really well.

But yeah he's been surrounded by more talented players this season and has played well with them so far due to his scalable skillset - he gives you some really nice secondary playmaking and floor spacing.

One thing that the stats don’t capture is Gordon’s unselfishness. He doesn’t jack up 20 shots to get 30 ppg like Jayson does, because that’s not the role they have him playing on this team. His skill set allows him to be effective without necessarily scoring the basketball. As Jayson is more of a volume scorer and his (and Jaylens) ability to set others up, while getting better, is not really at Gordon’s level, I’m expecting Gordon’s scoring to take a back seat to the two Jays as they continue to blossom offensively. And obviously he can slot into that scorers role if either of our young guys have one of their poor shooting nights.

I’m very happy with the role Gordon’s playing right now, it’s an unselfish one. Of course the usual haters will moan about how we have a max player being paid the most scoring the least of our top 4 but I couldn’t be bothered less. There’s not that many NBA players of Gordon’s ability who are willing to step back from the limelight and let others take on bigger roles that suit those teammates better, because they want to win rather than “get theirs” every night. We’re lucky to have a player of Gordon’s ability and unselfishness. That’s the Celtic way.

I never said anything about box stats though, I've been basing my analysis of Hayward on the eye test a lot and I love his impact. I've been praising Hayward a ton this season, I just don't believe that I can defend the take that he's an All-Star calibre player based on this minuscule sample size.

[nickagneta]

I "Still" think that we're only getting the PG-13 rated version of Gordon Hayward, even with his first 10 games this season.

The "Utah" Gordon Hayward?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LinS8LS8TVE

Clearly rated "R".

The Utah Gordon Hayward chased down blocks.....gave Greek Freak facials.....clearly had more "Bounce" to the Ounce.......

Don't get me wrong - I LOVE the BOS version of Hayward. As Roy alluded to - he has more weapons here in BOS and will probably rarely have his FULL repertoire on display.

But I still think we're only seeing about 85 percent of what he was in Utah. Dude had / has "Boing".

Yeah and that's fine, having 5 players who're solidly in the top 50 is amazing. Really happy with what we've got and I think we have a shot at winning banner 18 (I've been pushing the banner 18 bandwagon for few weeks iirc lol).

Agreed. Such is BOS's way.

I remember reading up on Bill Russell's BOS teams beating the questionably more talented LAL (Wilt) teams.

Having a LOT of VERY GOOD players trumps having 1 or 2 great ones in some cases....I love BOS's Giant Slayer mentality over the years.

Russell was a better player than Wilt for most of his career though ('67 and '68 were exceptions, Wilt was better when he was in the midst of his two year apex while Russell was declining) - Russell's career was an onslaught of MVP calibre seasons with 4-6 ATG years thrown in between. But yeah other than Russell's advantage over any centre in the league for most of his career, Boston often played with an underwhelming supporting cast compared to teams like the Sixers and Lakers.

Russell's supporting cast over the years.

HOFer Bob Cousy
HOFer Frank Ramsey
HOFer Bill Sharman
HOFer Sam Jones
HOFer KC Jones
HOFer Tom Heinsohn
HOFer John Havlicek
HOFer Clyde Lovelette
HOFer Tom "Satch" Sanders
HOFer Don Nelson

Underwhelming? Not sure I would use that word.

Without getting into how Russell dragged a few of those guys into the Hall (go check the player profiles of Sanders, KC and Nelson, they were no world beaters as individuals) as well as the fact that Lovelette was a 9 MPG backup centre when he played with Russell, it was normal to have multiple All-Star teammates back then. Russell played with six different All-Stars totaling 27 selections in 13 years, while West played with eight different players totaling 22 selections in 14 years and Wilt played with 10 different players totaling 24 selections in 14 years.

Russell's teams were powered by his otherworldly defence while he depended on his teammates to spearhead...an average to below average offence. His supporting casts were certainly inferior and underwhelming compared to the loaded '67 and '68 Sixers and the 60s Lakers. Here's a really informative article on how he was the main reason for Boston's success during the decade despite the famous names of his teammates (which they owe to him):
https://backpicks.com/2018/04/02/backpicks-goat-3-bill-russell/

Okay, first off, you need to go to more places to get info on older players because quite honestly, backpicks sucks at it. Second, I got through 75% of that article with hardly a mention regarding those other players and no mention regarding how good they were as compared to the other players of their era.

Sorry to say Somebody, but the rest of the Celtics that Russell played with were playing at the very highest levels of basketball for that era and were not underwhelming. You just are way way off base, to just out right wrong calling that group underwhelming. As to the number of great players Russell played with, well, there was almost no movement of Boston's great players and most stuck in Boston their entire careers, limiting the amount of great players that Russell would play with.

[droopdog7]

Gotta be some empty PR. Hayward’s not even in the top 3 of his own team!

Hayward arguably the best player on the team if healthy.  But that’s the catch of course.  Will he be healthy.

[Phantom255x]

Hayward's biggest issue unfortunately has become his health. But we saw before the fractured hand how good he can be. Maybe he doesn't truly return to his All-Star Utah form, but I think he could still be close to that. On this team with the players we have, Hayward as a "point forward" works super well and the team has great success. Brown and Tatum also benefit from that, and look how they've played lately.

[GreenFaith1819]

Just last night alone dude lead us in assists at 8. That was in only 28 minutes. He didn't shoot particularly well but JB and JT simply took over by then.

Hayward did his damage - got the team started then was not needed.

I saw the NBA TV analysts alluding to a "Love for Hayward" swap. No thanks, please. I love KL but I want to see how far we can go with THIS team.

Furthermore I'm not sure KLove would help us against Embiid - even though I don't think Love is as bad defensively as some think.